Perhaps they could buy/lease some C-919s in the meantime?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919#Specifications
https://youtu.be/axZ7YTZgcHg
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Tsavo Lion wrote:That means the gov. will have to support the airlines as those new planes won't perform as well (less pax carried &/ not as far) to make enough money for them to stay afloat on their own.
Perhaps they could buy/lease some C-919s in the meantime?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_C919#Specifications
https://youtu.be/axZ7YTZgcHg
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That means the gov. will have to support the airlines as those new planes won't perform as well (less pax carried &/ not as far) to make enough money for them to stay afloat on their own.
China does not produce its internal systems, who come from US, EU or Israel. That means that it is sanctionable.
"there's no smoke w/o a fire", so it's still unclear what & how bad the weight problem is.
Do u have an ironclad proof that it's an absolute lie, with verified specs?
Recently Russia started to fix the Western engines & buy out leased planes so they can operate abroad;
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is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?You bring what you admit to be hostile western propaganda and demand it be refuted with hard proven facts?
I bet they'll use them for a lot longer than u think, just like all those Antonov planes they still don't (& won't) have anything to replace with anytime soon, & in needed numbers.A stopgap solution because these aircraft have no future in Russia.
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The article from kommersant contained so much lies and bs that made me vomit.Tsavo Lion wrote:is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?You bring what you admit to be hostile western propaganda and demand it be refuted with hard proven facts?
Tsavo Lion wrote:I bet they'll use them for a lot longer than u think, just like all those Antonov planes they still don't (& won't) have anything to replace with anytime soon, & in needed numbers.A stopgap solution because these aircraft have no future in Russia.
OTH, if they get Chinese planes, those will also be used for a long time.
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Tsavo Lion wrote:
is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?
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In Kazan, the technical re-equipment of three workshops for the production of Tu-214 has been completed
06.24.2024
At the Kazan Aviation Plant named after S.P. Gorbunov completed the technical re-equipment of the pre-production workshops, mechanical assembly production and flight test base. Completion of the work will ensure an increase in the production of the Tu-214 medium-haul passenger aircraft. This was reported by the United Aircraft Corporation.
The program for complete import substitution at the enterprise has entered a new stage. For nine facilities, including the modular and final assembly shops, conclusions of compliance and permits for commissioning were received. The heat treatment and coatings production rate is currently 86 percent.
First Deputy General Director of UAC, Managing Director of Tupolev JSC Konstantin Timofeev said that the comprehensive development program for the aviation industry sets Tupolev the task of increasing serial production of the Tu-214. To do this, it is necessary to expand production capacity as soon as possible. “So far we are on schedule with these indicators, even with some advance on contracting,” said Konstantin Timofeev.
The general contractor of the work is JSC Kazan Giproniiaviaprom named after B.I. Tikhomirov. As part of the state program for the development of the military-industrial complex, KazGAP is carrying out capital construction projects at ten facilities of the Kazan Aviation Plant worth about 30 billion rubles.
Earlier it became known that the Tu-214 RA-64509 aircraft was restored to airworthiness and flew to Minsk, where civil aviation plant No. 407 will be painted in the UAC corporate livery. This board will be used as a flying laboratory for testing a number of components and components of systems and on-board equipment under the program of complete import substitution, as well as for the modernization and further development of the Tu-214 platform.
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lancelot wrote:This is a lie by Kommersant. The aircraft isn't 6 tons heavier.Tsavo Lion wrote:https://simpleflying.com/mc-21-6-tons-heavier/
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that should be the bottom line! what is the "decent level", & where is the guarantee it'll be reached in time, if ever?..once their production rates reaches a decent level most problems for the narrowbodies in Russia will be just a matter of time.
That is a lie. For example Tupolev used the new building that was meant to build the PAK DA prototype to build the Tu-214. If anything they are assigning quite a lot of resources to building the civilian aircraft.Tsavo Lion wrote:However, in a global sense, the aircraft manufacturing industry has so far revised its priorities towards combat aviation. https://ircity.ru/text/transport/2024/06/26/73753649/
So, the Tu-214 isn't going to be terribly popular with the major airlines, but may get additional orders by the military.
As for the MC-21, he said it, so further comments r unnecessary at this point.
is Kommersant really a Western propaganda outlet, in ur view?
I bet they'll use them for a lot longer than u think, just like all those Antonov planes they still don't (& won't) have anything to replace with anytime soon, & in needed numbers.
OTH, if they get Chinese planes, those will also be used for a long time.
that should be the bottom line! what is the "decent level", & where is the guarantee it'll be reached in time, if ever?
Then & now the priority was mil. aircraft;
..Aeroflot may refuse to operate the Tu-214 due to the fact that the operation of Kazan airliners is more expensive due to logistics costs, the presence of a three-member crew and higher fuel consumption.
So, the Tu-214 isn't going to be terribly popular with the major airlines, but may get additional orders by the military.
As for the Tu-214 vs the MC-21 like I said before I think spending more resources on the Tu-214 is a waste of resources at this point. Tupolev should be making or modernizing more bombers.
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The thing is, it made sense to keep the Tu-214 available as a more sanction proof aircraft before the Russification of the MC-21 started. That could be used for government purposes. But now with the Russification of the MC-21 the Tu-214 is totally redundant.GarryB wrote:As a gap filler only I would agree, but I think it has potential to continue production after civilian airlines in Russias needs are met to meet the needs of the Russian military to replace a lot of obsolete types they currently use.
It also can be converted into the Tu-330.
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the Il-476/96-400M & An-124-100 r all deeply modernized Soviet era planes too.So you think buying non Russian planes to replace Soviet era planes is a good idea... when the non Russian planes they should buy in your opinion are modernised Soviet era planes.
which means they won't have enough Russian made planes to meet the demand in the meantime.OK, lets pretend it takes them longer to achieve the numbers they want to achieve.
it may not be as hard as u expect; it's always better to have alternatives in case other planes not ready.Buying planes from China wont change that. And the costs of buying a different aircraft type that would need engines and avionics to be developed for it and integrated and tested for flight and then pass all the certificates for it to be allowed to carry passengers commercially means it is not going to be ready for use in time to solve the problems you pretend might occur.
they may be "moved to the right" again & again, as up to now, with no end in sight.The fact of the matter is that the Russian aircraft are closer to operational service and serial production..
that's the plan which may not be realized, as with many other of their plans in the past.Actually I would say the opposite is true... the number of Tu-214s and Superjets and MS-21s being built for the civilian airlines between now and 2030 massively outnumbers the number of transport planes the Russians seem to be making for their military.
too bad they won't need ur advice...Sound like a change in leadership is needed at Aeroflot... the costs of operating Tu-214s is very unlikely to be more than the costs of operating western aircraft that are under sanctions.
that will kill many airlines & add wear & tear on the rest of them.Perhaps a law banning Russian airlines from buying or new leases of Airbus or Boeing aircraft or other western types needs to be put in place...
and it'll give more reasons to keep operating their Western planes in the meantime, before the smoke clears.Of course them refusing these aircraft essentially just frees up more Tupolevs to other airlines and puts more pressure on MS-21 and Superjet production to fill the gaps for Aeroflot.
they do/did operate some Soviet era Tu-204; the Tu-214 has more range & is an improved model.They haven't operated it yet but are making claims it will be no good... sounds like propaganda to me.
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They are in theory in a similar niche, and due to about a 13% of imported components in the tu-214, they had to do import substitution on that as well.lancelot wrote:The thing is, it made sense to keep the Tu-214 available as a more sanction proof aircraft before the Russification of the MC-21 started. That could be used for government purposes. But now with the Russification of the MC-21 the Tu-214 is totally redundant.
lancelot wrote:As for the Tu-330 it is just simply worse than the SSJ-100 on every commercial metric. You might argue about the better rough field performance because the engines are higher. But the Russian government has been investing in upgrading all the airports. So this issue will become moot eventually.
The Tu-330 also suffers from the same issue as the SSJ-100 in that it uses an engine not made in Russia. It would also need the PD-8 engine just the same.
Tsavo Lion wrote:they do/did operate some Soviet era Tu-204; the Tu-214 has more range & is an improved model.
They could also revive the Tu-334 & develop a famaly of them, if they don't want to buy the ARJ-21 that has cargo versions capable of hauling 10T.
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The thing is, it made sense to keep the Tu-214 available as a more sanction proof aircraft before the Russification of the MC-21 started. That could be used for government purposes. But now with the Russification of the MC-21 the Tu-214 is totally redundant.
As for the Tu-330 it is just simply worse than the SSJ-100 on every commercial metric.
You might argue about the better rough field performance because the engines are higher. But the Russian government has been investing in upgrading all the airports. So this issue will become moot eventually.
The Tu-330 also suffers from the same issue as the SSJ-100 in that it uses an engine not made in Russia. It would also need the PD-8 engine just the same.
the Il-476/96-400M & An-124-100 r all deeply modernized Soviet era planes too.
which means they won't have enough Russian made planes to meet the demand in the meantime.
it may not be as hard as u expect; it's always better to have alternatives in case other planes not ready.
they may be "moved to the right" again & again, as up to now, with no end in sight.
that's the plan which may not be realized, as with many other of their plans in the past.
too bad they won't need ur advice...
Any sanctions can be bypassed by some1 with a strong will & $.
that will kill many airlines & add wear & tear on the rest of them.
and it'll give more reasons to keep operating their Western planes in the meantime, before the smoke clears.
they do/did operate some Soviet era Tu-204; the Tu-214 has more range & is an improved model.
They could also revive the Tu-334 & develop a famaly of them,
According to public available data, its proposed characteristics were very promising. It should have had a wide cargo bay (4 m, wider than the one of the il-76), and, on paper, very good payload/range characteristics.
Unfortunately it remained stillborn.
But yes in theory after the acute need of new aircrafts for the russian airlines are covered, after 2029 some of the production capabilities for the Tu-214 could be dedicated instead to the Tu-330 military cargo aircraft, maybe in a modernised version and with a PD-16 or PD-18 engine, which will need to be developed anyway for the MC-21-400 and its extra long range version.
Except it is not in serial production. They stopped production and moved it to an entirely new building. It also used some Western avionics and other systems which will now have to be replaced. And tested.GarryB wrote:I think the Tu-214 still makes sense simply because it is in low rate serial production and right now it is a Russian aircraft not subject to sanctions by the west.
This is false. Because the Tu-214 uses the exact same engine and avionics suppliers as the MC-21. Aviadvigatel and KRET. Worse of all is that the PS-90 engines the Tu-214 uses are more labor intensive than the PD-14 engines used in the MC-21. i.e. it is a worse engine that takes longer to build.GarryB wrote:By producing Tu-214s you take some pressure off the production of Superjet and MS-21 aircraft and get Russian aircraft available for use replacing western types faster.
Anton Alikhanov spoke about the contract with Aeroflot and long-haul transportation
09.07.2024
On the margins of the Innoprom international exhibition in Ekaterinburg, Anton Alikhanov, Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, told journalists about the ongoing discussions on amending Aeroflot’s contract for the supply of Tu-214 and SJ-100 aircraft. The ministry considers it advisable to amend the contract, as the MS-21 aircraft is expected to overlap the capabilities of the Superjet and cover the airline’s needs.
In June, Aeroflot’s head Sergei Alexandrovsky said that under an earlier contract with UAC, the company plans to abandon the purchase of 40 Tu-214 and 89 SJ-100 aircraft and replace them with MS-21s. Earlier the group signed a framework contract for 339 Russian aircraft, of which a firm contract was signed for 52 machines.
Anton Alikhanov noted that the issue of amending the contract requires discussion and agreement with Aeroflot. The Ministry of Industry and Trade understands the position of the air carrier, which takes into account the current technological and economic parameters. The Minister emphasised that despite the importance of import substitution and certification of the SJ-100, much depends on the end user and continuing negotiations with them is a necessary step.
Alikhanov added that while the talks are at a preliminary stage, specific decisions on changes to the contract have not yet been made. The Ministry will continue dialogue with Aeroflot in order to find an optimal solution that will take into account the needs of the airline and the capabilities of the new MS-21 aircraft.
Alikhanov also noted the need to create Russian long-haul aircraft. According to him, Russia needs its own aircraft for long-haul transportations, which would fully cover the current needs. The Il-96 family is seen as a base for the development of such an aircraft, which, after the necessary modernisation, will be able to effectively perform the function of a long-haul airliner.
“We need a long-haul aircraft one hundred per cent, because these 15 per cent of traffic, a little more, which are not covered by the Superjet and MS-21, must be covered by our aircraft. Therefore, the IL family in one of the possible configurations will take over this function, taking into account the required modifications. And undoubtedly, this is the aircraft we should rely on. I am sure that we will complete this work,” he said.
https://ruavia.su/anton-alikhanov-spoke-about-the-contract-with-aeroflot-and-long-haul-transportations/
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