Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

In Russia?

You believe that Boeing or Dassault or whatever Western companies never have delays,?
even if they are not rebuilding from scratch competencies but only doing a new version of something they have already in production?

https://aviation21.ru/vertolyot-ka-226t-s-rossijskim-dvigatelem-poluchit-sertifikat-v-2025-godu/

The Ka-226T helicopter with a Russian engine will receive certificate in 2025
09.12.2023, 19:38

The Ka-226T with the Russian VK-650V engine will receive a certificate in 2025, flight tests will begin in 2024, Mikhail Korotkevich, general director of the NCV Mil and Kamov, announced at the Russian Helicopter Forum on December 5.

The helicopter was designed for flights in high altitude conditions; it differs from previous versions of the Ka-226 family by a new airframe and fuselage design, as well as improved aerodynamic characteristics. The Ka-226T also received a new main rotor column, blades, main gearbox and a crash-resistant fuel system. The Ka-226T performed its first flight in 2021.

Initially, the helicopter was designed for French Safran Arrius 2G1 engines. Under the import substitution program, UEC-Klimov is developing a new turboshaft engine for the Ka-226 - VK-650V. The Russian power plant promises to be more powerful – 650 hp. on takeoff mode versus 580 for a foreign engine. The VK-650V is also planned to be installed on Ansat and VR500 helicopters.

According to Mikhail Korotkevich, tests of Ansat with the VK-650V engine will also begin in 2024. This machine is being developed and modernized by specialists from the Kazan Helicopter Plant. VK-650V will replace Canadian PW207K engines. Ansat with a Russian engine is planned to be certified in 2024.

According to Comprehensive program development, the Russian air transport industry is not interested in the Ka-226 helicopter and its cargo modification. So, over the next seven years, it is planned to produce only one helicopter of this family in 2027 for a domestic customer. The Russian Helicopters holding company and the parent organization, Rostec Group of Companies, are working to organize serial production of the Ka-226T together with the HAL Corporation in India at the Russian-Indian enterprise created in 2017.

I cannot believe that Russian companies are not interested in this helicopter (or in the Kazan ansat).
The airbus (former Eurocopter) h145 in the same niche sells like hotcakes, even to ex soviet countries like Kazakhstan or to russian friends like Serbia.

The main issue till now was the lack of a domestic engine. I am sure that the orders will come, both domestic and foreign.

By the way, do you believe that the Kazan ansat could replace the classical tail rotor with a shrouded tail rotor (like the airbus trademarked "fenestron")?
The larger ka-60/Ka-62 already uses such configuration and the latest versions of the airbus H145 also moved from a traditional tail rotor to a fenestron.

That is Russia's problem. Always trying to give things a chance with the West.

Good cooperation with the west could have been very good for Russia and the west and Russia had every reason to give it a go... it was the only way they could be certain the evil racist westerners were lying and out to steal and rob and lie.

They gave them the benefit of the doubt and the West was just the West...

It means Russia can look to the rest of the world with a clear conscience that they tried, but the west simply cannot be trusted.

Any 5th columnist has no grounds to blame Russia for anything at all... Putin tried for two decades to cooperate with the west to help Russia develop and it was all thrown in his face.

If the west wants a partnership in the future they are going to have to do all the work and offer up quite a few concessions or they wont even get in the door.

A very good position for Russia to be in now.

Russia needs a more radical hardline leader..

The west claims that is what Putin is to excuse their failures and abuse... Russia can now have a more hardline leader now who can say the west wants us dead lets have nothing more to do with them until they can grow up.

You cant keep hoping to do business with people who have hated you since the 1600s and invaded you many times in the past.

But they are doing business.... selling gas to the EU still and Japan, their relations with Turkey are probably better than some EU members have with Turkey.

This was a very foolish proposition by Russia to even think of selling MS21s to Western countries. It was never gonna work.

It is not a problem now, and I suspect they were thinking about the rest of the world countries already using western aircraft with the same engines and avionics systems where commonality might be appreciated.

1. They were never gonna get certified to fly in Western countries for no reason other than weeding out the competition just like what the US is doing to Huawei.

If the current conflict had not happened the west would have no choice but to pass Russian avionics and aircraft because if they were seen to be anti Russian then Russia could simply take action by banning the domestic use of western avionics, or overflights by aircraft that don't incorporate Russian systems like TACAN or collision avoidance equipment.

Or what the US is doing with CAATSA. Buy Russian weapons and we sanction you..

If they did that with civilian products there would be serious problems because that could not be called a national security situation.

So you are allowed to buy US weapons only.. Indonesia is a victim (Forced to buy 2nd hand F15s over brand new SU35s) and Egypt (Forced to not buy anything after the SU35 and Mig35 deal was crushed). India too but they flipped one in the USs face.

They only use it when they know they cannot win any other way, which means it is actually a sign of weakness. Countries will do what is in their interests... for many countries it does not matter greatly if their skies are patrolled by Su-35s or F-15s, but no country likes to be bullied and most victims of bullies resent it to the point where they can get revenge or stand up and say no more.

2. The anti-Russian sentiment in the West is so great people wouldnt agree to fly in anything that isnt a Boeing especially Americans. Europeans might give the MS21 a try but Americans are so anti-Russian they wouldnt.

That is hardly a problem for Russia. Let them enjoy their ignorance.

3. Boeing was gonna complain to US congress that Russian airplanes are selling in America and its disturbing their sales which is not very democratic..or some rubbish like that..

Yup. And they will also use the spying power of the NSA to win international contracts for aircraft sales. Boeing has an enormous advantage in sales because it often knows the offers of their competitors so they can structure and form their bids to appear more attractive, and then have the CIA mount a media campaign locally to push for the American offer to be accepted over other bids irrespective of their content. Hints of spyware or hidden costs, or safety issues are normal...

What Russia does it like eating out everyday for no reason other than that you can instead of cooking only for KFC to ban you from their stores and then you have start adjusting to life with home cooked food.

Buying things from other countries is not equivalent to death by fast food... It is more like Russia used to get KFC and McDs, and when those two companies closed during the very short period where a Russian entrepreneur gets them back up and running under a different logo you can have Chinese takeaways or Indian takeaways... and eventually the new Russian brands of chicken and burger places will be available again if there is demand.

But we are not talking about something as important as food... personal computers and cellphones are widely available from many countries including via parallel imports.

Russia can make things just as good as Western products so quality is not an excuse.

I agree, but it is like drones for decades Russia didn't have a lot of good drones, but they weren't really using them either... the cost of developing them from scratch to a decent level would be enormous. They took a few shortcuts by buying mature Israeli systems even if they weren't the latest generation, they were mature working systems that the Russians likely learned a great deal from. The point is that having an amazing aerospace industry didn't mean it took a week or a month to make state of the art drones... they are related but not the same so time and money and effort was needed, but fortunately for Russia the use by the west in Syria and now Ukraine of drones has really made them step up their game in terms of defence and offense in terms of drone use and also defending from drones too.

They don't need to be able to mass produce 7nm chips for laptops and phones, the uses they have for such things is rather limited.

Money isnt either because Russia is a massive microeconomy that can source 98% of all it needs locally..

That is true but spending 50 billion US dollars on something that will make zero profit is not a good use of resources. Conversely that money used to develop new generation battery technology or superconducting magnets or other high tech electronics that will be used in large volumes makes sense.

Making absolutely everything for yourself means enormous investments and a lot of areas where you are never going to make a profit or a difference.

Things like pharmacy is a good example... 70% of the drugs you need will be most of the drugs you need to produce and those drugs can be sold on the international market for good money too... perhaps another 20% of more unusual drugs you might develop because it is needed and no one else will sell to you or others so you can develop that yourself and sell to other countries also denied those drugs, but there is always going to be 5-10% of drugs that are super expensive and not widely needed so it is very hard to justify making them except commercially.

Then again if you can develop a drug that will cure cancer or baldness or various mental illnesses like Parkinson's or Alzheimers etc etc then that would effectively be a licence to print money.

The point is that no one makes all their own drugs either... no one is self sufficient in drugs.

Russia is different though. Money is not a problem when everything you need is priced in money you print.

Its resources are not infinite and should not be wasted on things they can buy off the shelf.

This is not about relying on one country... China makes things but so does South Korea and Singapore and Malaysia and Indonesia and India, and with BRICS the number of countries that have growing and developing economies are going to want to buy stuff from Russia but also sell stuff to them too.

Who is going to want one way trade? And think about the build up of funds that will create... India buying energy from Russia, Russia ending up with billions of Rupees that are sitting doing nothing... why not set up production for civilian ships for Russian companies or drone production for Russian civilian drones taking advantage of cheap mass labour and not just that, there would be other areas Russia could use Rupees in India... perhaps setting up a university that takes people in areas they are short of in Russia and teaches them the Russian language and further education in the area they need workers.

So the Western components surprise me.

Sounds like someone got a good payday... but fortunately western politicians are undoing all their work and it is sorting itself out...

After Russia used her own local industry to dampen sanctions, nobody cares about US sanctions anymore.

Well it is better than that, because western sanctions mean for example Russia can't buy German diesel engines for their ships, and they tried Chinese copies of German engines but they had problems so Russia is making its own diesels. They could always do that but it is more expensive and takes more time than just buying German engines or Chinese engines but they have been given no choice.

The point is that from a German diesel engine makers perspective they had solid contracts for sales to Russia for her ships and ongoing contracts no doubt to support them in operation for the lives of the ships, and now not only have they lost the sales and the support contracts but Russia is now making new engines to rival theirs based on new technology and they can probably make them cheaper than you can now your energy costs have tripled you are probably going out of business or moving production to Bangladesh, while Russia will be in the process of starting serial production of some new competition for your product.

It created delays and costs for Russia but it now increases their self sufficiency and they can use those diesels in pumping and power stations as well as military and civilian ships for domestic use and export.

The thing is, these African countries don't have what Russia most needs, which is technology. At best they can provide some resources which for whatever reason are hard to extract in Russia. The idea that Russia can invent everything itself is ridiculous. They have about the same population as Japan.

I disagree, they are not working in a vacuum and can learn from the work of others even just reading patent applications from various countries.

Africa has plenty of very smart people who have not had the opportunities that people in the west have had... not to mention central and south america and asia too... the potential is enormous and as they develop they have all the potential of the west and more.

I wouldn't know about that since I think in several cases the Soviet diesel technology lagged even back then. It started out with licensed Western engines. It's only gotten worse with modern electronic injection.

Yeah, the magical west... their technology is so damn amazing... it is why the war in the Ukraine only lasted a few months because of the advanced western technology and their amazing engines and computers etc.

The economics argument that it is cheaper to buy existing products than build your own
basically always wins when such products are available. You need a government to force domestic replacement. The Russian
government ended up doing enough to make this feasible now. So Putin was no Yeltsin.

The point I am trying to make is that Russia doesn't need to make absolutely everything, obviously critical things they should be self sufficient like energy and food and military material and ammo, but things like cell phones a variety and choice is good enough and imports will keep domestic makers on their toes too.

Only allowing Russian products will make Russian makers lazy.

It is not cheaper if you consider the all system.

Cheaper in the sense of being able to buy car seat covers off the shelf rather than having to develop them for yourself.

Often the solution is both... develop your own but until it is good enough use some imports from a third party.

Case in point thermal imagers... Russia traditionally used thermals from Belarus but they were not cheap and their performance left a lot to be desired.

Turns out buying them from Thales worked out not a lot more expensive so they got contracts to licence produce French thermals while they learned how to make them, obviously working with Thales upped their game, but they already had a lot of knowledge in the field of optics and electronics so once they got up to speed they could push the technology further and in other directions.

If they had just invested the money for themselves their thermals would not be as good as they are now.

Most of the western technology they buy they buy a licence to produce where possible.

Like when you get sanctioned. Russia found this out many times and is still in denial.. They still believe they can fix things with the West who isnt willing to fix things.

Actually if you listen to Putin and Lavrov it is pretty clear neither thinks western sanctions will end any time soon and the conflict in the Ukraine wont effect that either.

They seem to me to have largely decided that this split was the wests fault and if ties are to be restored they wont be taking the first step and the west will have to come up with some concessions and acts of faith if they want to restore relations to anything approaching what could be called normal.

Cheap gas is over for the EU because Russia now has new buyers who don't lecture or bully them.

The Su57 according to schedule supposed to be done by 2014-2017.

Whose schedule? Events change plans, that is normal, and any plan needs to be flexible. Maidan in 2014 effected relations and a lot of things so priorities changed.

Its still not done as we speak..

The first serial models are in service.

It is a 5th gen heavy fighter, not a new flavour ice cream.

They are not 15 year old internet experts, they are not interested in rushing things into service for pride or ego... look at the ridiculous mess that is the F-35 or Zumwalt or LCS class of ships. How about the replacement for the M16 or the Abrams or Bradley. Or the Apache helicopter or the M-109.

The Lithography machine project with RusNano started in 2014 and was supposed to be nearing completion in 2021.. But it ended for some reason and is now pushed back to 2028. At which point its going to get pushed back to 2035 probably. Why?

Have you ever managed a project? When you start a project you set goals and targets but things like Covid or conflicts with neighbours can change schedules and priorities. After developing a new system they might have realised another technology might be quicker or easier or cheaper or might just do a much better job... but with your mentality they should just finish what they started and end up with rubbish.

Russia is introducing a new 5th gen heavy fighter, something Europe couldn't achieve with its enormous financial muscle and all the amazing western technology we keep hearing about. Russia is introducing new vehicle families to overhaul their armour park to a whole new generation... no HATO country is even close to doing that... should I continue? Hypersonic ground launched missiles in service for 20 years that HATO air defence systems are unable to intercept and an air launched model they can't intercept either...

No delays happen everywhere but they are far more prevalent in Russia

Nothing to do with being the most sanction country in the world in history... the west had better relations with nazi germany than they currently have with Russia, delays would be normal, except apart from some promised dates you pulled from your arse you really have not been clear about what is being delayed.

You cant keep hoping to do business with people who have hated you since the 1600s and invaded you many times in the past.

Italy should learn the same, basically all large European nations (plus the papacy) screwed Italy since at least 1000 years.

Especially England and France, but not only.
A large responsibility was also on our shoulders, because we preferred continuing arguing with each other then cooperating in order to live better, and often we invited our real enemies (France, England, etc) in order to help dealing with our neighbours (other Italians, but living 50 km away), even if those countries from which we were asking help were those who damaged ans screwed us in the past.

A pity. As an example in Constantinople in the 12th century (before the massacre of the Latins, in which the local Greeks killed and raped and all the living Italian population, including nuns) basically the vast majority of the commerce was managed by Italians. Unfortunately the various merchants and other groups from Pisa, Genova, Venezia, etc were always fighting with each other even there.

Anyway in 2010 I really hoped that there could be a real cooperation between Italy and Russia on the SSJ100 and I was trying to get a job there.

I would have really liked to see as an example some local hub for maintenance and overhaul of SSJ100 in Italy.
As an example about 10 years ago a local airline, based in Olbia (Sardinia) now defunct because of silly management decisions (Meridiana, previously called Alisarda) was responsible of maintaining the DC-9/MD-80 fleet (and the engines) of several African countries, since at that time they still had MD-80 in their fleet.

It would have been awesome if Russia and Italy could have organised a partnership, both for the airline itself and to support eventual sales to African countries.

Now the large hangars in the airports that were used for maintenance and overhaul operations are almost abandoned, and the town has lost also a lot of work opportunities.
It was also one of the largest airplane maintenance firm in Italy, so you can imagine the impact.
I believe a small part of the technicians and the infrastructure have been kept by thr company managing the airport in order to support and facilitate some operations of line maintenance by the other airlines operating there, but it is very little compared to what was in the past. Furthermore all heavy maintenance operations are not possible there anymore.

You cant keep hoping to do business with people who have hated you since the 1600s and invaded you many times in the past.

You can, but what you should not do is sell them energy and resources cheap to try to get them to like you.

Russias mistake was not selling cheap gas to the west, Russias mistake was thinking that won them brownie points and would make the EU like them.

Selling it cheap made sense because it means they would spend on infrastructure to distribute the gas widely so it could be used widely.

Their mistake was not spelling it out when US interested sabotaged the entire deal that the US just wanted Europe to stop buying Russian gas and instead buy US gas... that was not competitive so could not rely on so called market forces to sell their product... if that ever happened in reality.

The irony is that when the EU reduced buying volumes the rest of the world started buying... not to help Russia, but because it was a fraction of what they had been paying for gas before.

The EU will not find gas anywhere else for the price they paid for Russian gas but Russia can sell to any country on the planet for rather more than what the EU was paying.

It is the invaders and colonials that screwed themselves and Russia should be thankful they are so dumb that they were led by the nose by the US to their own gallows.

Anyway in 2010 I really hoped that there could be a real cooperation between Italy and Russia on the SSJ100 and I was trying to get a job there.

Russia does not hold grudges... perhaps your children or childrens children might get the same chance...

It would have been awesome if Russia and Italy could have organised a partnership, both for the airline itself and to support eventual sales to African countries.

The problem with that moving forward is that I suspect it would make more sense for them to set up support in Africa instead of Europe or the west now and in the future.

When you did the Yak-130 deal this might have gone hand in hand, but now it would be like wondering if Russia will have a floating dock built in France...

It was also one of the largest airplane maintenance firm in Italy, so you can imagine the impact.
I believe a small part of the technicians and the infrastructure have been kept by thr company managing the airport in order to support and facilitate some operations of line maintenance by the other airlines operating there, but it is very little compared to what was in the past. Furthermore all heavy maintenance operations are not possible there anymore.

Well with large ports in the Black Sea the locals were encouraged to break up the biggest slipway by putting grain loading bays in it to prevent it being useful for building large ships again... they covered all their bases didn't they... the only reason that would make sense would be if they expected Russia to be on good enough relations with Kiev to want to build aircraft carriers there again... perhaps those large airport hangars would make good shopping malls...

America doesn't like competition in anything...

Very interesting a long interview with the head of Tupulev.

I am reporting here some extracts.

https://m.business-gazeta.ru/article/616520

— UAC General Director Yuri Slyusar announced that a proposal is being formed to create the next generation Tu-214. What is meant?

- We have such a proposal. The first direction is the creation of an aircraft for a two-member crew. It should be tested in 2026. But let’s also keep cars with two pilots and a flight engineer: the military and special services require a minimum of three-member crew... The second direction is the creation of a short version like the Tu-204-300. It may turn out to be an effective aircraft for long-haul flights like Moscow - Vladivostok... And the third direction is a cargo aircraft. We are launching this story on our own initiative - we want so that when the time comes, we will have something to show. The truck is potentially in great demand, for example, we have an application from one airline that would take 10 boards right now.
- 
- Tupolev has already created an aircraft with a two-member crew - the Tu-204SM. To put it simply, is it possible to take and transfer this cabin to the Tu-214?

— The Tu-204SM received a type certificate 13 years ago, it was a breakthrough, but today that complex of on-board equipment is outdated. Let me remind you that then they decided to “shoot” with a super good product - they started the MS-21 program, a lot - about 80 - of Tupolev employees involved in SM moved to Irkut (today renamed to "Yakovlev"). As a result, it turned out that the control system for general aircraft equipment, which made it possible to implement the two-term principle on the SM, was developed in the MS-21, and today we, in fact, take it and twist it for ourselves..editor's note -

— What will happen to the two Tu-204SM in storage?

— They belong to the Ulyanovsk Aviation Plant. There is an interested party who is ready to buy them and restore them for use.

— At one time, KAZ had high hopes that it would be entrusted with the construction of the military transport Tu-330. Topic closed?

- Today, yes. We are focused on fulfilling strategic, special and civil aviation missions.

— Several years ago they spoke quite officially about military modifications of the Tu-214...

“The airplane has such a future.”

— There is still a Tu-334 at KAZ. What will happen to him?

— In concept, the Tu-334 is an excellent machine, but at one time it was not brought to production. I am one of the few who flew on it as a business passenger, including about 15 years ago, when we demonstrated it at the Kazan airport to the Tatarstan airline team. Then they took her chief pilot and senior flight engineer with them to Zhukovsky and gave her control. It was a very good impression... We will definitely keep the car sitting at the factory, we will not let it go for scrap.

The full article also include some info on the expansion work to build new assembly line in Kazan aircraft plant.
I just hope that they do a better job than the modernisation/expansion of severnaya verf
As far as the tu-334 it was not bad but the SJ-100 is better, especially since within 2 years the fully Russian version will be in service.

As far as the Tu-204SM it is not just that the equipment is outdated. That particular version included several American components, so they have first to replace something also. It is probable that some parts developed for the MC-21 will be modified and retrofitted for the new modernisation of Tu-214.

I am sad that there are no clear answers for the Tu-330 but I believe that soon it will be back in discussion.

Anyway, possibly the new automated production lines being built for the Tu-214 will be able to be used also for the Tu-330, once the Tu-214 will be needed at a lower production rate.
Or possibly even to open a second production line for MC-21. (Even if would really like to see a brand new factory to assemble additional MC-21/ Yak-242 in Saratov instead).

From an Italian telegram channel about russian aviation

The Government of the Russian Federation has allocated with its order an additional 142 million rubles for the modification and testing of the TV7-117 engine.

The funds are allocated as a contribution to the authorized capital of the UEC and are intended to:
• continuation of a series of works to support the flight design tests of the engines in 2025
as part of the Il-114-300 aircraft;
• modification and repair of engines and propellers, adaptation of design and technological documentation based on the results of flight design tests.

The funds are allocated in a targeted manner and the Government expects by 31 December 2025:
• flight test report of the TV7-117 as part of the Il-114-300;
• intervene on the modification of engines and propellers;
• notices of changes to the standard design of the TV7-117 engine.

No additional funds are provided after the preparation of reports, records and notices. The ordinance provides only for the distribution of funds separately for testing (19,900 thousand rubles) and separately for documentation for engine modification (122,498 thousand rubles).
In January 2023, UEC-Klimov received a certificate from the Federal Air Transport Agency for the TV7-117ST-01 engine.

In such conditions, after reading the government order, it can be said with a high degree of confidence that the Il-114-300 regional aircraft will not be certified before 2026. It is obvious that the engine that caused the crash of the 'The Il-112V at Kubinka in August 2021 will be further developed before being certified “as part of the Il-114-300”

So, actually both for the TVRS-44 Ladoga and il-114, Russian airlines will have to wait at least until 2026 (possibly longer for the Ladoga) before they are in service.

In the meanwhile the russian airlines needing them will have to continue operating An-24 for a bit longer.

I do not know it can make sense to in the meanwhile to try to repair and make airworthy the 4 An-140 which were previously operated by yakutia but removed from service since at least 8 years. They were not considered particularly well by that airline but those 4 aircrafts could at least act as a small stop gaps (provided that they could be restored in an airworthy state in less than an year).

With all of this it is almost absurd that the Chineses are currently better off thanks to their Knock off copy of the An-24 (the Y-7).

I cannot believe that Russian companies are not interested in this helicopter (or in the Kazan ansat).
The airbus (former Eurocopter) h145 in the same niche sells like hotcakes, even to ex soviet countries like Kazakhstan or to russian friends like Serbia.

The main issue till now was the lack of a domestic engine. I am sure that the orders will come, both domestic and foreign.

You have essentially answered your own question... these helicopters need all Russian components and engines, which limited their appeal.

For Russian military and government use the fact that these helicopters are to be all Russian means they will be the helicopters of choice moving forward and the orders from the military and government departments means they will be deployed and used around the country which will mean the availability of parts and support will make them an obvious choice for private companies and individuals to operate... especially as foreign aircraft with foreign engines become harder to support and operate.

I am sad that there are no clear answers for the Tu-330 but I believe that soon it will be back in discussion.

They did mention a cargo version (his third direction of development), but saying outright no to the Tu-330 is a disappointment.
(Of course he is the head of Tupolev, so I suspect he is just saying they have no plans for the Tu-330. I am sure if the Russian military made a request for such a platform he would be keen to meet their needs with an aircraft whose development should be reduced with the work already done and the aircraft it is based upon being in serial production.)

The Government of the Russian Federation has allocated with its order an additional 142 million rubles for the modification and testing of the TV7-117 engine.

I wonder why they focus on the TV7-117 when Klimov has developed the VK-2500 to replace it...

I do not know it can make sense to in the meanwhile to try to repair and make airworthy the 4 An-140 which were previously operated by yakutia but removed from service since at least 8 years. They were not considered particularly well by that airline but those 4 aircrafts could at least act as a small stop gaps (provided that they could be restored in an airworthy state in less than an year)

Not sure adding four different planes to the mix would help. If they break down you need local support and local parts... is it worth having that at every airfield they operate from?

With all of this it is almost absurd that the Chineses are currently better off thanks to their Knock off copy of the An-24 (the Y-7).

Currently better off but when the proper replacements are ready and in serial production the Chinese solution will be their disadvantage in that their new planes are already obsolete.

BTW for those thinking Klimov are useless and lazy... have a look at the number of engines they make:

https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/ru-en.en.5c74eea2-657d5e5e-2410bf1f-74722d776562/https/www.uecrus.com/products-and-services/products/

I count 62 different products from aircraft and helicopter engines through to pumping station engines...

Of course some, like the PD-35 are not in serial production but they will be working on all of these projects...

GarryB wrote:I wonder why they focus on the TV7-117 when Klimov has developed the VK-2500 to replace it...

Hi Garry, sorry but there is a misunderstanding here.

The VK-2500 is just a high power variant of the TV3-117 engine, that means basically a modernisation of an engine that is running since 50 years.

 Here some data from the web archive of motor sich website
https://web.archive.org/web/20140714154738/http://www.motorsich.com/rus/products/aircraft/turboshaft/vk-2500/

The TV3-117 engine was originally designed by Klimov in Saint Petersburg but mass production was organised in Motor Sich in Zaporozhye (under licence from Klimov).

Later a turboprop version (An-140 engine) was also made, which was produced by motor sich under another name: AI-30 series 1 turboprop engines, 1,838 kW (2,465 hp) each (licence-built Klimov TV3-117VMA-SBM1).


The TV7-117 is a much newer engine instead, which was  first done in a turboprop version for the Il-114 passenger aircraft, and which first version TV7-117S was certified in 1997.

The turboshaft version is called also VK-3000 (TV7-117V (the V stands for the Russian word for helicopter, Vertalët)) and is in service with the Mi-38 in a model with the powershaft in front.

There is also a planned variant of the VK-3000 with the power shaft in the rear, the TV7-117VK which will eventually be used to upgrade Mi-28 and Ka-50/Ka-52 helicopters and to replace the TV3-117 / VK-2500.

The one they are trying to improve now is the TV7-117ST-01 which is the one that should have gone on the il-112V and on the modernisation of the il-114 (and, in the version TV7-117-ST-02 with 2450 hp on the TVRS-44 Ladoga).

The problem that Russia had in the past is that until 2014 all of the TV3-117 / VK-2500 engine family were produced in Motor sich under licence, even if the original design was from Klimov.

lancelot wrote:The Chinese are currently developing the AEP500 engine which should work for this aircraft.

From the few info I have found the AEP500 should be an engine with about 5000kw of power (I.e.about 6700 HP), much more powerful than the An-24 engine and more powerful also of the An-12 engine.
So probably they want to use it on other aircrafts, including their enlarged derivative of the An-12.

Anyway, probably it will take at least until 2028 before the Chinese AEP500 is in service.

Russia does not have an engine planned in this power range, but is developing a turboshaft/turboprop engine between 4000 and 5000 hp (about 3000 to 3700 KW), called PDV-4000 and an engine with about 8,500 kW (11,400 hp), the turboshaft derivative of the PD-8, to be used on the Mi-26.

By the way, why do you hate the TVRS-44 Ladoga?

From the U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines thread.

lancelot wrote:I really hate that old steaming pile of shit airframe design in the TVRS-44 Ladoga. Just cancel that shit. Same thing with L-410. Kill it with fire.
Someone should unfreeze the Il-114 project. If the problem is the engines, then why is the TVRS-44 Ladoga proceeding while that is frozen?

They are different aircrafts and many Russian airlines experienced with An-24 want another high wing aircraft.

I believe they (TVRS-44 Ladoga and Il-114) can coexist without problems, also because the il-114 offers about 50% more seats (68 vs 44).

The issue is different for the L-410 because it is a foreign plane and Russia is already working (together with Bielorussia) on a replacement for that.
Yes I know that the design of the Ladoga is derived from that of the L-610 prototype, but that should not be a problem at all (and furthermore the L-610 was conceived as a replacement for the An-24 anyway).

Back to the il-114 and its segment of regional aviation, Russia later will probably decide if they want to do also a shortened 75 passenger version of the sj100, and maybe even a smaller regional jet /VIP transport aircraft with about 40 seats similar to embraer 135/145family once they have the engine available, which could be a turbofan sharing the same core as the PDV4000 .

The aircraft could be a sort of modern equivalent (but slightly longer and with only 2 engines) of the Yak-40.

P.S.
I had already mentioned the naming and relationships between the VK-2500 and the TV3-117 in my latest post (from Tuesday 12th) in the U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines thread.

By the way, why do you hate the TVRS-44 Ladoga?

I am guessing that this is because the Ladoga seems to just be a mix of L-410/610 and An-140, rather than an all Russian custom designed platform for the job.

The issue is different for the L-410 because it is a foreign plane and Russia is already working (together with Bielorussia) on a replacement for that.
Yes I know that the design of the Ladoga is derived from that of the L-610 prototype, but that should not be a problem at all (and furthermore the L-610 was conceived as a replacement for the An-24 anyway).

Well the An-72 was also developed to replace all those propeller driven antonovs too and it appears it is being replaced by the Il-212.

They are going to have the Il-212 and eventually when a more powerful prop engine is ready probably an Il-112 as well, along with the Il-114... which makes me think the Ladoga is a bit redundant and a design based on Eastern European and Ukrainian designs.

The aircraft could be a sort of modern equivalent (but slightly longer and with only 2 engines) of the Yak-40.

I would prefer the Tu-334 for that role...

It was a go but was sabotaged by Ukraine factions.

The KV-600 seems to be a design specifically to make the engine simple and cheap and compact and light, and the VK-1600 has gone the same way with double turbines instead of larger turbines. (centrifugal jets have flat plates that get very heavy as they get larger(wider)).

Weren't they talking about a PD-12 based engine being used for the new power plant for the Mi-26, but now they are talking about a modification of the PD-8, but that the PD-8 will also be used on the Il-212.

The Mi-26 has 11,500hp engines so even a PD-4 based engine would probably be too powerful to base an engine in the 4-6 thousand hp range.

GarryB wrote:I am guessing that this is because the Ladoga seems to just be a mix of L-410/610 and An-140, rather than an all Russian custom designed platform for the job.
(...)
Well the An-72 was also developed to replace all those propeller driven antonovs too and it appears it is being replaced by the Il-212.

They are going to have the Il-212 and eventually when a more powerful prop engine is ready probably an Il-112 as well, along with the Il-114... which makes me think the Ladoga is a bit redundant and a design based on Eastern European and Ukrainian designs.

Russia needs both a turboprop aircraft with about 70 seats and one with about 40.
The il-114 only cover the upper segment.

Furthermore many Russian regional airlines operating a turboprop in remote regions want a high wing aircraft.

The il-114 is a low wing aircraft, like the Saab-2000.

At the moment the only high wing regional passenger turboprop in development in Russia is the TVRS-44 Ladoga (unless Russia wants to restart production of the An-24....).

GarryB wrote:Weren't they talking about a PD-12 based engine being used for the new power plant for the Mi-26, but now they are talking about a modification of the PD-8, but that the PD-8 will also be used on the Il-212.

Yes originally they said they would derive the new Mi-26 engine from the PD-14 but it did not make sense and it would have been also bulkier and heavier than the old engine (of course since the the existing mi-26 engine was derived from the turbofan engine of the an-72, which has less then half the power of a PD-14).
Possibly Russia considered that only because they did not have any other alternative.

Being forced to make the PD-8 has been a blessing in disguise.

GarryB wrote:I would prefer the Tu-334 for that role...

The Tu-334 is an alternative to the SJ-100 and has a similar dimensions to it, it has nothing to do with a 40- 50 passengers jet.

To make a comparison the embraer ERJ135/140/145 has a Three-abreast cabin (2.1 m wide) (similar cabin size for the yak-40), while theTu-334 has a much larger six abreast Cabin, with a width of 3.57 m (basically it is a shortened Tu-204 fuselage).

The SJ-100 has a five abreast cabin, 3.2 m wide.

I am not sure it was Ukraine that killed the Tu-334, even if the longer versions of the an-148/an-158 (An-74 derivative) covered the same niche.

It was also the same niche covered by the SJ-100. However the SJ-100 is the better aircraft between the two. Its main problem was the presence of many foreign part, but this problem is being solved. And the Tu-334 had Ukrainian engines, anyway.

Compare the expected cruise speed of the Tu-324, 800 kph, to the one in the TVRS-44 Ladoga, 460 kph.
The Tu-324 would be a modern replacement for the Yak-40.

It is like saying that a luxury sedan is faster than a off road vehicle...

They cover different niches, furthermore a turboprop in that class has lower fuel consumption and it is better to operate from remote and poor services area.
The Ladoga (as the An-24) is also supposed to be able to operate from unprepared airstrips.