T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

https://www.russiadefence.net/t2511p500-russian-army-atgm-thread#292381

Post number 511.

Uralvagonzavod, which is part of the Rostekh State Corporation, sent a batch of upgraded T-72B3 tanks to the Russian Ministry of Defense. The combat vehicles received a new powerful engine, a modern fire control system, a rear view camera and a Mehvod display complex.

The work was carried out as part of the state defense order, under which the T-72B tanks received from the Remfund underwent an overhaul and deep upgrade to the T-72B3 level. During the development of the T-72 tank, the designers laid down a significant upgrade potential, which is now being actively used.

The upgrade affected almost all systems, which resulted in improved maneuverability and increased firepower and protection. One of the main solutions is to equip the vehicle with additional protection modules in the so-called soft case, which increased the armor resistance without significantly increasing the weight of the tank.

The T-72B3 is also equipped with a new high-power power plant, a rear view camera, a modern digital communication system, and a mechanic-driver display complex. The combat vehicle is equipped with a new fire control system with a target follow-through automatic weapon, which allows to significantly reduce the time spent on training gunners-operators without reducing the effectiveness of firing. The Russian-made thermal imaging channels have the same characteristics as those previously installed in foreign countries.

Each tank has passed acceptance tests, during which officers of the military mission personally checked all systems from the driver's, gunner-operator's and commander's positions. As a result, the combat vehicles were accepted by the customer.

https://rostec.ru/news/uralvagonzavod-postavil-minoborony-rossii-modernizirovannye-tanki-t-72b3/

In what way is the Ayy'Brapps any better? It has most if not all ammo sitting within the turret, a location far more likely to be hit than any other on the tank. Any penetrating hit through the frontal armor has a very high chance of punching through the measly thick ammo doors immediately behind, allowing the crews a nice hot dose of propellant gases as the ammo vents after being set alight by the outgoing projectile. M1 crews should be thanking their lucky stars the Russians never made it a habit of exporting their very best ammo to their clients or even non-neutered domestic articles, as those would have surely gave a lot of them very, very bad ends.

limb wrote:
Name me a single case of the cookoff in an abrams bustle killing crew. not destroying the engine, tank, or whatever, but specifically killing crew. Name. one.
 
[...]

But its completely disingenous to imply that blow off panels are ineffective, because there simply is zero evidence to prove theyre not effective. Even russians proved theyre effective.

Its completely disingenuous to misrepresent the position of the person you are talking to and shift the argument to a different point entirely, either.
I'm sorry, but I can't really do a rebuttal to a response to a point that I haven't made.

kvs wrote:

I can't be bothered to watch a video with such a BS title.   The Ukr T-64 was bar none the worst Soviet tank (*).
This was actually a pattern.   Ukr-stan had a strong influence in the Soviet hierarchy which steered development
projects to itself by claiming they could do the job better.   In the end, they sabotaged viable projects with
dead end "superior" ones.  

The T-72 was a response to the T-64 disaster that bypassed Ukr-stan.    It's funny how all sorts of Russia hating
maggots, such as Trotsky and Brzezhinski, harped about Russia being nothing without Ukr-stan.  What a sick joke.
Ukr-stan was a yoke on Russia's neck and the best thing to have happened to Russia in the last 200+ years is to
finally unload this steaming POS.    And we can see how fast the POS is swirling the toilet bowl.   It is Ukr-stan
that is nothing without Russia that is why they have so much resentment and hate towards Russia.

(*) Adjusted for time.   Comparing the 1930s to 1960s is nonsensical.

The people behind the T-64 were egotistical and selfish jackasses who intentionally designed a product only they make and maintain just to shit on the other Soviet tank factories. The T-64 is a marvel of technology for sure with lots of novelties but the machines were capricious pieces of crap as a result. They didn't care that the Soviet Army would want a tank that wasn't entirely alien to extant logistics, nor one that could be produced and supported by all the other tank bureaus, they just wanted to enforce their own monopoly. Too bad the Soviet MoD were wiser to their BS and had UVZ make a tank that is about as good but without much of the difficulties associated with the T-64 line and ever since then Kharkovites have always had suffered from a severe case of butthurt when it came to the subject of Russian tanks.

limb wrote:

Implying separate ammo compartments with blowout panels don't work, when there is 0 evidence from both russians and westerners that they don't.

And you're arguing from ignorance. I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure that a vessel designed to divert building internal pressure via alternate pathways would not properly work if there are holes aside from those said pathways. Instead the gases would leave through those holes as well, and if they lead to the crew compartment filled with exposed crewmembers and flammable hydraulic lines its game over. What part of this is so difficult to wrap your head around that you require explicit examples?

Anyway I find it hilarious that Abrams fans always always mention that the blowout panels are the path of least resistance for the gas when it comes to explaining if and how they work, but ignore that in the case of a battle damage a gaping hole in the ammo doors would be that path of least resistance instead. Double-think much?

It was meant to face m1 abrams and leopard 1 on european countryside head on.

It was not meant to face m1a2 with total air domination with thermals with outdated rounds and no optics in a storm in the middle of the desert. Even less designed to face ATGM on a buildings in the middle of a city.

Correct. The T-64 and its replacement T-80 were the expensive high tech tanks that would take on HATO tanks, the T-72 was an affordable simplified tank that was reliable and cheap and made in enormous numbers to try to replace the T-54/55 and T-62 from the inventory and move them into storage.

It was the good enough tank that would be the numbers tank that would support the T-64 and then T-80.

In that sense it should be compared with the M60 and Leopard I and AMX30.

It was constantly upgraded and got better armour and new ERA as it became available and generally matched western upgrades of vehicles and equipment.... most of the time it was ahead of the game and even the best western tanks would struggle to defeat it easily, while it would be superior to previous generation tanks in numbers in service in HATO.

Technically speaking it has some bad points however. Crew sitting on ammo. Rear speed very bad. Not very powerfull engine. Compact so any hit would make the ammo explode. T-80U was much better. And they didn't correct those mistakes on first t-90, only on t-90MS.

Of course it wasn't perfect... the ammo in the autoloader was as safe as it could possibly be... a penetrating hit there on any tank would likely kill the crew anyway, because that is where the crew was.

Reverse speed wasn't great but this is an attacking tank with the NBC system turned on driving forward through radioactive rubble. The engine was not that powerful but it also was not a very heavy tank. Better to be a smaller target... not so important now with ballistic computers and auto tracking aiming systems.

Actually the autoloader on the T-80 and T-64 proved to be much worse... any penetration of the turret sent a shower of sparks onto the propellent stubs igniting them almost immediately.

As found in Grozny with the T-72 and T-90 if you only had ammo in the autoloader it had protection from small fragments and sparks and protected the propellent stubs, which were the primary cause of tanks brewing up when hit. It was the loose rounds in the turret and beside the driver that were the problem... with ammo in the autoloader only it was a vastly safer tank to operate.

It has most if not all ammo sitting within the turret, a location far more likely to be hit than any other on the tank.

Because of its shape the side and rear of the Abrams turret is an enormous target most of the time and is very vulnerable once you know where to aim even with old anti armour weapons.

Also prove that if an APFSDS round penetrates the T-72 compartment, the spalling wont cause a cookoff.
AFAIK, only the T-90M has any resemblance of RHA or antispall protection on its carousel autoloader.

The T-72 and the T-90 have both the rounds in the autoloader and the propellent stubs lying horizontal in the autoloader... 22 rounds in each.

The autoloader of the T-64 and T-80 have horizontal projectiles and vertical propellent stubs, and the propellent stubs are vulnerable to sparks and flame inside the turret with any penetrations.

Also one thing thats never mentioned is that in conventional warfare any penetration of a T series tank is a guaranteed catastrophic ammo explosion because half the rounds wont be in the autoloader, and just 22-20 rounds is far too low a number for battle.

Most conflicts since the first experience in Grozny Russian T-72s go into combat with 22 rounds, which is one autoloader full... which is plenty.

If fully loaded when those 22 are fired they need to find a quiet space to then hand load rounds from elsewhere in the vehicle into the Autoloader, which is a rather slow process... heading back to a rear area to rearm is just as easy so it makes no sense to carry the extra ammo.

Now that doesnt mean that blow off panels are the be all end all.

The problem for the Abrams isn't the blow off panels... even if they work the crew has to abandon the tank because the fire is going to go on for several minutes and the tank will be burned out and totally destroyed.

Having the ammo stored in the turret bustle makes it easy for enemy forces to target as an easy to aim at weakpoint.

It does not require a powerful weapon to penetrate...

APFSDS penetrations leads to enormous amounts of spalling anyway, which will likely kill most if not all the crew, even without a cookoff.

Most crew wear body armour including anti spall vests... unless the round goes through the crewman most of the time they should be OK if they can get out fast enough.

Even russians proved theyre effective.

Did they?

The T-72 was a superior design for sure. T-80 was supposed to be an upgrade of T-64 fixing the issues of T-64. And while it was a good tank, it was expensive and not much necessarily better. Also I heard a maintenance hog.

The T-64 and T-80 at the time were much better tanks on paper than the T-72 that was being used at the time respectively, but the T-64 was terribly unreliable and had lots of problems and teething issues. The T-80 generally solved most, but was expensive while being capable.

The T-72 evolved over time and got better and better with more armour and new systems and equipment that pretty much kept pace with tanks available anywhere.

Implying separate ammo compartments with blowout panels don't work, when there is 0 evidence from both russians and westerners that they don't.

Ammo storage in a turret bustle exposed to enemy fire is a bad idea... the Black Eagle (T-80) had a turret bustle autoloader with the underfloor autoloader removed to lower the turret and turret crew by about 20 cms and the Burlak had both a turret bustle and underturret autoloader to allow long rod penetrator rounds to be loaded into the turret bustle autoloader and straight rammed into the gun.

Both designs were rejected because carrying ammo exposed in the turret bustle was too vulnerable to enemy fire.

The Abrams has done rather well in some conflicts but once it became clear how vulnerable the turret bustle is it has suffered a lot more in combat than perhaps you imagine, because it is very hard to hide the rear of your turret... not to mention the back of the turret means the guns are pointed away from you which makes it an even more attractive thing to fire at.

Anyway I find it hilarious that Abrams fans always always mention that the blowout panels are the path of least resistance for the gas when it comes to explaining if and how they work, but ignore that in the case of a battle damage a gaping hole in the ammo doors would be that path of least resistance instead. Double-think much?

And an obvious problem with gas taking the line of least resistance.... how do hand grenades work... surely when it explodes all the gas would blow up through the fuse and out through the handle that is screwed on to the grenade... that would be much easier than shattering the sheet metal shell and throwing the metal fragments out sideways.

Except a propellent fire and a HE explosion are different things... when a tank is penetrated normally the propellent fire happens first which can blow the turret off any tank BTW. Eventually that propellent and other material in the tank will keep burning and getting hotter and hotter and the HE either in HE rounds or HEAT rounds will explode, but if the penetrating round hits one of those HE rounds then there is no time to get out... it is just boom and blow out panels and fire wall doors wont stop it...

The T-72 was a numbers tank that was simple and reliable and carried a big gun with decent armour.
It lacked super optics and night vision equipment, but it was made in enormous numbers and was clearly superior to the tanks it was replacing in service like old T-54/55 and T-62 models.

It was designed to continue with further upgrades to remain useful, which the T-72 upgrades for their tank competitions shows... modern optics and new ERA and it is still a very good vehicle.

The purpose of the T-90 was to replace the elite expensive tanks with the best new armour and ERA and the best new FCS and optics and equipment, so it costs more but it is also comparable to anything any other country might send against it.... it is the best the T-72 could get to.

The Armata is a design revision for best protection of the crew and best potential for upgrades like a 152mm gun etc.