Competing Aircraft Designs of the 90's and Beyond

Regarding the MiG-31E

The aircraft attracted a lot of foreign interest but unfortunately no firm orders for it ever materialized.

Actually there were reports that the Chinese wanted to buy some, but as they only ordered 2 the request was denied.

Perhaps after its performance in the SMO Iran might consider a purchase of MiG-31s, or perhaps even joint development of the PAK DP?

Now this is where the role of the Ka-27 or rather the Ka-32 comes in. During the same period in 1997 a Ka-32 was also actively used as a firefighter in Cape Town. The coaxial rotors on these helicopters not only makes it a very compact helicopter, but it is also one of the most stable helicopters around.

We had some Ka-32s here for logging... the Russian pilots flew the helicopters most of the time but we had some local pilots who were long line specialists who took over when they were picking up and carrying wood.

The Kiwi pilots loved the Kamovs, they said they handled like Hughes 500 helicopters and their top speed was limited and they could probably fly much fast than they do. This despite being 12 ton helicopters. They also had very good lifting performance.

(note in forestry, being able to selectively log in very rough country without needing to put in roads or get trucks in an out means you can fly in and cut down the tree you want and cut it up into chunks that your helicopter can carry and fly them out without having to build roads all over the place or damage a lot of the rest of the forest.)

The Su-57 is a single seat fighter that is supposed to operate with drones already, not sure a second seat is needed for most roles which are highly automated on these new aircraft with an AI system to do most of the mundane stuff.

GarryB wrote:The Su-57 is a single seat fighter that is supposed to operate with drones already, not sure a second seat is needed for most roles which are highly automated on these new aircraft with an AI system to do most of the mundane stuff.

Well in a naval patrol role it can be useful as well to have a second person.

Furthermore some nations like India were interested in the 2 seats version.

I agree that in some situations or some missions having two crew might be more useful... the Su-35 is a single seat aircraft, but their decision to upgrade the Su-30 with radar and engines and systems from the Su-35 essentially is making the Su-30 into the two seat version of the Su-35. The MiG-29M and MiG-29K and MiG-35 are fitted with two seat canopies that means they can be set up for single or twin seat use too.

I rather suspect that drone swarms will need to be directed but not flown so to speak... they will operate independently but be able to follow a limited set of commands.

For instance there was an old game called Outbreak, which was a Ukrainian game BTW, where you operated a team of four soldiers in a first person shootemup... the solider you controlled you operated normally but you could set commands for the other 3 soldiers in your group. You could tell them to hold fire no matter what, fire if fired upon, or shoot anything you see when you see it. You could also order them to stick close to you (and protect you), or wander free range, or send them to specific coordinates, or you could get them to defend the location they are currently at. You can also swap into them and take control of them while the other three worked automatically.

So as a group on weapons hold you could approach an area with the other three looking for enemy (they always saw the enemy before I did and in weapons hold would report the enemy location which would appear in my head up display). You could stop a distance from the target and set two of your soldiers armed with sniper rifle and machine gun to hold this position and fire defensively to protect any member of the team. The remaining two soldiers you can take forward with the other guy spotting targets for me to shoot.

It was a rather fun game about an alien invasion... the graphics were not great but the weapons were cool as they were multi barrel guns with shotguns and SMGs and sniper rifles and lasers and rocket launchers and grenade launchers built in. The first weapon was a SMG and shotgun I think and as you progressed you added capabilities... the sniper rifle was accurate to a long range and had a powerful zoom. Ironically the best weapon was the SMG because the first round always went to point of aim so firing one shot at a time it was a sniper rifle even if bursts went all over the place...

Anyway back on topic you could have categories for the drones and set them with commands and they can use their own sensors and fly themselves most of the time.

Mir wrote:@Gazputin

Wrong thread...

Anyway not my best photoshop but I think it will look a lot more like an Su-57 than a F-14 don't you think?




I really hope you don't have trouble to differentiate between your mother and your girl friend?  

God, I miss F-14...

PapaDragon wrote:God, I miss F-14...

I believe also the US Navy is missing them.

Russia should get a few of them to keep in some museums.

And maybe, if properly maintained and safe, keep some of them operative in order to occasionally fly them from the next russian supercarrier, in a troll move against the US
(Possibly replacing the old TF-30 engines with The Al-31F3 of the Su-33.).

I just mean to have 2 or 3 F-14 carrier worthy only to troll the US, not more.

As far as next Russian naval aircraft I would say a 5th Generation MiG hopefully, unless they decide to do a carrier borne version of the su-57.

As far as next Russian naval aircraft I would say a 5th Generation MiG hopefully, unless they decide to do a carrier borne version of the su-57.

The plan all along was to have a heavy longer ranged fighter and a lighter shorter ranged fighter on the carrier, which allowed good performance from the heavy fighter (Su-33) but also added numbers with the smaller lighter aircraft (MiG-29K).

I rather suspect they wont change that and will go for the Su-57K and a carrier based MiG designed 5th gen light fighter.

But Yakovlev isnt winning anything if Sukhoi is around and neither will Mikoyan.

Sounds like Yak will be making Yak-130s and Yak-152s, while MiG will be making UTS jet trainers...

AFAIK MiG will also be working on the single engined 5th gen fighter and a twin engined carrier based light 5th gen fighter... probably to compliment the Su-57K naval heavy carrier based fighter.

Just look at Su-75 development where UAC is developing it out of their own funds and the state isn't even putting one kopeck in it.

It is not a funded programme, which suggests that the MiG- single engined light 5th gen fighter project is going ahead and is being kept secret... they did the same with the Mi-28 and Ka-50 where the Mi-28 was advertised for export while the Ka-50 was the replacement for the Hind and was going to go into serial production and was kept secret till they changed their minds about its ability to fight at night.

The SU57s stealth is very conventional. The Mig 1.44 pushed the boundaries of EM wave science..

The advantage of actual competition where lots of technologies are developed that other planes don't have... the early versions might not even be very good but over time as they are improved their performance can become adequate and even expand its capabilities to be able to do new things.

ERA to start with was only effective against HEAT warheads but evolved to allow multiple hits and also being able to reduce the penetration of kinetic rounds too.

Gun launched missiles allowed moving targets to be hit at long range, but also added the ability to hit enemy helicopters too.

Plasma stealth does not need to be on all the time... you could essentially just use it as a jammer so if you detect an incoming radar guided threat you can flick it on and disappear... just another tool on the tool belt.

Mig-1.44 is for the trash bin. It was developed with old tools, old tech and 30 years ago.

It is very funny you say this Lsos... what aircraft is France flying at the moment?

Some brand new super fighter?

Something made with old tools and old tech and isn't even 5th gen.

But you still claim it is the best fighter there is...

Like the french say, Mig needs to remove its fingers from its ass and start working.

MiG have been working harder than the French and have developed quite a range of different aircraft for their military, some of which have been rejected for various reasons and others have been purchased in very small numbers for testing to decide how to proceed.

France would need to remove their heads from their arses if they want to also get their fingers free, but there is plenty of room and they seem to like shoving things up there.

I am sure the muslims who are friends with Charlie Hebdo will be pleased at French official comments about war being war and civilians are fair game when defending yourself from an "attack".

It's not by adding some fancy things to their 40 years old airframes that they will survive.

What with putting the F-15 and F-16 back into production perhaps you should be directing that to the US?

Sukhoi does the things right.

Sukhoi was lucky to have a product in a niche market that could be cheap because it is Russian but also be a big capable fighter. The Indians did their best to make it horribly expensive by adding French and Israeli components that tripled the price, but the basic aircraft is no more amazing than the MiG-29s airframe... it is just larger and with more weapon and fuel capacity and a bigger radar... otherwise it is almost exactly the same.

A big 5th gen twin engine isn't needed since they put everything in the su-57.

They are not making a big 5th gen twin jet fighter, they are making a small 5th gen twin engined fighter.

Think about the F-35 and then think about the Chinese copy of that aircraft but fitted with two smaller engines instead of one very big engine.

The Chinese solution is actually better because those smaller lighter engines are a fraction of the price to buy and operate to that big white elephant on the F-35... the damn thing costs 30 million fucking dollars... that is the engine alone. Ridiculous.

A cheap single engine is what they need, specially for export and increase the numbers in the russian air force because the su-57 isn't gonna fill the needs in terms of numbers.

They designed single engined cheap fighters at the same time they offered the MiG-29 design in the 1970s and it was rejected in favour of the MiG-29.

The navy is very unlikely to accept a single engined aircraft for use on their carriers... they make what the customer wants so if they are making a twin engined carrier based plane to replace the MiG-29K then you can be sure that was a requirement from the Russian Navy.

Naval variant aren't needed.

The naval model is required because the land based equivalent is probably going to be a very light single engined fighter.

You have seen the models... I posted them multiple times.

Even if a ne carrier is statted it will take 12-20 years before being ready so enough time to navalise any fighter.

Except the light land based fighter is likely to be a single engined fighter which would not be acceptable to the Russian Navy.

Whether you agree with me that a new MiG single engined fighter is being developed or you think Sukhois checkmate will be adopted... both designs are single engined which would make them unsuitable for carrier use.

How is Plasma stealth "Old tech". Many have tried it and only ended up with lab demonstrators and no functional examples on an airplane. Only the Mig 1.44 achieved that.

It is highly likely they developed all sorts of new technologies for their aircraft that would be lost if these types were just written off.

The Russian Airforce doesn't want single engined fighters 1st of all. Its against their whole doctrine. 2ndly, Export deals are the last thing on Russia's mind

I completely agree. The Russian AF has said that Checkmate is not an official programme that they are involved with, but later on it might be looked at if other solutions don't pan out. The official word as I understand it is that now the Su-57 is in serial production, funding and support for the light 5th gen fighter will be supplied to MiG to create a numbers aircraft that is sophisticated and modern and capable, but not an Su-57 replacement obviously.

Something that will work together with Su-57s and S-70 drones and other platforms on various missions and also conduct missions on their own. They will be capable of carrying the full range of air to ground and air to air weapons and be light and cheap and affordable to operate in significant numbers.

MiG has two light fighter designs, one looks like a stealthy LIFT, which everyone seems to object to despite suggestions that a Yak-130 could do the job instead.

I have pointed out that a LIFT is designed as a trainer so adding all the systems needed to make it a useful combat aircraft would bring the cost up to probably more than a MiG-29M would cost and would likely not be much cheaper to operate and have less growth potential.

An aircraft designed from the outset to actually be very small but not as a trainer... as a fighter with a light payload and a relatively short range, but with stealth and excellent sensors and equipment would be a good thing but Sukhoi don't make it so you are not interested.

I rather suspect MiG will develop the single and twin engined models and let the Russian AF decide... they did it with the MiG-29.

Even the Americans did it with the USAF choosing the F-16 and the USN picking the F-18...

Well the F-35 lobby is super powerful so their F-18s are being replaced by F-35s... we will see how that goes.

Some of Russia's older customers are now warming up to US hardware as well. This is India, Egypt, Vietnam and a few others. It is frankly stupid to have export deals in mind when building such things.

To be fair most of the American shit being bought was largely because the Russians currently have lots of gaps that the Americans filled in the Indian market with Apaches and C-17s at a time when the Russian aircraft were not really combat proven or could even be made in the volumes required... Klimov were still trying to make replacement engines in volumes big enough to make new aircraft and also support existing types, and the Il-476 has not been fast in arriving and gaps are forming in the An-12 and An-26 categories. The Ka-226 had a French engine too.

Export potential is not a consideration for the Russian military, but for the Russian MIC it is where they make real money instead of the 4-5% they make from government contracts.

Whoever likes it will come and ask to buy it and whoever doesn't is insignificant to Russia.

Promotion is important because many countries are quite frankly ignorant about Russian weapons and systems and were probably surprised at how their armour and artillery and aircraft and systems and equipment has performed in Syria and the Ukraine.

And it is cheaper too.

There is a reason Turkey and India and China all bought S-400 SAMs. There are good reasons why China and India bought Flankers.

Russia benefits little from arms exports which barely make up $40 Bn in revenue for Russia.

The state does not earn much from such contracts, but the money pumped in to the Russian MIC is very important, and also leads to cooperation with the MIC of other countries which further improves things. Cooperation with the UAE led to the Pantsir going from 20km target engagement range to over 40km and lots of other innovations... not just UAE demands, but the extra funding to implement ideas instead of just showing mockups at arms shows for 20 years.

And most of Russia's potential customers get threatened by the US and leave to buy US weapons instead.. Its best to quit that game and focus on advancing Russian tech beyond the ideas of any western state.

Not at all. The fact that the US is openly and directly threatening to damage the economies of countries that trade with Russia show how threatened they are, and how useless their overpriced products really are. They can't play on an even playing field so they try to impose new rules and some countries are bitches and comply, but many others will not, like Turkey and India and China. And over time as BRICS expands and trade gathers momentum more and more countries will be able to say no to the US.

The Su57 can and will fill the need in terms of numbers. Dont know why you think that. The Su57 for export costs around $80 million but for Russia its almost less than half of that..Russia can definitely afford 100s if not 1000s of them. The tooling to pump them out isnt there yet which is why you get the delays..

I don't agree, I think the Su-57 is a very cheap aircraft considering what it is, but its operational costs wont be cheap compared with a lighter simpler aircraft to operate with it. The MiG-35 is not a lot cheaper than an Su-35 but it is rather cheaper to operate which is where it makes sense. There are locations you can base them where they don't need to fly 2,000km because the targets they are protecting are nearby... that means they get there sooner and wont wander off and not be there when you need them. They are different vehicles suited to different roles.

First of all: 2 smaller engines do not cost 2 times as much as one much larger engine.

Furthermore the french over expensive stuff sells also because of corruption (in the case or India) or to buy services from France (or because it was the only possibility if you do not want to buy from the americans but you cannot risk American sanctions buying russian.

It is not bad but it was never used in a near peer conflict either.
Furthermore we do not know how it would behave in a real war with a lot of sorties in short time.
As far as I know, rafale operating and maintenance costs are also very high compared to russian 4++ gen fighters.

I really cannot understand how you can say at the same time say that mig 35 is old crap and the rafale is much better.

As far as the Mig-35 radar, we do not have official info about the status and readiness of the AESA radar. The fact that is not present in the first 6 serial production Mig-35 does not mean much.

And concerning naval fighter or anyway a brand new  light/ medium twin engine multirole fighter from MiG, such development (especially a new engine) lasts at least 10 years, more than the time needed to build a supercarrier.
If it ends up being a good product it can be sold also to India, by the way, unless you believe than in 15 years the rafale will still be the best plane ever.

Russia just finished developing and testing the AL-51 engine. Maybe Saturn and Klimov engineer can cooperate to design and develop a new engine with a similar thrust range as the Klimov RD-33. It is not that they have to stop working on modern fighter engines until they will have to do a successor to the AL-51

Ah. I know Catia, I used it as a student. It is a good (but very expensive) software.
Russia anyway is developing its own design, modeling and analysis softwares. Maybe they will need some time to get to a similar level than other dedicated software which have decades of experience, but eventually they will get there. Russia has a lot of very capable software engineers and mechanical/aerospace engineers to use and validate them.


And we do not know the actual plans for the aircraft carrier. Most probably nothing will start before the end of the SMO, but maybe in one year from now they will start rebuilding the black sea shipyard in Nikolaev and slowly prepare the construction of a next generation nuclear powered carrier similar to the Ulyanovsk. (It would be nice if the name was something like Josif Stalin aircraft carrier class, if not also Grigory Potemkin would be a nice name)