Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

And the S-70A how would fit instead in the whole picture?

It is clear in the article that the Su-75 - like the Su-57 -will also have the ability to direct UAV's. The S-70 will be one such UAV. It appears that smaller UAV's will also be part of the internal/external load of both the Su-75 and the Su-57.

You probably know by now that both these aircraft will also be produced as UAV's.

Very nice comparison - esp the price!

That is too generous IMHO.

The last time they offered F-35s for only 85 million dollars it was because it did not include the 30 million dollar engine...

The numbers I have seen range from 110 million through to about 160 million depending on the model.

I would question the payload too... it definitely would not be able to carry a 7.4 ton payload unless it has ten wing pylons...

You probably know by now that both these aircraft will also be produced as UAV's.

That is something I don't think makes sense.

A UAV based on any modern aircraft with the cockpit removed and replaced would be most of the cost to buy and to use a modern fighter which would make it horribly expensive and being mass produced in this case would not reduce the price by enough to make it worth while.

The S-70 is simple enough to be much cheaper and every bit as good as a UAV based on the Su-75 or Su-57.

Yakovlev also promised a drone version of the Yak-130 but it didn't make any sense either.

A drone designed from scratch to be a drone makes much more sense than taking an existing aircraft design and making a drone out of it unless it is an obsolete fighter like a MiG-21 or MiG-23, and they wont be in the slightest stealthy so it probably would not make sense either.

The S-70 in comparison is stealthy and modern and simple which likely makes it about as cheap as you could possibly make it... make lots of them and that is as cheap as you are going to get.

GarryB wrote:

Mir wrote:You probably know by now that both these aircraft will also be produced as UAV's.

That is something I don't think makes sense.

A UAV based on any modern aircraft with the cockpit removed and replaced would be most of the cost to buy and to use a modern fighter which would make it horribly expensive and being mass produced in this case would not reduce the price by enough to make it worth while.

The S-70 is simple enough to be much cheaper and every bit as good as a UAV based on the Su-75 or Su-57.

Yakovlev also promised a drone version of the Yak-130 but it didn't make any sense either.

A drone designed from scratch to be a drone makes much more sense than taking an existing aircraft design and making a drone out of it unless it is an obsolete fighter like a MiG-21 or MiG-23, and they wont be in the slightest stealthy so it probably would not make sense either.

The S-70 in comparison is stealthy and modern and simple which likely makes it about as cheap as you could possibly make it... make lots of them and that is as cheap as you are going to get.

Keep in mind that the S-70 is designed as a single mission strike UAV. It is basically an unmanned tactical strike version of the B-2 and like the strategic bomber it's not very fast.

Both the Su-57 and the Su-75 are high performance multi-role platforms - meaning they can multi-task. The unmanned versions of those fighters will be exactly the same - except they will perform all those missions without a pilot.

The flying wing design is not suitable for air-superiority and fighter roles. The S-70 can be developed into a recce machine, an ECM/ELINT platform or even a tanker for example, but it can not perform any missions that would require high G performance.  

I have reason to believe that the B-21 design would drop like a stone if it has to attempt any high G evasive manouvres.

GarryB wrote:

Honestly I think if the Su-75 lives up to the hype and is good as they suggest then it wont have any problems finding export customers whether the Russian military buys it or not.

The model that MiG showed is much smaller and probably lighter and likely wont be able to fly 3,000km with 7 tons of payload, but it will be small and light and cheap and its AESA radar will be useful and it will be able to carry all the needed ordinance and equipment to do the job and I think it will be cheaper because that is what MiG has been doing for the last 40 years... cheaper light fighters.

In a sense it is the equivalent of an F-16 based on the F-5 so actually cheap but also with a single engine.

And all this you deduced from a plastic model that looks like it was a $15 quick build kit or a toy that comes with kids meal? MiGs exhibition booth at arms fairs are so pathetic, as of lately, that it would be better they never presented anything in the first place. To keep some suspense, as to look like they're working on something special. How mighty have fallen.

Keep in mind that the S-70 is designed as a single mission strike UAV. It is basically an unmanned tactical strike version of the B-2 and like the strategic bomber it's not very fast.

How fast would it need to be to be safe?

A fighter being fast is useful as it can run away, but while it is running away I would think the drones would be trying to stop anything that decides to chase the fighters the drones are supporting.

Equally what sort of manouver ability does a drone need to launch R-37s or a new scramjet powered replacement missile?

And thirdly... if it shares engines with the Su-57 and Su-75 then it appears it will have a thrust vectoring engine which is described as making the Su-75 very manouverable... so why wouldn't it have the same effect on the S-70... in fact even more so because being a drone it is not g limited for human crew so it could pull very high g manouvers to evade incoming threats... instead of using speed.

The unmanned versions of those fighters will be exactly the same - except they will perform all those missions without a pilot.

So a long way off because these unmanned drones are likely to be more expensive than standard aircraft. Why make a drone that can only pull 11-12g... strengthen it and have it to 25-30 g depending on the load out and available fuel levels...

The flying wing design is not suitable for air-superiority and fighter roles.

Thrust vectoring means it can point its nose where it pleases... making it a rather good weapons platform in terms of launching missiles because launching a missile directly at a threat means that missile accelerates towards the target without needing to turn so its control surfaces wont be turning hard and massively bleeding energy at launch when its peak accelerating time is burned up with its first burst of rocket fuel... which is normally the most energetic to give it height and speed to reach its target fastest and hopefully first.

The S-70 can be developed into a recce machine, an ECM/ELINT platform or even a tanker for example, but it can not perform any missions that would require high G performance.

Why? The g limiting factor is usually the pilot and with him removed most aircraft could probably pull 10g all day long. Of course with a pilot on board at 10g the pilot is not much use... they would be just trying to remain conscious and not really contributing to the fight...

I have reason to believe that the B-21 design would drop like a stone if it has to attempt any high G evasive manouvres.

I would argue that it is all wing with no large draggy bits and when it gets to its target area has burned off maybe 30 tons of fuel, so if you replace the 20 ton payload of bombs with 8 tons of AAMs that it would actually have an interesting performance.

It is a big aircraft of course so no high g manouvering but it should be able to point its nose and launch missiles... especially long range AA missiles.

If it wasn't a long range strategic bomber you could make it smaller and much much stronger if that was the goal.

And all this you deduced from a plastic model that looks like it was a $15 quick build kit or a toy that comes with kids meal?

Not at all. The comparison with the F-117 is probably quite solid in that the F-117 was a stealthy subsonic bomb truck with room for 2 laser guided bombs... except the obvious problem is that for a fraction of what they spend developing and building that they could have made two stealthy long range cruise missiles in the tens of thousands and a couple of F-117s with no armament that flew out and found targets for those cruise missiles to hit... the cruise missiles being the wingman drones... essentially.

And all this you deduced from a plastic model that looks like it was a $15 quick build kit or a toy that comes with kids meal? MiGs exhibition booth at arms fairs are so pathetic, as of lately, that it would be better they never presented anything in the first place. To keep some suspense, as to look like they're working on something special. How mighty have fallen.

Nice work... I am wrong, MiG is shit. They used to be great, but have somehow been infected by the west and are now evil and incompetent and living on their former days of glory.

Perhaps tell the Orcs it is OK because those MiG-31s shooting their planes down are shit from a dead company... that will make them feel much better.

@GarryB

You seem to be a man of a thousand words, but unfortunately with very little comprehension. Perhaps you will be able to understand a picture somewhat beter?

Mir wrote:Very nice comparison - esp the price!  

Is it clear if that price (30 millions USD) will be offered to all export customers, or only to those who invest and participate to the development expenses (with serious contributions) before the su-75 is certified?

And, does Sukhoi still need partners to finish the project, or can they do it without any other external support or contribution?

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Is it clear if that price (30 millions USD) will be offered to all export customers, or only to those who invest and participate to the development expenses (with serious contributions) before the su-75 is certified?

It would be really stupid of Sukhoi to advertise the Checkmate for 25-30 million and not be able to deliver it at that price to a customer - don't you think?
It would be as stupid when the Mig-29SMT was sold as "new" but it turned out that most of the parts was actually second hand. Look what happened to MiG since that little fiasco! Do you think Sukhoi would be so stupid as to make the same mistake? Me think not

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
And, does Sukhoi still need partners to finish the project, or can they do it without any other external support or contribution?

India was supposed to be a partner in the PAK-FA program, but they pulled out of the deal. Russia went on their own and created an excellent 5th Gen fighter,  and India have nothing to show.

I'm sure they can do the same with the much cheaper Su-75 Checkmate if they have to - and they probably will.

Mir wrote:India was supposed to be a partner in the PAK-FA program, but they pulled out of the deal. Russia went on their own and created an excellent 5th Gen fighter,  and India have nothing to show.

I'm sure they can do the same with the much cheaper Su-75 Checkmate if they have to - and they probably will.

Yes but that was Russia that wanted to develop the Su-57, not just Sukhoi. I thought that russian air force did not commit on any order for the Su-75 and that russian government did not assign additional budget to sukhoi for the Su-75 development.

And if Sukhoi used for the su-75 money that the russian government gave them for other projects, that could be even considered something like misappropriation of funds.
I do not believe that would sit well with Belusov.

Furthermore, if India did not withdraw from the PAK-FA program, they would probably have access to their version of the Su-57 to a much lower price then normal export customers.

Otherwise there would be no advantages in becoming a developing partner.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

And if Sukhoi used for the su-75 money that the russian government gave them for other projects, that could be even considered something like misappropriation of funds.

If you know the post-Soviet history then you would know that Sukhoi used much of their own funds to develop their fighters. When India ordered their Su-30MK/MKI they did not splash it on expensive holidays in Europe to celebrate - no they re-invested that money into their own business in order to secure Sukhoi's future. Likewise the Su-75 was developed with their own funds. Sukhoi did a great job. Give them some credit. So please stop trying to sweep MiG's corrupt dealings under the carpet by pointing very sticky fingers at Sukhoi. You may just poke out your own eye!

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Furthermore, if India did not withdraw from the PAK-FA program, they would probably  have access  to their version of the Su-57 to a much lower price then normal export customers. Otherwise there would be no advantages in becoming a developing partner.

No not necessarily . What normally happens with these kind off deals (offset deals) is that Sukhoi would re-invest in India by financing assembly facilities and providing jobs as a major bonus. They may also invest in other projects that have virtually nothing to do with the PAK-FA - like education for instance.

You seem to be a man of a thousand words, but unfortunately with very little comprehension. Perhaps you will be able to understand a picture somewhat beter?

I know exactly what he was trying to suggest but he is being a prick so I ignored him.

Before we saw the Su-57 there were glimpses of a plastic model of the aircraft on a desk... I guess that means Sukhoi don't make shit either?

It would be really stupid of Sukhoi to advertise the Checkmate for 25-30 million and not be able to deliver it at that price to a customer - don't you think?

Yeah, Sukhoi never make mistakes... cause they are fucking perfect.

It would be as stupid when the Mig-29SMT was sold as "new" but it turned out that most of the parts was actually second hand.

The letters tell the story... MiG-29S (C in Cyrillic), that is Modernised and had an upgrade that increased the fuel volume (T).

Only a fuckwit would think an aircraft upgrade would be a brand new plane.

One born every minute I guess.

Look what happened to MiG since that little fiasco!

They continued to develop and sell fighter aircraft including MiG-29Ms to Algeria, and MiG-29K to the Russian Navy and MiG-35s to the Russian AF.

Do you think Sukhoi would be so stupid as to make the same mistake?

Sukhoi are spending a lot of money to try to get the Su-75 off the ground so to speak and it literally hasn't happened just yet.

India was supposed to be a partner in the PAK-FA program, but they pulled out of the deal. Russia went on their own and created an excellent 5th Gen fighter,  and India have nothing to show.

They said they would consider buying some off the shelf or creating a joint venture like the Su-30MKI to get the plane they want... but again they will have to pay extra for that and of course all the Indian and French and Israeli parts they add are going to triple the costs.

I'm sure they can do the same with the much cheaper Su-75 Checkmate if they have to - and they probably will.

That is different... the Su-57 had Russian government funding, Checkmate is paid for by Sukhoi... they are taking a huge risk.

I thought that russian air force did not commit on any order for the Su-75 and that russian government did not assign additional budget to sukhoi for the Su-75 development.

That is correct. They said they might take a look at it but it is not their funded programme so they are not obliged one way or another.

And if Sukhoi used for the su-75 money that the russian government gave them for other projects, that could be even considered something like misappropriation of funds.
I do not believe that would sit well with Belusov.

That raises some interesting questions... was it all Sukhoi money from exports, or was it UAC money as well, or did it include money for the Su-57 and S-70 projects...

Furthermore, if India did not withdraw from the PAK-FA program, they would probably have access to their version of the Su-57 to a much lower price then normal export customers.

Part of being part of the design team is being able to make some changes you are interested in... the problem was that they wanted changes but didn't want to pay for those changes out of their pocket. The most famous are increased level of stealth and two seat versions.

Otherwise there would be no advantages in becoming a developing partner.

That does raise the question of why bother when you are not interested in contributing to get what you want and expect Russia to pay for everything.

So please stop trying to sweep MiG's corrupt dealings under the carpet by pointing very sticky fingers at Sukhoi. You may just poke out your own eye! Laughing

MiG is corrupt now is it?

Because the last few years the management of MiG have been Sukhoi people...

GarryB wrote:

Mir wrote:u seem to be a man of a thousand words, but unfortunately with very little comprehension. Perhaps you will be able to understand a picture somewhat beter?

I know exactly what he was trying to suggest but he is being a prick so I ignored him.
Before we saw the Su-57 there were glimpses of a plastic model of the aircraft on a desk... I guess that means Sukhoi don't make shit either?

Sorry but unfortunately you still make no sense at all

GarryB wrote:Yeah, Sukhoi never make mistakes... cause they are fucking perfect.

Wow! Ok great! Good to know you've come back to your senses  

What I do not understand is why Sukhoi is trying so hard to get foreign customers for the Su-75 that is practically offering them a price that is much inferior to current 4th generation fighters, including much cheaper than the JF-17, which is basically a modernised Mig-21 with the engine of the MiG 29 and modern electronics.

It is like not valuing your own products, and that would reinforce the idea that you buy russian only if you want to buy cheap and even Chinese modernised old soviet fighters are better than the new products from Russia.

I do not know if it is Sukhoi or Rostec that is doing it, but it is quite strange.

Mir made earlier the comparison between Ferrari and Skoda I believe.

The issue is: I know that a Ferrari is overpriced and that you really pay the brand as well, but it is really strange when even the old Skoda that should be much worse than your model and sold by a relatively new company with a worse brand than yours (the JF-17) costs twice as much as your new product which is supposed to be better in everything.

It makes you suspicious and doubt if it is actually too good to be true.
Furthermore it reinforces the impression that russian products are not bought because they are good, but just because they are dirty cheap that you cannot even afford the chinese knock-offs.


I know that in the past it was different, but now I believe that Mig and Sukhoi should not be allowed to bid independently for foreign contracts or to offer something competing against each other without this being agreed at higher level (I.e. russian government level).

Competing for russian internal contracts? Yes please.
Competing for foreign customers by doing price dumping against each other? Hell no!

What I do not understand is why Sukhoi is trying so hard to get foreign customers for the Su-75 that is practically offering them a price that is much inferior to current 4th generation fighters, including much cheaper than the JF-17, which is basically a modernised Mig-21 with the engine of the MiG 29 and modern electronics.

Probably the same reason they sent those ungrateful dirty nasty backstabbing Europeans cheap gas energy with all the other useful impurities in it that Europe could extract and create things with for such a cheap price.... and offering even lower prices for very long term contracts.

They want to make money with volume and support contracts, while making a good aircraft affordable to their less well off partners.

It is like not valuing your own products, and that would reinforce the idea that you buy russian only if you want to buy cheap and even Chinese modernised old soviet fighters are better than the new products from Russia.

Or it could be they respect their customers trying to defend their own countries on a budget and don't want to charge 10 times over price to make a quick buck.

It makes you suspicious and doubt if it is actually too good to be true.

But when everything checks out and they are not screwing you over... stealing your gold or lithium or coffee beans or Uranium, then you become a loyal customer.

Competing for russian internal contracts? Yes please.
Competing for foreign customers by doing price dumping against each other? Hell no!

The issue is that as far as I am aware that Sukhoi has the right to negotiate its contracts AFAIK while other companies have to make sales through Rosboronexport.

From what we have seen of Mikoyan's project it appears to be a glorified trainer, atleast the Su75 should be able to carry a basic payload.

The-thing-next-door wrote:From what we have seen of Mikoyan's project it appears to be a glorified trainer, atleast the Su75 should be able to carry a basic payload.

It's a light fighter with internal bays. Exactly what you need to have in mass. 2-4 missiles and enough range to operate far away front front line MLRS and drones. It can also do any mission including tactical missile attacks against land targets or ships with cruise missiles which is very important.

Mig-29 as shown in Ukraine need to operate in airfield that can be attacked by Lancet because mig-29 range is quite small normally and very small when you need to fly low all the time to evade S-400.

The-thing-next-door wrote:From what we have seen of Mikoyan's project it appears to be a glorified trainer, atleast the Su75 should be able to carry a basic payload.

There are two different things:

The trainer is the MiG-UTS, basically a single engine derivative of the old MiG-AT project. It is a cheap and simple intermediate trainer to replace the L-39 and to be used before the pilots are ready for the Yak-130 advanced trainer.

It was mentioned first at the end of 2023. It will be a simple but important project.

The other one is a potential twin engine fighter mentioned during MAKS-2021.
I do not know how realistic is this project and if they are going to receive any orders from the russian navy.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/07/russian-company-mig-unveils-a-new-5th-generation-carrier-born-fighter-project/

https://www.navalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Migs-5th-generation-carrier-based-fighter-project.jpg

The company is working on a promising fifth-generation fighter, which will be made using stealth technology. Now there is a stage of computer modeling, the first prototypes of the machine are planned to be released in the next few years.”

“The possibility of creating a version of the fighter with vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL) is also considered within the framework of the project. It is expected that the aircraft wil be as big as the MiG-35.”

During the same event MiG also presented a potential single engine fighter.

Finally, a few years ago they it was mentioned that Russia (Yakovlev) was developing a modern VTOL fighter.

I could not find any modern news on either the future VTOL fighter from Yak, or the new carrier borne twin engine fighter from MiG.

The-thing-next-door wrote:From what we have seen of Mikoyan's project it appears to be a glorified trainer, atleast the Su75 should be able to carry a basic payload.

Why can't we expect it to be in the same category and level as the F-35?  Or even better?

Because of its projected price?  It's projected intention to be only an export platform?

I would think Sukhoi would want to compete with what's perceived as the best competition out there, no?

Let's face it, the first thing anyone who follows this stuff thought about at the realization that Russia was intending on developing the Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyet (LMFS) or Light Multi-Function Frontline Aircraft was that it was all about answering the competition, right?  

To counter the F-35 since the Su-57 was the answer to the F-22 Raptor, it only made all the sense in the world to make the Su-75 Checkmate the answer to the F-35.  Or is there another reason to build this aircraft and set the bar low for expectations?  Or is it not about the bar being set low for expectations but rather that is the intended goal of the aircraft, to make it a simple, affordable, stealthy platform that can serve certain purposes but is not intended to be a major, technological wonder and asset to the VKS?  I'm only asking and not trying to ruffle any feathers just FYI.  Intentions are honest and honorable here - disclaimer ahead of any possible freakout.

All the history of developments between the United States and Russia (Soviet Union) from the following day of the end of WWII and especially through the cold war, extending into post Soviet Union collapse and the emergence of Vladimir Putin and his rebuilding of Russian prowess in the military industry to the remarkable development of the Su-57 and the amount of money & time & effort put into that project to specifically counter the emergence of the F-22 Raptor and all of a sudden all of that line of thinking is abandoned for some obscure, affordable, minimally capable platform in the Su-75 Checkmate?  Makes absolutely no sense.

GarryB wrote:
Nice work... I am wrong, MiG is shit. They used to be great, but have somehow been infected by the west and are now evil and incompetent and living on their former days of glory.

Perhaps tell the Orcs it is OK because those MiG-31s shooting their planes down are shit from a dead company... that will make them feel much better.

MiG indeed turned to shit, owing to bad management. Remind me, did they try to deliver Algerians second hand parts as new and then try to get out of the situation by lying?
MiG-31 is a great plane, from the time MiG was a great establishment, run by proper people. In the last 30 years, they've managed to **** it all up, great name and reputation.[/quote]

Gomig-21 wrote: 
To counter the F-35 since the Su-57 was the answer to the F-22 Raptor, it only made all the sense in the world to make the Su-75 Checkmate the answer to the F-35.

Absolutely, and it has been stated numerous times (in the above article as well) by Sukhoi, that the Su-75 has been indeed developed as direct competition to the F-35. There is no doubt that the Checkmate's unit price is extremely competitive vs other fighters in the global market. From what I can gather here and also elsewhere the competition is completely overwhelmed and in shock when they see the price tag. They don't believe it - or it's impossible - or it's just an outright lie! It is even expected that operational cost per hour of the new Sukhoi fighter will be six to seven times lower than that of the F-35.

The whole ******* point of this light fighter is to blow the competition away. As they say in the article - "Checkmate!"

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Is it clear if that price (30 millions USD) will be offered to all export customers, or only to those who invest and participate to the development expenses (with serious contributions) before the su-75 is certified?

And, does Sukhoi still need partners to finish the project, or can they do it without any other external support or contribution?

Its an unofficial graphic. No one will sell a 5th gen fighter for $30 or even $60 million.

 

It may be unofficial graphics (from TASS actually ) but the official statements from Sukhoi confirms those figures since 2021.

These two guys should be able to confirm it if you want to give them a call.


Yuri Slyusar, General Director of the United Aircraft Corporation, and Alexey Bulatov, Deputy Chief Designer of the Checkmate aircraft (from left to right).

Except Rosoboronexport has the exclusive rights to sell the planes. Sukhoi can magic their way into cheap 5th gen jets, the Russian government will just pump the margins even higher.