Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+35
PhSt
ALAMO
TMA1
JohninMK
Isos
wilhelm
Swgman_BK
Arrow
par far
Kiko
Hole
GarryB
Tsavo Lion
thegopnik
T-47
mnztr
Gazputin
Firebird
Broski
kvs
LMFS
Backman
owais.usmani
limb
franco
Dr.Snufflebug
Sprut-B
Krepost
caveat emptor
George1
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
Scorpius
ludovicense
sepheronx
lancelot
39 posters

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40438
    Points : 40938
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:51 am

    Crucially, the SSJ-100 jettisons a previous reliance on Western-made parts and systems in an import substitution program that tracks China’s C919

    The plane is made nearly completly of western parts.

    I read that to mean that the efforts and changes the Russians made to the SSJ-100 to convert it from a mostly made with western parts aircraft to an all Russian parts aircraft could also be applied to Chinas C919 project... in other words Russia could help China by replacing all the western parts on the aircraft with Russian parts that wont be sanctioned.

    With the Cr929 news, will Russia be able to make a long range passenger plane?

    I would say with the internal distances within their own country that most of their passenger planes should be capable of long range flight...
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:50 am

    https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/il-96-als-zweistrahler-comeack-fuer-russlands-groessten-airliner/

    FROM FOUR-JET TO TWO-JET
    This is how Russia imagines the Ilyushin Il-96neo

    With four engines, Russia's largest airliner was a flop - the Ilyushin Il-96 always remained a marginal phenomenon. Modernized to a twin-jet aircraft, state-owned company Rostec sees a new opportunity for the Il-96. However, with restrictions.

    Patrick Zwerger
    October 21, 2023

    The latest addition to the small Il-96 family has still not flown - and is still technically outdated. The Ilyushin Il-96-400M , which celebrated its roll-out in Ulyanovsk in July after an almost endless construction period , has (slightly) better engines than the standard version Il-96-300. But there are still four, and not two, as is usual for wide-body airliners today. You may find this anachronism somehow pleasant, but it is not particularly suitable for the future. And we know that in Russia too. At the same time, the fate of the CRAIC CR929 twin jet planned with China is more than unclear after the Russians have withdrawn to the second line in the project and only want to act as a supplier.

    Make two out of four
    Various representatives from politics and industry in Russia therefore repeatedly speculated about a possible conversion of the Il-96 into a twin-engine aircraft. A suitable engine for such an “Il-96neo” is currently being developed : the Awiadwigatel PD-35 . The fact that the large turbofan is currently not expected to be ready for series production until 2029 at the earliest is not particularly disturbing in this context. After all, the modification to a twinjet on the Il-96 would probably not be possible without time-consuming changes to the design. The wings would probably have to be redesigned accordingly to accommodate the new engines. Theoretically, it would even be conceivable to have wings made of carbon fiber , like those used on the (much smaller) Yakovlev MS-21.

    “Not efficient enough”
    In a conversation with the Russian daily Izvestia , published on October 12, Rostec General Director Sergei Chemezov once again fueled speculation about a twin-engine Il-96. The issue remains “on the agenda,” emphasized Chemezov. However, there are currently no plans for mass production on a large scale, but rather smaller editions for Russian government aviation and for cargo transport are being considered. The head of Rostec did not say whether this was primarily about building new aircraft or rather about converting used Il-96s. However, Chemezov emphasized to Izvestia that the four-engine Il-96 is "not efficient enough" in long-term operation - not even as a freighter.

    Bigger and stronger
    The PD-35 engine, designed specifically for the CRAIC CR929, will deliver around 340 kilonewtons of thrust once completed. That would be more than twice what one of the PS-90A engines currently used on the Il-96-300 produces. The PS-90A has a maximum thrust of 160 kN. The further developed version PS-90A1 for the Il-96-400M achieves a little more at 171 kN. With a planned fan diameter of over three meters, the PD-35 would also be significantly larger than the PS-90A, whose fan diameter is only 1.90 meters.

    What aerotelegraph is writing about limited production is from this Izvestia article

    But it does not make any sense

    https://iz.ru/1588513/2023-10-12/glava-rostekha-rasskazal-o-naznachenii-modernizirovannykh-il-96
    The head of Rostec spoke about the purpose of the modernized Il-96
    Head of Rostec: the project to create modernized Il-96s remains on the agenda

    12 October 2023, 18:11

    The modernized Il-96 aircraft with two engines are planned to be produced primarily for cargo transportation and the needs of the “Special Flight Detachment “Russia” (SLO). Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov announced this on October 12.

    He noted that the project to create modernized IL-96s with two engines remains on the agenda.

    “Most likely, we do not plan to mass produce [the IL-96 with two engines]. They will be produced, as a rule, to order from airlines and special flight squads. In general, most likely, they will be used for transport aircraft, for transporting cargo,” Chemezov said.

    According to him, now the Il-96, equipped with PS-90 engines, is not efficient enough for commercial air carriers.

    At the same time, he noted that work on the Russian heavy aircraft engine PD-35 continues and software for designing these engines is currently being created. However, Chemezov did not specify the timing of its creation.

    My interpretation is that what Sergei Chemezov said was about the existing quadjets il-96-300 and il-96-400M.

    The journalists (including those from Izvestia) are quite famous for misinterpreting what is being said and going off on their own conjectures (and often are then quoted by other newspaper or websites)
    .

    Russia has absolutely need of a domestic widebody.
    When the new twin engine widebody will be ready there will be enough orders.
    What will be produced, in the meanwhile, in limited serie (probably not more than 1 or 2 per year) are the existing 4 engine versions of the il-96.

    This is at least enough to maintain competences while the new aircraft is developed.

    By the way, the new aircraft will not be a il-96 but a twin engine widebody based on the il-96.

    The differences will be larger than the differences between the 4 engines Airbus A340 and the 2 engine Airbus A330

    The kind of changes needed to move from a 4 engine aircraft to a 2 engine aircraft require a brand new type certificate, not just an update and minor change to it.

    It will most probably have a new commercial name.
    It could be il-296-X00 but I really doubt it will be il-96-Y00 (by X and y I mean any possible numeral from 1 to 9).

    Such new widebody will also have new wings (probably composite wings with the same technology as those of the MC-21 and highly probably a parallel development and very similar to the wings proposed for the CR-929), PD-35 engines,  brand new avionics and modern internal systems derived from those of the smaller MC-21 and from those proposed for the CR929.

    I can probably imagine also that the cabin will have much more things in common with the MC-21 than with the existing il-96.

    This new widebody aircraft will not have anything to envy from the modern Boeing and Airbus widebodies.

    The only "old" part of this aircraft will probably be the fuselage, but it is already good enough and a decent mixture of metal alloys and composite (as are the airbus A330 and Boeing 777).

    GarryB, dino00, kvs and LMFS like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 3120
    Points : 3116
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:16 am

    I thought the Il-96 fuselage was based on that of the Il-86? At this point you would think they would design a new fuselage as well.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:29 pm

    lancelot wrote:I thought the Il-96 fuselage was based on that of the Il-86? At this point you would think they would design a new fuselage as well.
    The design yes, as the design of every Boeing and Airbus plane is also based on what came earlier.
    But I believe they already introduced some technical and material improvements from the il-86 to the il-96 fuselage. If not, well they could also think about developing something new as well, since they would have anyway to organise a brand new serial manufacturing of it. It depends how much time that new fuselage development and testing would require and by when they need the new aircraft to be available.

    Actually Boeing had a new fuselage design for the 777X.
    Russia could do the same for the new twin engine widebody, but this will of course require more time (even if it should allow for better manufacturing techniques and eventual cost saving.

    By the way, the Il-96 fuselage is already one of the wider in the market, only narrower of the one or the boeing 777 (except of course the Jumbos 747 and a380).

    Il-96
    6.08 m (19.94 ft) diameter, 5.70 m (18.70 ft) cabin width.

    To have some comparisons with other widebodies


    A350
    The cabin's internal width is 5.61 m (18.4 ft) at armrest level compared to 5.49 m (18.0 ft) in the Boeing 787 and 5.87 m (19.3 ft) in the Boeing 777.

    A350 fuselage 5.96 m (19.6 ft) width, 6.09 m (19.98 ft) height
    Max cabin width 5.61

    From wikipedia

    The A350 cabin is 12.7 cm (5.0 in) wider at the eye level of a seated passenger than the 787's cabin, and 28 cm (11 in) narrower than the Boeing 777's cabin .

    Apparently there is also a new cabin configuration 10 cm wider (5.71 m)

    https://www.businessinsider.com/airbus-created-cabin-10-seats-across-versus-9-boeing-777x-2022-10#the-move-is-part-of-the-manufacturers-new-production-standard-launched-at-the-end-of-september-which-also-improves-performance-and-reduces-weight-3

    A777X fuselage
    20 ft 4 in (6.20 m) fuselage[d], 19 ft 7 in (5.96 m) interior



    A330 is even narrower, with cabin internal width of 5.28 m (17 ft 4 in) and fuselage external width of 5.64m.

    Here there is a useful table with internal size comparison between different widebodies.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide-body_aircraft#Comparison


    So at the end it is highly possible that Russia could pursue two different projects in parallel.

    One that is a twin engine version of the il-96, with just a new wing (possibly metal with some use of composites (like the current il -96 wing) and reusing most of the internal systems already existing in the il-96-400M, including the same cockpit.
    This will be ready before the end of decade (as soon as the PD-35 engines are available) and it will produced in limited number for passenger transport, but will see also other Military and government derivatives, in addition to civilian cargo usage.

    And the latter is a brand new civilian widebody, made using the same technology developments of the MC-21, benefitting of course from the experience of the il-96 development, but made under the Yakovlev brand and with a cockpit similar to that of the MC-21.
    This could be ready after 2030.

    In practice, it will be a similar relation to Tu-204 vs MC-21 and would explain the words of Rostec General Director Sergei Chemezov quoted in my previous post.
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15821
    Points : 15956
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  kvs Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:13 pm

    "flop" was it? Western scumbags can't help but wank their racist supremacist fiction in public. They have to engage in cope 24/7 since
    the know subconsciously that they are inadequate.

    The four-engine variants were perfectly fine. Soviet aircraft were not designed to squeeze out maximal profits for corporations. More
    fuel consumption is not a metric of failure. Two engines are more dangerous than four engines and this will always be true. If you can
    improve the reliability of the engines used for two-engine variants, you can do the same for four-engine variants. So the reliability
    argument is irrelevant.

    Russia should upgrade the engines instead of running around pandering to western "standards". Just like the Tu-214 revival has been justified,
    so too is a revival of the Il-96 without any form "upgrades". Russia has the fuel needed to offset the marginal cost of higher fuel consumption.

    If the question is entering into the global market, then a composite wing two-engine Il-96 is a good project. But it should not be the only
    choice for the Il-96. The domestic market needs new aircraft and not delays.

    The joint project with China appears to be a flop or maybe I am not properly informed.

    GarryB, LMFS, Hole and Broski like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11099
    Points : 11077
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Hole Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:26 pm

    Russia withdrew from the project as a partner and will from now on only deliver stuff as supplier.
    Reason 1: Chinese insisted on tech transfer, including the future PD-35 engine.
    Reason 2: Chinese are sill using a lot of western "partners" for a lot of parts of the plane, Russia was against that.

    GarryB, kvs, Rodion_Romanovic, LMFS, lancelot, Kiko and Broski like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 3120
    Points : 3116
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:17 pm

    The Tu-204 and Il-96 were great designs when they came out. You just need to look at contemporary aircraft like the Boeing 757, or the Airbus A340. The problem was the PS-90 engines back then had low lifetime. They still had not fixed that. This meant they had expensive maintenance. And then there is the fact you needed the third crewman i.e. the flight engineer due to lack of automation. Which further increased operational costs. The West also supplied these aircraft via leases, and back then Aeroflot did not have a lot of money to buy whole new aircraft. At the same time the government did not provide leasing alternatives for Russian aircraft.

    As for the Chinese C929 it is planned to use a lot of Western components in initial versions just like the C919. It will likely initially use a Rolls-Royce engine. The Chinese plan to make their own engine eventually, the CJ-2000, but that will likely only happen in like 2030 or later. The Chinese do not want to make a pure Chinese-Russian aircraft without any Western components because they think this will delay the introduction into service of the aircraft.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:33 pm

    Hole wrote:Russia withdrew from the project as a partner and will from now on only deliver stuff as supplier.
    Reason 1: Chinese insisted on tech transfer, including the future PD-35 engine.
    Reason 2: Chinese are sill using a lot of western "partners" for a lot of parts of the plane, Russia was against that.
    China, for the existing civilian projects (ARJ-21 and C919) is behaving like the Brasilian Embraer, that means that they are responsible only for producing the fuselage, some of the aircraft structures and aerosurfaces and the final assembly. Almost the totality of the aircraft systems are imported (an higher amount of foreign imported components than the original SSJ-100). For the CR929 almost the same was planned.

    The proposed new generation Chinese engines being developed now have on paper good performances. We will see if this is just wishful thinking (as it was for the characteristic of the Antonov aircrafts after Ukrainian independence ) or if they actually manage to do more than just copy old soviet engines.

    xeno, kvs, Hole, Backman and Broski like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 3120
    Points : 3116
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:51 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The proposed new generation Chinese engines being developed now have on paper good performances. We will see if this is just wishful thinking (as it was for the characteristic of the Antonov aircrafts after Ukrainian independence ) or if they actually manage to do more than just copy old soviet engines.
    The Chinese already have the WS-20 turbofan, which is a clone of the CFM56, based on the WS-10 military engine core flying on the Y-20 transport aircraft.
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 588p1e10

    The CJ-1000 engine with 14tf for the C919 is flying in a Y-20 test aircraft right now. I already discussed this news here before.
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Ed1a3910

    The Chinese also have plans for a smaller variant of this engine called the CJ-500 with 8-9tf (for the ARJ21) and a larger variant called the CJ-2000 with 35tf (for the C929).

    The CJ-500/1000/2000 series is supposed to be a purely civilian engine family development. In addition to this there is an engine being developed as a competitor to the CJ-1000 based on the WS-15 military engine core. This has been called the SF-A.

    As for if or when this CJ series will ever get into service who knows. Optimistically the CJ-1000 could enter service in 2 years. But it took the Chinese 9 years from starting flight tests of the WS-20 on an Il-76 test platform until its entry into serial production and getting put on to an actual serial aircraft. So who knows.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40438
    Points : 40938
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:16 am

    Russia has absolutely need of a domestic widebody.
    When the new twin engine widebody will be ready there will be enough orders.
    What will be produced, in the meanwhile, in limited serie (probably not more than 1 or 2 per year) are the existing 4 engine versions of the il-96.

    A big part of aircraft design is fashion, and can largely be discounted most of the time... the Il-96 and Tu-204 were good solid aircraft and the only reason they were not produced in greater numbers was 5th columnists within Russian airline industries that were actively trying to crush Russian aerospace production and competitiveness... the western stuff they ended up buying wasn't even cheaper, and now sanctions make them no longer an option Russia really needs to look at filling the gaps the west has created for them.

    These same gaps are there for countries around the world so there is a huge market to sell products for.

    I thought the Il-96 fuselage was based on that of the Il-86? At this point you would think they would design a new fuselage as well.

    There was nothing wrong with the Il-86s fuselage... designing and making new fuselages is a waste of time and money. Design some new aircraft types sure, but for existing types it really only makes sense to look at new wings and new engines.

    Russia should upgrade the engines instead of running around pandering to western "standards". Just like the Tu-214 revival has been justified,
    so too is a revival of the Il-96 without any form "upgrades". Russia has the fuel needed to offset the marginal cost of higher fuel consumption.

    They have gone to the expense of a new range of engines in the PD series so fuel consumption might actually be better than on western types on which the PS90s were developed with.

    The problem was the PS-90 engines back then had low lifetime. They still had not fixed that.

    They were also a fraction of the price of western engines.

    This meant they had expensive maintenance.

    If you maintained them in the west, yes, but not in Russia.

    And then there is the fact you needed the third crewman i.e. the flight engineer due to lack of automation. Which further increased operational costs.

    And that is just bullshit. Saving the expensive of an extra wage for the flight sounds great till you are wanting to take off at an international airport and your takeoff departure time is in 15 minutes and there are only two of you to make all the pre takeoff checks and communicate with the tower. Aeroflot found that aircraft with larger crews could get earlier departure slots because they got through their checks faster with more people working on them... they are able to get through lists faster when they work together. The extra crewman means it is more likely you can engineer a crew where at least one of them speaks the local language which can be very useful too.

    Fewer crew can sometimes just mean a bigger work load, which means mistakes are more likely.

    The West also supplied these aircraft via leases, and back then Aeroflot did not have a lot of money to buy whole new aircraft. At the same time the government did not provide leasing alternatives for Russian aircraft.

    You mean when Russia transitioned from communism where everything is government owned to capitalism where everything is privately owned that westerners often got themselves onto boards of companies because of their "expertise" in the field and they used their positions to destroy everything they could that was Russian and promote western stuff as superior and value for money.

    Fortunately Russia is having a really good house clean now mostly because of the west leaving, but there is still a lot to do.

    kvs, Rodion_Romanovic, Hole and Broski like this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 23, 2023 10:17 am

    GarryB wrote:
    And then there is the fact you needed the third crewman i.e. the flight engineer due to lack of automation. Which further increased operational costs.

    And that is just bullshit. Saving the expensive of an extra wage for the flight sounds great till you are wanting to take off at an international airport and your takeoff departure time is in 15 minutes and there are only two of you to make all the pre takeoff checks and communicate with the tower. Aeroflot found that aircraft with larger crews could get earlier departure slots because they got through their checks faster with more people working on them... they are able to get through lists faster when they work together. The extra crewman means it is more likely you can engineer a crew where at least one of them speaks the local language which can be very useful too.

    Fewer crew can sometimes just mean a bigger work load, which means mistakes are more likely.

    Actually I am quite scared by the idea that some western
    Airlines are trying to lobby the certification authorities (FAA and EASA) in order to approve the idea of having only one pilot with an "electronic copilot".
    Of course now it is impossible to think about this, but ...
    GarryB wrote:
    The West also supplied these aircraft via leases, and back then Aeroflot did not have a lot of money to buy whole new aircraft. At the same time the government did not provide leasing alternatives for Russian aircraft.

    You mean when Russia transitioned from communism where everything is government owned to capitalism where everything is privately owned that westerners often got themselves onto boards of companies because of their "expertise" in the field and they used their positions to destroy everything they could that was Russian and promote western stuff as superior and value for money.

    Fortunately Russia is having a really good house clean now mostly because of the west leaving, but there is still a lot to do.
    Yeah we already discussed about this. When they came out the Tu-204 and il-96 were good aircrafts. The PS-90 engines would have only needed some additional improvements in order to extend the time on wings and possibly to increase efficiency (as the efficiency of the CFM56 was improved across the years).

    By the way, sometimes also western engines when they are certified have a very limited time between overhaul, often due to the life limited parts like compressor and turbine discs. This is then improved before the entry into service and sometimes also later.
    Not always is redesign needed, sometimes only proper detailed analysis (fatigue life, damage tolerance, etc) supported by expensive rig (full components and material specimens) tests.

    Of course in order to do that you need to have money. Unfortunately while Russia inherited 2 good aircraft projects and a good engine (soviet union paid fully for the initial development of the PS-90 engine) then no further improvements could be founded in Eltsin's time thanks to people like Gaidar and Chubais.

    By the way, the russian aircraft and engine industry of the 1990s would not have needed to dedicate any state funding for it. Almost everything was already done. It just needed that the revenues from the flying hours would be reinvested in it. Of course having Aeroflot and the new private airlines buying only foreign aircraft has made that impossible.

    GarryB, kvs, Hole and lancelot like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40438
    Points : 40938
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:25 pm

    PS-90 was a placeholder anyway because they were working on a scalable range of engines from about a PD-8 to a PD-50... not all of which would be realised any time soon if at all but it was to be a family of modern efficient engines that should be rather standardised and affordable and widely used on Russian equipment and systems...

    The Il-96 would be efficient with modern PD-22s or an upgraded and improved D-18TM... it would not matter if it used four of them.

    Reliability is just as important as the number of engines you are using.

    For very large aircraft like the Il-96 the new engines might be very very reliable but the comparison between a twin engine and a four engined aircraft is that if the twin has a single engine failure it is in trouble and might struggle to stay airborne at high weights... say it just took off and got a bird strike and had to shut down an engine, it would have to dump an enormous amount of fuel before it could land anywhere... with four engines and no obvious fire or serious structural damage you keep flying.

    One of the main reasons the B-52 has 8 engines and even with new engines will still have 8 engines is so engine failure wont be a problem... a very big aircraft with only two very powerful engines loses an engine might lose a wing because it can't take flying with assymetrical thrust like that... whereas with 8 engines if it loses two engines it is still not a problem.

    Some say the new engines are so reliable you can take away two engines and just have two, well you don't always get to pick and choose which engines you lose and if you lose four engines on an 8 engined aircraft you might still be able to fly unless the shutdown engines are all on the same side...

    Not to mention you only have two engines when you shut one down you might struggle with electrical power on board with all those computers that fly the plane to keep them still running...

    kvs likes this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11099
    Points : 11077
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Hole Mon Oct 23, 2023 1:17 pm

    Fewer crew can sometimes just mean a bigger work load, which means mistakes are more likely.
    There are airports out there where you need a third crewman for landings.
    Even the "sophisticated" western planes are obliged to carry an extra pair of eyes and hands.

    GarryB and kvs like this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Oct 23, 2023 1:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    One of the main reasons the B-52 has 8 engines and even with new engines will still have 8 engines is so engine failure wont be a problem... a very big aircraft with only two very powerful engines loses an engine might lose a wing because it can't take flying with assymetrical thrust like that... whereas with 8 engines if it loses two engines it is still not a problem.

    Actually they remained with 8 engines because they are not building new b52, they are just replacing the engines on existing aircrafts.

    There were discussions in the past about modernising the B52 with 4 engines from narrowbody airliners like the V2500 or the CFM56 of the A320 and Boeing 737 but that would have required brand new wings.

    If US was going to build new B52 then they would hav for sure modified the wings in order to allow the installation of different engines.

    Installing smaller business jet engines allowed Beoing to put them side by side reusing the existing pylons. Furthermore those business jet engines were already installed on the side of the fuselage in their original applications (Gulfstream 650) so it was easier to adapt them in comparison to powerplants installed under th wings.

    In addition in the B52 the 2 engines in the  same pylon are so close to each other than damage to one engine may also cause damage to the engine next to it.

    GarryB wrote:Some say the new engines are so reliable you can take away two engines and just have two, well you don't always get to pick and choose which engines you lose and if you lose four engines on an 8 engined aircraft you might still be able to fly unless the shutdown engines are all on the same side...

    Not to mention you only have two engines when you shut one down you might struggle with electrical power on board with all those computers that fly the plane to keep them still running...

    Actually for the electrical power usually there is an APU (auxiliary power unit), that is a smaller gas turbine, usually in the back of the aircraft used to provide electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic power on the ground, when the main engines are off, to allow to start the main engines without external pneumatic power and to provide emergency electrical, pneumatic and hydraulic power in flight in case of problem with the main engines.

    kvs and lancelot like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40438
    Points : 40938
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 24, 2023 2:04 am

    If US was going to build new B52 then they would hav for sure modified the wings in order to allow the installation of different engines.

    Sounds a bit dubious though, if you have two engines on a single pylon and replace it with a single engine that is twice as powerful as either of the two engines it replaces then why would you need a new wing?

    The only difference is that with a single engine loss you are looking at the equivalent of the bigger engine being limited to half power, whereas with one engine it is like a double engine loss, but even still it should not require a completely new wing.

    kvs likes this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Oct 24, 2023 10:03 am

    Flight test of MC-21 with PD-14 engines should start next month

    https://aviation21.ru/aleksandr-inozemcev-v-noyabre-dekabre-tri-samolyota-s-pd-14-budut-letat-na-sertifikaciyu-ms-21-310rus/

    Alexander Inozemtsev: in November-December, three aircraft with PD-14 will fly for certification of MS-21-310RUS

    20.10.2023, 13:11  7,642

    Russian President Vladimir Putin and General Designer of UEC-Aviadvigatel Alexander Inozemtsev discussed engines for civil and military transport aviation – PD-14 and PD-35 – at a meeting on October 19 in Perm. Alexander Inozemtsev told the president about the current state of certification of the MS-21 aircraft with Russian engines.

    “Today there are three MS-21 aircraft flying. Two, the second is now being completed in Irkutsk, will arrive in November-December. Thus, three MS-21 aircraft fly with serial PD-14 engines,” –saidAlexander Inozemtsev at the beginning of the conversation in the presence of the press.

    Apparently, the general designer had in mind the experimental MS-21 aircraft with tail numbers 73055 and 73057, which are currently in Irkutsk for the conversion of aircraft systems under the import substitution program. And also the first prototype - 73051, which underwent remotorization from PW1400G to PD-14 in the second half of 2022. Aircraft 73057 (the wing is made of Russian PCM, previously had registration 73361) is currently undergoing re-engining from American engines to PD-14. Thus, within the time frame specified by Alexander Inozemtsev, aircraft with tail numbers 73051, 73055 and 73057 - all with PD-14 engines - will be involved in certification tests.

    The general designer of ODK-Aviadvigatel also informed the president that a total of eight PD-14 engines were created in Perm at the ODK-Perm Motors enterprise, with plans to produce 12 engines next year, and 24 engines in 2025.

    “The pace is such that the eyes are afraid, but the hands are busy,” commented the designer. Inozemtsev also said that the main task for the next few years is to quickly eliminate problems with the PD-14, which will certainly appear with the start of commercial operation of the aircraft. At the same time, it is necessary to improve the PD-14, modernize it, while simultaneously increasing the production of new engines.

    “Our task now - of course, at the beginning of operation there will be “childhood diseases”, there is no other way - to quickly eliminate them, modernize them, and improve them. These are the tasks for the next few years with a simultaneous increase in production volume. This is the situation today regarding PD-14,” said Alexander Inozemtsev.

    Next, without the press, there was a discussion of the PD-35 high-thrust engine.

    GarryB, kvs, LMFS and Hole like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 3120
    Points : 3116
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  lancelot Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:47 pm

    Yakovlev received the first set of domestic avionics for the MS-21
    27.10.2023

    The Radioelectronic Technologies Corporation (KRET) handed over to Yakovlev PJSC the first set of fully Russian avionics for the cockpit of the MC-21-310 aircraft - aircraft systems control panels and lighting equipment. Domestic avionics fully comply with foreign equipment, which is installed on the certified version of MS-21-300. This was reported by the press service of Rostec.

    The Ulyanovsk Instrument Design Bureau (UKBP, part of KRET) has developed and launched the production of Russian equipment to create a unified information and control field for the MS-21 cockpit. The company has created a remote control that allows you to control hydraulic, fuel, inertial, anti-icing systems, fire protection systems, air conditioning, speed measurement, as well as other actuators of the aircraft.

    In addition, the lighting equipment inside the cockpit has also become completely domestic: from floor lighting and general lighting to signal displays.

    “Even before the start of the SVO, the MS-21 project became the target of Western sanctions. KRET has replaced a large number of foreign components for avionics and has already begun supplying the latest avionics for the start of bench testing, as well as assembly of the MC-21,” commented Oleg Yevtushenko, executive director of Rostec.

    MS-21 will be the first domestic aircraft equipped with an integrated set of on-board equipment, which was created on the basis of KRET developments.

    https://aviation21.ru/yakovlev-poluchil-pervyj-komlekt-otechestvennoj-avioniki-dlya-ms-21/

    KRET is completing the development of avionics for the SJ-100, the equipment will replace the avionics of the French Thales
    12.10.2023

    Concern "Radio-Electronic Technologies" (KRET) has begun certification of avionics equipment (avionics) for the SJ-100 aircraft; work on import substitution is entering the home stretch. Rostec executive director Oleg Yevtushenko spoke about this.

    “The previous version of the aircraft used avionics from the French company Thales Avionics. All modern domestic solutions in the field of on-board computer systems were integrated into the third generation avionics for the domestic civil airliner by specialists from the Zhukovsky branch of the Ramensky instrument-making design bureau KRET. Large-scale work is underway to replace components, assemblies and systems of the SJ-100,” commented the press service of the United Aircraft Corporation.

    “The development of Russian aircraft avionics is carried out by the cooperation of radio-electronic industry enterprises, led by KRET. With this work we are entering the home stretch. Today, designers are finalizing the equipment in accordance with the comments received following testing of the imported SJ-100 in August of this year. At the same time, documentation for avionics certification is being prepared. The new airliner, including its avionics, has become the embodiment of the advanced developments of the domestic aviation industry, a demonstration of Russia’s technological independence,” said Oleg Yevtushenko.

    When creating a digital complex of flight and navigation equipment, the developers relied on the existing experience in creating and successfully operating similar systems for the Il-96-300, Tu-204/214, Il-114, Be-200 aircraft and their modifications, the UAC added.

    https://aviation21.ru/kret-zavershaet-razrabotku-breo-dlya-sj-100-oborudovanie-zamenit-avioniku-francuzskoj-thales/

    GarryB, Rodion_Romanovic, Sprut-B, Dr.Snufflebug, LMFS and Hole like this post

    avatar
    Dr.Snufflebug


    Posts : 1131
    Points : 1129
    Join date : 2017-12-27

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:16 pm

    It looks so good somehow? The Il-96 is also a mighty good looker, quite unusual for airliners. I can't put my finger on what it is exactly. Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Screen31

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Ra-96010

    GarryB, kvs, Rodion_Romanovic and Sprut-B like this post

    Krepost
    Krepost


    Posts : 780
    Points : 782
    Join date : 2021-12-08

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Krepost Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 am

    Getting ready for first flight:

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 F9i3rr10

    sepheronx, GarryB, xeno, kvs, Rodion_Romanovic, Sprut-B, Dr.Snufflebug and like this post

    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 1822
    Points : 1818
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 38

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  owais.usmani Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:34 am



    I believe its not new built, but a stored airframe formerly used by Polet airlines in cargo version before it went bankrupt and shut down.

    GarryB, LMFS and Hole like this post

    Scorpius
    Scorpius


    Posts : 1563
    Points : 1563
    Join date : 2020-11-06
    Age : 36

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Scorpius Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:39 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:

    I believe its not new built, but a stored airframe formerly used by Polet airlines in cargo version before it went bankrupt and shut down.

    You think is complietely wrong, because photos of the assembly of the new fuselage have been posted on the network for a long time.
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 3f37cd1de9ff2ccce13199cabe7c59af
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 08076ca515489e5f7b68acffd6b2b2ac
    https://rostec.ru/media/photogallery/sborka-planera-novogo-passazhirskogo-samoleta-il-96-400m/

    GarryB, timochenko, Rodion_Romanovic, Sprut-B, LMFS, Hole, lancelot and Rasisuki Nebia like this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2803
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:38 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/k-pervomu-polyotu-rossijskogo-shfdms-il-96-400m/

    First flight of the Russian widebody Il-96-400M
    01.11.2023, 15:20

    On November 1st, perhaps one of the main events of 2023 took place: the Russian widebody Il-96-400M made its first flight. Now we are waiting for the certification of the PD-8 engine and the first flight of the SJ-100 aircraft with this power plant.

    The day before, a commission arrived on a flight from Zhukovsky on an MS-21 plane to Voronezh, which was supposed to decide on the date of the first flight. On November 1, the weather in the central European part of the country was not clear and warm like autumn. At the VASO factory airfield, documents were signed on the hood of the black Volga, allowing the airliner to take off. The flight sheet was signed by the managing director of PJSC Il, Daniil Brenerman, and the head of the flight test center of PJSC Il, Konstantin Letov. The tradition was introduced more than 50 years ago by Genrikh Novozhilov, at that time the general designer of the Ilyushin Design Bureau, by putting his signature on the flight sheet of the Il-76 transport aircraft on the hood of his official car. That flight was successful and such signing became a good Ilyushin tradition.

    The Il-96-400M was lifted into the air by a crew led by the aircraft commander, chief pilot of Il PJSC, Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation Sergei Sukhar, consisting of: Honored Test Pilot of the Russian Federation Igor Zinov, Honored Test Navigator of the Russian Federation Sergey Goremykin , flight test engineer 1st class Pavel Litvyakov and on-board test electrician Dmitry Semenov.

    During the flight, the stability and controllability of the aircraft, the operability of systems, the power plant and radio equipment for landing were checked. The test program went as usual. The flight took place at altitudes of up to 2000 meters, speeds of up to 390 km/h and lasted 26 minutes.

    The Il-96-400M is equipped with PS-90A1 engines (previously, according to the general designer of UEC-Aviadvigatel, Alexander Inozemtsev, we reported that the Il-96-400M is equipped with PS-90A3 engines) and can accommodate up to 370 passengers. The UAC said that the passenger cabin of the airliner can have a one-, two- and three-class layout. It is equipped with a modern infotainment system, providing access to the Internet, television and satellite communications, and modern pantry and kitchen equipment. The maximum flight range in a two-class passenger configuration is 8100 km.

    The Il-96-400M is developed on the basis of the transport version -400T, so its fuselage is 9.35 m longer than the base Il-96-300 aircraft and is 63.939 meters. The main differences between the -400M version and previous modifications are two pilots in the cockpit.

    In the future, the liner can be used for transportation to the Far East, China, Thailand, India, and Egypt. It may be in demand on long-distance routes with high passenger traffic. But for Russia, with a population of 150 million people, there are few such directions, and therefore “driving” a four-engine giant from Moscow, St. Petersburg or Kaliningrad to Novosibirsk or Irkutsk may not be profitable. On such routes, and we have the majority of them in our country, the A321 size is sufficient.

    A TASS source in the aviation industry spoke about the prospects of the Il-96-400M in August 2022. According to him, the decision on the feasibility of mass production of the vehicle will be made after certification tests, and the first copy of the Il-96-400M will be used as a flying laboratory.

    At the same time, the Il-96-400M is not mentioned in the comprehensive program for the development of the aviation industry for the period until 2030. Instead, plans for this period include the construction of 12 Il-96-300 aircraft. The specialists contacted by the editors of the Russian Aviation website cannot explain such a metamorphosis.

    But today’s event, despite all of the above, is significant. The first flight of the Il-96-400M suggests that our civil aircraft industry is not in the fold, it is developing, and only Boeing, Airbus and UAC are building aircraft of this class in the world. In the future, we can expect that, based on developments on the Il-96-400M, a new ShFDMS will be designed for two PD-35 engines with a passenger capacity of 280-320 people.
    By A321 size I hope they mean MC-21-400

    GarryB, LMFS and Hole like this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 15577
    Points : 15718
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  JohninMK Wed Nov 01, 2023 9:35 pm

    sepheronx, GarryB, LMFS and Hole like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11099
    Points : 11077
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Hole Wed Nov 01, 2023 10:12 pm

    On such routes, and we have the majority of them in our country, the A321 size is sufficient.
    But the Il-96-400M will be great for direct flights between St. Pete and Wladiwostok. Or Moscow and Chabarowsk. Or Murmansk and Irkutsk.

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 3410
    Points : 3400
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Arrow Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:46 am

    Hole likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Nov 08, 2024 7:05 am