Future russian aircraft carriers. #3

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
1) I love to hear the laser/EW weapons are to you SCi-Fi, perhaps it is good to read sometimes military news? I can see the same denial as before with VSTOL
Survability is first of all using weapons to shoot down missiles, dazzle their sensors or cook electronics. if there  be any special armor dunno.

Earlier, the chief of the Air and Space Forces of Russia, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev, announced the possibility of using laser weapons on the MiG-35 aircraft

Coming in 2021: A laser weapon for fighter jets

2) when what?
well do you know when Russian CVNs will be build? how many VSTOL fighters? will they carry maser or lasers?  BTW why do you peddling    Su-57k , did anybody ever  mentioned about this version? AFAIK was only once on plastic model of Shtorm. Which is not going to be build BTW  

You dont need something made of gold and the best. You need a good work horse thet you can afford. PzKpfw V was a bit better  then T-34-85/M4 Sherman but was build 1:6.
My educated guess is that VSTOL will be in many respects 6gn fighter (supermaneuverability, short start/vertical, efficient engine, microwave/ laser weapons, advanced avionics (drone mode?) . This is not going to replace Su-57 but complete is as MiG-29/Su-27 then Su-30 will be gradually withdrawn.  VSTOL is perhaps mainly die to better usage of small medium displacement ships. There is no need fo rany deck fighter before 2030s anyway.

That's how financial restrictions helps to overcome megalomania.

Mind VSTOL is approved officially unlike Su-57k. It dosent even exist in far far away plans.

GarryB wrote:

in fact you dont need Su-57 at all! neither 6gen fighter Russia is workin on.

Of course you do... it is always good to have aircraft superior to any potential enemy... which is what the MiG-35, and Su-35, and MiG-31 are... Su-57s just take it up another level....  

No su-33is dead branch only waiting to be decommissioned.

Su-33 is a perfectly good airframe that just needs a new radar and new missiles to be very very dangerous.

New missiles and new fighters it wont stop just like that. Missiles good for F-22 perhaps wont be good against F/AXX.

The planes they launch them from are just missile trucks... the difference will be the hundred million dollar plus US missile trucks and the 20 million dollar Russian ones...

when your wife says in the morning: honey it was adequate, Im not sure if this is reason to celebrate

Reminds me of a joke... a prostitute is in bed and the huge biker customer is taking off his pants and out pops a tiny little one inch penis. She looks at him and asks... who is that supposed to satisfy... to which he replies... Me.

why use 4 gen dead "adequate" fighter (in 2030 also lifecycle of air-frames/engines are et the end) if you get 6th one, better in every scenario?  

The Su-57s can go on the new carriers, and any 6th gen UCAVs can be deployed on both carrier types...

so actually they need 3 to have almost 2 operational at the same time. Before 3 is launched Kuz will be dead.  

They need three carriers in total, so with the K they need two CVNs to achieve that... eventually the K can be retired and replaced with a third CVN.

You dont need something made of gold and the best. You need a good work horse thet you can afford.

They are not going to have thousands of carrier based fighters so there is no point in developing a whole new aircraft especially for the job, but of the land based aircraft to pick from it makes no sense to pick an old aircraft like a MiG-23... pick the newest and most capable and keep using what you have got until that is ready to replace it.

LMFS wrote:
By now it is not even close to being operational. It will come probably, but we are still far from that. Countermeasures will be developed and doctrine will need to be adapted. It is still unclear if these weapons will make a change in the kind of platforms used for air combat, maybe in the future fighters are substituted for transport planes with huge DEW and stocks of drones and/or missiles, who knows. So if traditional fighters are still applicable, these systems could be implemented on a Su-57. If not, the F/A-XX would be obsolete too, if ever developed at all.

2) when what?
Su-57K has been a recurring discussion of course, but there is no official confirmation as of now. But hope dies last you know

Differently to fictional F/A-XX and STOVL, the baseline model already flies. And the K is there.

Still not clear how you want to meet the threats with less planes not better than those from USN or what the posture is going to be, if you can't meet them.

That's how financial restrictions helps to overcome megalomania.

This I agree. But a naval version of the Su-57, three or four carriers like the K but modern and good AWACS/AEW/Tanker solutions are not megalomania IMO. Maybe yes for UK but not for Russia.

Mind VSTOL is approved officially unlike Su-57k. It dosent even exist in far far away plans.

We'll see...  

GunshipDemocracy wrote:So you think US navy will remains without any fighters after 2030s? there is constant change that's why you need constantly design new fighters/weapons too. Not to get stuck with 50years old tech because its cute      

K is there in 2022 (oops 2021 is fictional right?) Su-57 is in 2 pieces. Great  Of course Su-57 was till this year also fictional you know       MiG-35 is gonna be fictional too. The truth is you dont have anything yet in Russian navy atm.

The truth si simple. You newer have a parity with Us navy. Ever. Thats why you need something to do assumed tasks but not to kill your budget (0.1 US one)  And your task is not fighting midway battles.

I dont see any budget means for those ambitious plans till 2027, and IMHO unlikely after. BTW Su-57k is like a ghost to me. You saw it but nobody else did.

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:So you think US navy will remains without any fighters after 2030s? there is constant change that's why you need constantly design new fighters/weapons too. Not to get stuck with 50years old tech because its cute      

They will have robust numbers of unparalleled & unmatched, freedom-powering multirole F-35Cs, together with upgraded F/A-18E/F (the plane piloted by Maverick!   ). Who could wish for something better?

K is there in 2022 (oops 2021 is fictional right?) Su-57 is in 2 pieces. Great  Of course Su-57 was till this year also fictional you know       MiG-35 is gonna be fictional too. The truth is you dont have anything yet in Russian navy atm.

Some basic semantics my friend: fictional is when you only see a CGI or even worse fan art. When you see actual pictures of planes flying and ships sailing it is called "real"  

The truth si simple. You newer have a parity with Us navy. Ever. Thats why you need something to do assumed tasks but not to kill your budget (0.1 US one)  And your task is not fighting midway battles.

You seem to love Midway. We just talk about the air cover you need to avoid embarrassing provocations or being ousted from a disputed area, without this you are realistically only going to operate in undisputed regions. I proposed a way to achieve serious deterrence against CSGs with minimum modifications to existing HW and with much smaller numbers and investment than USN

I dont see any budget means for those ambitious plans till 2027, and IMHO unlikely after. BTW Su-57k is like a ghost to me. You saw it but nobody else did.

You and Vlad must be really close if you got to see the detailed budget of the current armament program  

GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  

not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  

The F-35 is not apt as a fighter? Go tell the allies and the USAF please, they will adore the news.

not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.

2 squadrons F-35C per CVN makes 240 planes. So if they ordered 340 (not checked it) they would have some spares
F/A-18 was from the beginning a strike fighter, not air superiority specialised fighter.
Sorry for the bad news, but if they have to get a substitute by 2030 based on the progress pace of F/A-XX they are royally screwed  
Only half intelligent solution would be the F-22/F-35 hybrid in naval variant but that would leave Boeing in a very bad situation...

kumbor wrote:
USAF, Navy and Marines cannot approve to put in service bad aircraft. So, F-35 is not a bad plane.But, it is underperforming, underpowered for a fighter, incapable to be real strike aircraft, it is prohibitively expensive and it is full of mechanical, electronical and software "gremlins". As everything that is meant to be universal, every special task cannot be performed on the same level. It has superior radar, potentially state of the art electronics once "gremlins' are wiped out" and AMRAAM missiles are excellent. But it cannot survive in combat with superior, equal in way of electronics, dedicated fighter. F-35 will be not more than adequate for some missions, and mediocre for some others. It may be a good plane, but it`s a disaster in way of economics, maintenance and logistics. poor value for HUUUUGE money!

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  

The F-35 is not apt as a fighter? Go tell the allies and the USAF please, they will adore the news.

not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.

2 squadrons F-35C per CVN makes 240 planes. So if they ordered 340 (not checked it) they would have some spares
F/A-18 was from the beginning a strike fighter, not air superiority specialised fighter.
Sorry for the bad news, but if they have to get a substitute by 2030 based on the progress pace of F/A-XX they are royally screwed  
Only half intelligent solution would be the F-22/F-35 hybrid in naval variant but that would leave Boeing in a very bad situation...

F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.

Isos wrote:

F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.

They are more talking about new f-18 and new f-15 than this thing.

F-35 that is manned has so many bugs that they are still working on it and they will work probably for a couple years more.

F/AXX is meant to be even more sofisticated and unmanned. It's not gonna be ready before 2040/2045 for sure.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:No they wont. F-35 will never will be and AFAIK never was planned to take all.  

The F-35 is not apt as a fighter? Go tell the allies and the USAF please, they will adore the news.

they already know it is good for bombing low tech countries or fighting with low tech fighters as Su-33      

not all are in US navy but F-35 was never planned for navy in such numbers.  BTW So far ordered 340. Even if they will double numbers is still nto even close satisfy USN needs.
I wake of  many years of delays and failing project they will be even less then planned. IMHO gets to attack functions where stealth and payload counts.  F/AXX will take over F-18 role as fighter at first.

2 squadrons F-35C per CVN makes 240 planes. So if they ordered 340 (not checked it) they would have some spares
F/A-18 was from the beginning a strike fighter, not air superiority specialised fighter.
Sorry for the bad news, but if they have to get a substitute by 2030 based on the progress pace of F/A-XX they are royally screwed  
Only half intelligent solution would be the F-22/F-35 hybrid in naval variant but that would leave Boeing in a very bad situation...

wiki says: USN - F-35C 260 planned (80 on Marines land base ;-) .  For 10 CVNs 75 fighters each doesnt make numbers needed to replace all right?

F-18 shall be replaced by 2040s not 2030s. 2030s they will start the process. Same as Russians with Su-33/MiG-29k.
MiG-29 wasnt also designed as air superiority fighter either. On CVN you dotn need such. You need also strike platform to bomb land/sea targets.  Build hybrid F-22/F-35 so again risk spending billions for nothing?

F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.



As you like CGI here you have yet another one:

kumbor wrote:
I am in doubt if new MiG fighter will look like this. Russians turned down one engined airframes 30 years ago. Aerodynamically it has some similarities with MiG-29 with its joint fuselage/wings as lift surfaces. Maybe Yak-130 can be also rebuilt as the light fighter, with, say 1,5M speed and good climb rate.

kumbor wrote:USAF, Navy and Marines cannot approve to put in service bad aircraft. So, F-35 is not a bad plane.But, it is underperforming, underpowered for a fighter, incapable to be real strike aircraft, it is prohibitively expensive and it is full of mechanical, electronical and software "gremlins". As everything that is meant to be universal, every special task cannot be performed on the same level. It has superior radar, potentially state of the art electronics once "gremlins' are wiped out" and AMRAAM missiles are excellent. But it cannot survive in combat with superior, equal in way of electronics, dedicated fighter. F-35 will be not more than adequate for some missions, and mediocre for some others. It may be a good plane, but it`s a disaster in way of economics, maintenance and logistics. poor value for HUUUUGE money!

kumbor wrote:I am in doubt if new MiG fighter will look like this. Russians turned down one engined airframes 30 years ago. Aerodynamically it has some similarities with MiG-29 with its joint fuselage/wings as lift surfaces. Maybe Yak-130 can be also rebuilt as the light fighter, with, say 1,5M speed and good climb rate.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:wiki says: USN - F-35C 260 planned (80 on Marines land base ;-) .  For 10 CVNs 75 fighters each doesnt make numbers needed to replace all right?

F-18 shall be replaced by 2040s not 2030s. 2030s they will start the process. Same as Russians with Su-33/MiG-29k.
MiG-29 wasnt also designed as air superiority fighter either. On CVN you dotn need such. You need also strike platform to bomb land/sea targets.  Build hybrid F-22/F-35 so again risk spending billions for nothing?

F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.

As you like CGI here you have yet another one:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

kumbor wrote:
I am in doubt if new MiG fighter will look like this. Russians turned down one engined airframes 30 years ago. Aerodynamically it has some similarities with MiG-29 with its joint fuselage/wings as lift surfaces. Maybe Yak-130 can be also rebuilt as the light fighter, with, say 1,5M speed and good climb rate.

All depends on tasks and price they want to pay. Simple,mass produced light fighter can have one.

kumbor wrote:
Impossible! Nowadays there is no weapon system, especially aircraft, that can be simple, mass produced and cheap. Even prop Tucano, if new, costs some 10M$

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:wiki says: USN - F-35C 260 planned (80 on Marines land base ;-) .  For 10 CVNs 75 fighters each doesnt make numbers needed to replace all right?

Two squadron fighters per CVN, not 75 units. That would be 480 fighters in total,

When the reckoning day comes, they will find themselves having two options: increase numbers of F-35Cs or upgrade the F-18s. There is no time for developing something new unless they use this hybrid thing to skip some development steps, and even then I am being optimistic that they could navalize it somehow (airframe of F-22 was not designed for carrier operation). It really doesn't look good for USN.

F-18 shall be replaced by 2040s not 2030s. 2030s they will start the process. Same as Russians with Su-33/MiG-29k.
MiG-29 wasnt also designed as air superiority fighter either. On CVN you dotn need such. You need also strike platform to bomb land/sea targets.  Build hybrid F-22/F-35 so again risk spending billions for nothing?

F/AXX is on same level as MiG-41 or Russian 6gen fighter or VSTOL one. And more less same time they can be introduced.

As you like CGI here you have yet another one:
Yeah some guy took a MiG-29, edited a single engine onto it and then placed black areas pretending to be intakes in some random place, so? It looks Russian but makes no sense.

GarryB wrote:

10x24 is 240 not 480

Reading comprehension buddy... he said:

"Two squadron fighters per CVN, not 75 units. That would be 480 fighters in total, "

Which you posted yourself... 10 x 24 x2 = 480...

BTWcheck this out russia russia russia here you got on Kuz

The air group would cost more than the ship it is based on... pathetic... of course if you wanted a real fighter you could put Ka-52Ks and just use the F-35s for ballast.

hoom wrote:Apparently F-35 squadrons will be 10 planes each.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

hoom wrote:Apparently F-35 squadrons will be 10 planes each.

then we have 200ok 3 squadrons is 300 fighters... you need 750 at least...

LMFS wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

hoom wrote:Apparently F-35 squadrons will be 10 planes each.

then we have 200ok 3 squadrons is 300 fighters... you need 750 at least...

My bad I wrote 2 squadrons where I wanted to write 4 squadrons fighters per CVN... if those are 10 planes each you need "only" 400 planes + spares, not 750!!

KRET announced the development of laser protection for the sixth generation fighter

The Radioelectronic Technologies Concern (KRET) is developing a laser shield for a sixth generation fighter that will physically burn the homing heads of enemy missiles attacking the aircraft.

As adviser to the first deputy director general of the KRET Vladimir Mikheyev said on Thursday, there are already laser protection systems on airplanes and helicopters, and now they talk about work in the field of power lasers that will physically destroy the homing heads of attacking missiles.