Christianity Thread: Theology and Philosophy

Cowboy's daughter wrote:
versus population in USA, where Christians are beginning to feel like they are coming under attack by the government

jhelb wrote:
I suspect Christians are under attack in US because of the influx of immigrants from Africa & Asia who practice other religions like Islam, Hindouism, Buudhism etc. Unlike Christianity these eastern religions are not known to tolerate people of other faith.

Svyatoslavich wrote:No, the real problem is that the governments installed in most of the West (Latin America included) are part of the New World Order and extremely hostile to Christianity. The immigrants, Muslim mostly, are only the tool, and not the cause, and the destruction of Christianity includes many other fronts (promotion of homosexuality, pornography, drugs, abortion, divorce, ecology not as a pragmatic conservation of Earth but as an anti-humanistic ideology, etc). Even the current pope is now working for this, with the most recent papal exhortations "Amoris Laetitia" (justifying divorce) and "Laudato Si" (justifying ideologized ecology).

jhelb wrote:

Svyatoslavich wrote:No, the real problem is that the governments installed in most of the West (Latin America included) are part of the New World Order and extremely hostile to Christianity. The immigrants, Muslim mostly, are only the tool, and not the cause, and the destruction of Christianity includes many other fronts (promotion of homosexuality, pornography, drugs, abortion, divorce, ecology not as a pragmatic conservation of Earth but as an anti-humanistic ideology, etc). Even the current pope is now working for this, with the most recent papal exhortations "Amoris Laetitia" (justifying divorce) and "Laudato Si" (justifying ideologized ecology).

This is a nice post in Russia Beyond The Headlines. It states that in Brazil, US sponsored Evangelical groups are taking over Brazil & from just 5 per cent of the population in 1970, evangelicals now account for 22 per cent of Brazil’s 200 million population. They are on course to become a majority by the middle of the century.

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2016/07/04/brics-should-prepare-for-braxit-a-brazilian-exit_608637

This probably explains why Brazil wants to drop out of B.R.I.C.S

Since you are from Argentina, I feel you will probably know better & can shed some light.

Svyatoslavich wrote:In fact I am Brazilian, though I've been living in Buenos Aires for 11 years. Yes, every time I go to Brazil I see more Evangelical temples, the same is happening in Argentina and all over Latin America but at a slower pace. I think the Evangelicals are already the most numerous religious group in Brazil, most people are baptized as Catholic but seldom go to a church except for an eventual baptism, marriage or funeral of a close relative or friend, while those who are Evangelical usually attend masses, follow moral teachings, read the Bible, etc. Truth is that the biggest obstacle to legalizing abortion or homosexual marriage in Brazil comes from Evangelical groups within the Congress, while even the National Confederation of Bishops (Catholics) in Brazil has been completely silent for decades already. I don't know if this growth is sponsored by the US as an official policy, probably it is, as US-style Evangelism is the most commom form.

Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Evangelical Christianity keeps it's energy and drive in sharp contrast to Catholicism which has long since lost balls If I had to choose between Europe being overran by Muslimms/Jews or whatever Abrahamic BS or Evangelical Christianity, I would choose Evangelicals... you could ask me 1000 times and my answer would not change.

Friedrich Engels wrote:All religion, however, is nothing but the fantastic reflection in men’s minds of those external forces which control their daily life, a reflection in which the terrestrial forces assume the form of supernatural forces.

In the beginnings of history it was the forces of nature which were first so reflected, and which in the course of further evolution underwent the most manifold and varied personifications among the various peoples. This early process has been traced back by comparative mythology, at least in the case of the Indo-European peoples, to its origin in the Indian Vedas, and in its further evolution it has been demonstrated in detail among the Indians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germans and, so far as material is available, also among the Celts, Lithuanians and Slavs.

But it is not long before, side by side with the forces of nature, social forces begin to be active — forces which confront man as equally alien and at first equally inexplicable, dominating him with the same apparent natural necessity as the forces of nature themselves. The fantastic figures, which at first only reflected the mysterious forces of nature, at this point acquire social attributes, become representatives of the forces of history. At a still further stage of evolution, all the natural and social attributes of the numerous gods are transferred to one almighty god, who is but a reflection of the abstract man. Such was the origin of monotheism, which was historically the last product of the vulgarised philosophy of the later Greeks and found its incarnation in the exclusively national god of the Jews, Jehovah. In this convenient, handy and universally adaptable form, religion can continue to exist as the immediate, that is, the sentimental form of men's relation to the alien, natural and social, forces which dominate them, so long as men remain under the control of these forces. However, we have seen repeatedly that in existing bourgeois society men are dominated by the economic conditions created by themselves, by the means of production which they themselves have produced, as if by an alien force. The actual basis of the religious reflective activity therefore continues to exist, and with it the religious reflection itself.

And although bourgeois political economy has given a certain insight into the causal connection of this alien domination, this makes no essential difference. Bourgeois economics can neither prevent crises in general, nor protect the individual capitalists from losses, bad debts and bankruptcy, nor secure the individual workers against unemployment and destitution. It is still true that man proposes and God (that is, the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production) disposes. Mere knowledge, even if it went much further and deeper than that of bourgeois economic science, is not enough to bring social forces under the domination of society. What is above all necessary for this, is a social act. And when this act has been accomplished, when society, by taking possession of all means of production and using them on a planned basis, has freed itself and all its members from the bondage in which they are now held by these means of production which they themselves have produced but which confront them as an irresistible alien force, when therefore man no longer merely proposes, but also disposes — only then will the last alien force which is still reflected in religion vanish; and with it will also vanish the religious reflection itself, for the simple reason that then there will be nothing left to reflect.

Herr Dühring, however, cannot wait until religion dies this, its natural, death. He proceeds in more deep-rooted fashion. He out-Bismarcks Bismarck; he decrees sharper May laws [127] not merely against Catholicism, but against all religion whatsoever; he incites his gendarmes of the future against religion, and thereby helps it to martyrdom and a prolonged lease of life.

higurashihougi wrote:

Friedrich Engels wrote:All religion, however, is nothing but the fantastic reflection in men’s minds of those external forces which control their daily life, a reflection in which the terrestrial forces assume the form of supernatural forces.

In the beginnings of history it was the forces of nature which were first so reflected, and which in the course of further evolution underwent the most manifold and varied personifications among the various peoples. This early process has been traced back by comparative mythology, at least in the case of the Indo-European peoples, to its origin in the Indian Vedas, and in its further evolution it has been demonstrated in detail among the Indians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germans and, so far as material is available, also among the Celts, Lithuanians and Slavs.

But it is not long before, side by side with the forces of nature, social forces begin to be active — forces which confront man as equally alien and at first equally inexplicable, dominating him with the same apparent natural necessity as the forces of nature themselves. The fantastic figures, which at first only reflected the mysterious forces of nature, at this point acquire social attributes, become representatives of the forces of history. At a still further stage of evolution, all the natural and social attributes of the numerous gods are transferred to one almighty god, who is but a reflection of the abstract man. Such was the origin of monotheism, which was historically the last product of the vulgarised philosophy of the later Greeks and found its incarnation in the exclusively national god of the Jews, Jehovah. In this convenient, handy and universally adaptable form, religion can continue to exist as the immediate, that is, the sentimental form of men's relation to the alien, natural and social, forces which dominate them, so long as men remain under the control of these forces. However, we have seen repeatedly that in existing bourgeois society men are dominated by the economic conditions created by themselves, by the means of production which they themselves have produced, as if by an alien force. The actual basis of the religious reflective activity therefore continues to exist, and with it the religious reflection itself.

And although bourgeois political economy has given a certain insight into the causal connection of this alien domination, this makes no essential difference. Bourgeois economics can neither prevent crises in general, nor protect the individual capitalists from losses, bad debts and bankruptcy, nor secure the individual workers against unemployment and destitution. It is still true that man proposes and God (that is, the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production) disposes. Mere knowledge, even if it went much further and deeper than that of bourgeois economic science, is not enough to bring social forces under the domination of society. What is above all necessary for this, is a social act. And when this act has been accomplished, when society, by taking possession of all means of production and using them on a planned basis, has freed itself and all its members from the bondage in which they are now held by these means of production which they themselves have produced but which confront them as an irresistible alien force, when therefore man no longer merely proposes, but also disposes — only then will the last alien force which is still reflected in religion vanish; and with it will also vanish the religious reflection itself, for the simple reason that then there will be nothing left to reflect.

Herr Dühring, however, cannot wait until religion dies this, its natural, death. He proceeds in more deep-rooted fashion. He out-Bismarcks Bismarck; he decrees sharper May laws [127] not merely against Catholicism, but against all religion whatsoever; he incites his gendarmes of the future against religion, and thereby helps it to martyrdom and a prolonged lease of life.

Cowboy's daughter wrote:I was never interested in reading Engels. For no reason, really. Just didn't interest me. I probably wasn't smart enough to read him! So he thought that the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production was "God", and if "the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production" was eliminated, then "religion" and God would cease to exist.

higurashihougi wrote:

Cowboy's daughter wrote:I was never interested in reading Engels. For no reason, really. Just didn't interest me. I probably wasn't smart enough to read him! So he thought that the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production was "God", and if "the alien domination of the capitalist mode of production" was eliminated, then "religion" and God would cease to exist.

What Engels meant is that, human turn to the belief in supernatural "gods" or "deities", because there are so many unexpected events, tragedies, unfortunates, bad lucks, mysterious issues,... both in the nature world and in the society, that humanity is still unable to solve using their current knowledge of science.

Just like a man cannot use Newton's three basic laws to escape from his status of extreme poverty. Or when his beloved relatives passed away, Einstein's relative theories cannot mitigate his pain.

People believe in Gods not because they are stupid. Religious people are decent human and many of them are very talented and very good people. It is the social problem, the social issues, and the injustice, inequalities in the current society that take a toll in human soul and make them turn into religion to soothe their pain and have a sense of hope. Religion is the analgesia of the masses.

In that paragraph actually Engels was criticizing the discriminatory acts against religious people. Engels said that persecution and discrimination against religious people is wrong and will not solve anything. Fixing the social issues and fighting the social injustices to restore the human belief in the real world is the only solution.

Cowboy's daughter wrote:Oh that's a fantastic post! & I really agree with this: "that humanity is still unable to solve using their current knowledge of science."

higurashihougi wrote:

Cowboy's daughter wrote:Oh that's a fantastic post! & I really agree with this: "that humanity is still unable to solve using their current knowledge of science."

Allow me to elaborate more on that issue, on my own point of view. You are free to disagree with my intepretation, and I sincerely appreciate your kindness to listen to it first.

First, you have to firmly memorize that, science here including both natural science, and social-economic science.

And the unsolved issues of humanity include both natural issues, and socio-economic issues. That is why I also mention personal tragedies, unpredictable crisies, economic depression, and so on.

The are gods and deities represent the (used to be) uncontrollable natural events of pandemics, draught, famine, flood, storms, fire... And for the uncontrollable social-economical events, people also explained these as "God's will" or "will of Fate".

If you read carefully the writing of Engels I quoted above, you can see that he pointed out these point quite clearly.

Second, science and scientific activities have class nature. Science is NOT neutral. It results is directed and designed to serve the class interest of the ruling class, and to promote the social hierarchy and economic models that suit the benefit of the ruling class. In the modern area, science and inventions is made to serve the capitalist class, to enhance the efficiency and intensity of the extraction of surplus value for the capitalist class, and to preserve the capitalist economy - together with all of its inherent flaws and illnesses.

You can see the class nature of science very clearly in the applied sciences and social-economy sciences as they directly serve the application needs of the capitalist enterprises and express the economic viewpoint of the bourgeioise.

Now you see why Engels mentioned about the bourgeioise science and the capitalist mode of production in the paragraph I quote ? The bourgeioise science is meant to preserve the capitalist mode of production together with all of its inherent flaws, hence that "science" will never solve the capitalist issues of economic crises, the anarchy and unpredictable traits of production and commercial, and the unemployment and destitution of the working class. When all of the uncontrollable, unsolved issues persists, people will continue to have a need of spiritual haven to soothe their mind and relieve their pain.

The only way to solve all of these social problems is a social revolution which topple the capitalist domination, and together with that a new form of science, which belong to the working class and serve the interest of the working class, will have to be born.

Again, I understand that you may disagree with my intepretation and you are free to do so.

Cowboy's daughter wrote:I just wanted to say, Vann7. that I read all of your thread, and thought it a very good post.

I also think persons should think for themselves and decide, but I know you know, I do think the Bible was inspired by God.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

Just my belief...

Epistle to the Hebrews
Book
The Epistle to the Hebrews, or Letter to the Hebrews, or in the Greek manuscripts, simply To the Hebrews is one of the books of the New Testament. The text does not mention the name of its author, but was traditionally attributed to Paul the Apostle.  

Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

John 2:19
…18On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?” 19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” 20“This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”…

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Jesus : Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16If[f] anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”

17When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, [g]thus purifying all foods?” 20And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

Matthew 17:19

Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19Afterward the disciples came to Jesus privately and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” 20“Because you have so little faith,” He answered. “For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”…