Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

This is not very clear to me, probably due to translation:
"...an identical ship at the bow and below the waterline with specialized superstructures that are provided for various tasks"
So the same hull that can configured for different missions ("modular" vessel) or will it have just one configuration??

Tsavo Lion wrote:

This is not very clear to me, probably due to translation:
"...an identical ship at the bow and below the waterline with specialized superstructures that are provided for various tasks"
So the same hull that can configured for different missions ("modular" vessel) or will it have just one configuration??

In the original Russian it means "the same TAKR layout but with specific permanent superstructures for those extra functions", i.e. for helo carrier & ampib. assault.
The QE of the RN combines a CV & LHD in 1 ship.  

GarryB wrote:So what they are talking about is pretty much what the Russian Army did with its armoured vehicles...

The BMP chassis was used on an enormous range of vehicles as the basis... including but not limited to IFV, APC, engineer, ambulance, recon, and a lot of other uses.

What they are basically saying is the the ship part of the ship will be standardised, so they could make a dozen of those, and then the filling will be defined by what they want the ship for... ie fixed wing carrier, helicopter carrier, landing ship, arsenal ship, whatever.

They actually made 5 Orlan class ships... four of them we know as Kirov class cruisers, while the other is a huge intel ship.

Imagine if they had used the same hull to create the Kiev class vessels... it is the same thing.

They wont change between roles once built.... which is what Papa was thinking I suspect... a Mistral type vessel but much larger that could be used as a landing ship or a helo carrier or a VSTOL carrier...

Personally I would like to see a larger fixed wing carrier in the 70-80K ton range... they could unify the hull design with the escort cruiser that will operate with it.

I would also like to see a helo carrier/landing ship like a seriously scaled up Mistral but better armed that could carry helos or STOVL aircraft.

They could make 10 of the big vessels... 2 x CVN, and 8 of the big cruisers, and four super mistrals...

LMFS wrote:I am tempted to think it has the worst of both: slow and only capable for STOVL like the LHD, without well deck and capacity for land vehicles like a carrier... or am I wrong?

Wow a 70k ton cruiser? Has anybody ever created anything like this after ww2?

hoom wrote:

Wow a 70k ton cruiser? Has anybody ever created anything like this after ww2?

Sure, the big K.
Kuznetsov is afterall a Heavy Aircraft-Carrying Missile Cruiser  
Kievs too at 45Kton.

hoom wrote:
Kirovs are the biggest post-WWII era pure surface combatant.
But the Kirovs are less than half the size of K and I really think Gary just made a bit of a brain-fart there.

LMFS wrote:TAKR only means the carrier is denominated "cruiser" so it fits Montreaux terminology and has some weapons accordingly, it does not mean it is small or multipurpose.

kumbor wrote:
Maybe, but cruiser hull must have very different hydrodynamic properties, different L/B ratio, different seaspeed in range of 28-30 knots, not less. LHD/LPD/LHA are different ships, requiring much more hull space than cruiser, they must be broader, fatter, they are slower by definition and have a well deck on the stern. Japanese have built and are building a kind of multipurpose ships - big destroyer with assault ship capabilities, but they are a hell of a cost, that Russia cannot afford!

GarryB wrote:Personally I would like to see a larger fixed wing carrier in the 70-80K ton range... they could unify the hull design with the escort cruiser that will operate with it.

kumbor wrote:Maybe, but cruiser hull must have very different hydrodynamic properties, different L/B ratio, different seaspeed in range of 28-30 knots, not less. LHD/LPD/LHA are different ships, requiring much more hull space than cruiser, they must be broader, fatter, they are slower by definition and have a well deck on the stern. Japanese have built and are building a kind of multipurpose ships - big destroyer with assault ship capabilities, but they are a hell of a cost, that Russia cannot afford!

LMFS wrote:

kumbor wrote:Maybe, but cruiser hull must have very different hydrodynamic properties, different L/B ratio, different seaspeed in range of 28-30 knots, not less. LHD/LPD/LHA are different ships, requiring much more hull space than cruiser, they must be broader, fatter, they are slower by definition and have a well deck on the stern. Japanese have built and are building a kind of multipurpose ships - big destroyer with assault ship capabilities, but they are a hell of a cost, that Russia cannot afford!

Exactly. Unification of LHDs and carriers is something only the multi-keel design would allow, otherwise the LHD would not have internal volume and well deck or the carrier would have no speed. I still think they will make LHDs with roles of transport, amphibious assault, helicopter carrier and STOVL carrier, with well decks and a flight deck. So multi-purpose according to their understanding. Maybe between 20 and 30 kT. Can only imagine destroyers and carriers will be kept differentiated, it does not really make sense to me to unify hulls for them.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:

kumbor wrote:Maybe, but cruiser hull must have very different hydrodynamic properties, different L/B ratio, different seaspeed in range of 28-30 knots, not less. LHD/LPD/LHA are different ships, requiring much more hull space than cruiser, they must be broader, fatter, they are slower by definition and have a well deck on the stern. Japanese have built and are building a kind of multipurpose ships - big destroyer with assault ship capabilities, but they are a hell of a cost, that Russia cannot afford!

Exactly. Unification of LHDs and carriers is something only the multi-keel design would allow, otherwise the LHD would not have internal volume and well deck or the carrier would have no speed. I still think they will make LHDs with roles of transport, amphibious assault, helicopter carrier and STOVL carrier, with well decks and a flight deck. So multi-purpose according to their understanding. Maybe between 20 and 30 kT. Can only imagine destroyers and carriers will be kept differentiated, it does not really make sense to me to unify hulls for them.

I love to read posts of seasoned ship designers with constructive critics of less experiences Russian colleagues.        

QE2 can carry up to 900 Marines
De Gaulle can carry up to 800

4 missions. Let's count '
1) Aircraft Carrier
2) helo carrier
3) LHD
4) ???? what is 4th? a cruiser?

Kuz is TAKR with removed missiles though still VLS tubes are still there AFAIK.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:I love to read posts of seasoned ship designers with constructive critics of less experiences Russian colleagues.        

QE2 can carry up to 900 Marines
De Gaulle can carry up to 800

kumbor wrote:Fact that Kuz. is registered as "aircraft carrying cruiser" dates from the times when shipbuilding department was hardly opposed to "aircraft carriers" as the "Nests of american aggression". Now these days are over, marshall Ustinov died long time ago, and there are no principal opponents to the idea of aircraft carrier as such. In every way except political idiocy, Kuz. is an aircraft carrier.

Do they have well decks? Space for land vehicles and ramps to load them into the ship? They can transport as many marines as you want but they are not be amphibious assault vessels, a cruise ship could do that too.

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Do they have well decks? Space for land vehicles and ramps to load them into the ship? They can transport as many marines as you want but they are not be amphibious assault vessels, a cruise ship could do that too.

LHDs can do it better, while this new ship can also put dozens of marines & some of their gear ashore with Mi-38s, Ka-29/-52s, & future tilt-rotors.

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:I love to read posts of seasoned ship designers with constructive critics of less experiences Russian colleagues.        

Don't be a moron, I was talking about STOBAR /CATOBAR type carriers, almost all of which have streamlined hulls and speeds close to 30 kt, while LHDs have big fat hulls with as much internal space as possible and speeds hardly above 20 kt. The type Russia has announced is compatible with carrying STOVL to support an expeditionary force but to my knowledge is not meaning a sudden alteration of naval strategy which clearly indicates the development of new carriers, detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.

LMFS wrote:detailed in further statements as vessels similar or bigger than the K.

kumbor wrote:
Fact that Kuz. is registered as "aircraft carrying cruiser" dates from the times when shipbuilding department was hardly opposed to "aircraft carriers" as the "Nests of american aggression".

Tsavo Lion wrote:

4 missions. Let's count '
1) Aircraft Carrier
2) helo carrier
3) LHD
4) ???? what is 4th? a cruiser?

The 4th mission of the new ship is anti-surface, BMD & land attack, i.e. what cruisers r for.

Tsavo wrote:

Kuz is TAKR with removed missiles though still VLS tubes are still there AFAIK.

In keeping with its designation, it will have Ash/LACMs after the refit.

- Igor Sergeyevich, if possible, indicate, please, the prospects for the development of naval aviation for a long period of time, for example, until 2050.
- As I have already mentioned, in naval aviation it is planned to modernize the existing fleet of aircraft and their phased replacement with promising aviation complexes.


At the first stage (until 2020), an active modernization of the existing aircraft fleet is carried out. We are also talking about the replacement of special aircraft with new types of aircraft, the inclusion of assault and transport-assault ship-based helicopters (Ka-52K), naval unmanned aerial vehicles into the combat strength of the naval fighter aircraft units (MiG-29K / KUB). In total, up to 2020 it is planned to supply more than 100 aircraft to the naval aviation of the Navy.


At the second stage (2021-2030 years) will continue to upgrade the entire fleet of aircraft and helicopters of naval aviation and re-equipment of fighter-assault aircraft coastal-based, there will begin mass production of advanced aviation patrol complex, a promising multi-purpose helicopter complex coastal and ship-based combat helicopter ship-based.
The naval aviation, should receive:
shipborne radar patrol aircraft
shipborne unmanned aerial vehicles,
promising aviation complex of naval aviation.



In the third stage (2031-2050 years) in naval aviation is expected to move to a new generation of multi-functional aircraft and adopt a new generation of high-precision air-based weapon systems, the combat capabilities of anti-submarine and multi-purpose patrol aircraft will be increased due to the re-equipment of anti-submarine regiments to a multi-purpose ship helicopter and a patrol aircraft of the far zone.

Search and rescue helicopters of amphibious class of the far zone will be created, including for operations in the Arctic and Arctic sea shelves.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:OK, Lads you wanted official statements of MoD? here it comes.:
the Chief of Naval Aviation of the Navy, Hero of Russia, Major General Igor KOZHIN , talks about upgrading and modernizing the fleet, improving the infrastructure and the development prospects in general  

Krasnya Zvezda is an official MoD paper.

generally the whole interview is interesting but I quoted only part related to this thread:

1) new deck fighter before 2030...
2) new aircraft AEW/AWACS le's see what  platform it will be based on
3) new deck helo - also used as assault one.


in third stage a long-range amphibious helicopter!!!!      




http://redstar.ru/po-puti-obnovleniya/

- Igor Sergeyevich, if possible, indicate, please, the prospects for the development of naval aviation for a long period of time, for example, until 2050.
- As I have already mentioned, in naval aviation it is planned to modernize the existing fleet of aircraft and their phased replacement with promising aviation complexes.


At the first stage (until 2020), an active modernization of the existing aircraft fleet is carried out. We are also talking about the replacement of special aircraft with new types of aircraft, the inclusion of assault and transport-assault ship-based helicopters (Ka-52K), naval unmanned aerial vehicles into the combat strength of the naval fighter aircraft units (MiG-29K / KUB). In total, up to 2020 it is planned to supply more than 100 aircraft to the naval aviation of the Navy.


At the second stage (2021-2030 years) will continue to upgrade the entire fleet of aircraft and helicopters of naval aviation and re-equipment of fighter-assault aircraft coastal-based, there will begin mass production of advanced aviation patrol complex, a promising multi-purpose helicopter complex coastal and ship-based combat helicopter ship-based.
The naval aviation, should receive:
shipborne radar patrol aircraft
shipborne unmanned aerial vehicles,
promising aviation complex of naval aviation.



In the third stage (2031-2050 years) in naval aviation is expected to move to a new generation of multi-functional aircraft and adopt a new generation of high-precision air-based weapon systems, the combat capabilities of anti-submarine and multi-purpose patrol aircraft will be increased due to the re-equipment of anti-submarine regiments to a multi-purpose ship helicopter and a patrol aircraft of the far zone.

Search and rescue helicopters of amphibious class of the far zone will be created, including for operations in the Arctic and Arctic sea shelves.

Naval Aviation

For the Russian Naval Aviation the focus in the first phase will be the development and serial production of an advanced maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) by 2020.

Additionally, Russia will look to develop and produce a new shore/ship-based multirole helicopter (to replace the Ka-27) and acquire a ship-based combat helicopter (the Ka-52K). Russia will also seek to develop advanced airborne strike systems.

The second phase will see the deployment of the new Russian ship-based radar surveillance aircraft, ship-based UAVs, and ship-based strike aircraft. The 2021-2030 period will see the Russian Naval Aviation transition to optionally piloted aircraft, including those derived from existing manned aircraft. Obsolete aircraft are to be replaced by modern, multirole manned and unmanned aircraft. During the 2031-2050 phase naval aviation focus will switch to a new generation of multirole aircraft and UAVs and field a new generation of airborne precision weapon systems.