AK-12 Rifle Discussion

I've been saying this for about 6 months that the likeliness that both rifles will be accepted in to service are great...I'm starting to look like a profit now lol! People who like to whine that the AEK may have not 'won' the competition, don't seem to realize that a great rifle will still find it's way in to service.

The purpose of the tests was to see if they measured up... both makers know what they are doing so there was every likelyhood both would pass even if minor changes might be needed.

Now, a question. What would spec ops choose ? Allegedly more accurate AEK ? Or better-understood AK12

Well that is the problem... they would be in the best position to get the best from an accurate rifle, so plus one for the AEK assuming it is the more accurate of the two, but having a modular multi calibre rifle designed with special forces in mind is a plus for the AK12SN. AFAIK the AK12SN is a family of weapons from SMG to LMG including assault rifle, carbine, and of course DMR type weapon and likely combat shotgun and perhaps even light grenade launcher.

So it is one all for special forces, but ease of manufacture and use also goes to the Ak12, and even if slightly more complicated the fact that you can have a base rifle and barrels for different versions and calibres means although more expensive for a single rifle, it will be cheaper to have a range of weapon components than to have a range of different weapons with different optics.

that robot scope allowing different bullet types and different calibres could be zeroed in for the different calibres and barrel lengths for easy transition in the field...

[quote]Because it's still in the running. The AEK is a one trick pony, if it wasn't a better performer than the basic AK-12 assault rifle variant, it would have been eliminated.[/quote[]

This isn't a test to find the best weapon... it is a test to ensure each weapon is up to scratch to be used in the Russian military... it is not a one wins all thing.

The VDV and naval infantry have already selected the ADS as a rifle for underwater use to replace the APS... will they consider the AEK and AK12 or just adopt the ADS in full scale deployment...

And for some reason it vanished on the newer variants.

Perhaps because it was deemed not necessary?

Perhaps they will demand new scopes are in line with iron sights so no raised cheek position will be needed?

This isn't a target shooting rifle, it's a service rifle. Some man or women has to carry it around all day. Handling and weight are important considerations.

Very true and some users might prefer a bit of weight further forward...

Excellent news. It'll be interesting to see who adopts each rifle.

Both systems working with Ratnik is a good thing... previous information on RATNIK showed the AK-74M and the AN-94 and the AK-107. Hopefully this result will eliminate these three rifles from the running/distraction, and both companies can focus on two service weapon families.

Ratnik is an army programme... and just because new states that AK12 has passed it does not mean the other rifles didn't pass too.

I suspect the other rifles will be considered by the other branches and special forces units within all sorts of para military forces within Russia... ie MVD, FSB, border patrol, police, etc

First of all let me say that most protective vests are indeed designed to stop shrapnel. Most can also therefore stop a pistol calibre bullet but it is fairly rare for soldiers to get shot on a modern battlefield by hand guns... you are more likely to be on the receiving end of pistol bullets from police or special forces with SMGs.

the biggest killer in war is shrapnel from explosives and that remains true today.

Protective vests are generally called flak jackets for that reason and that is their primary use.

The vast majority of the people who could have been hit and injured but weren't was because their flak vest stopped the dangerous item, so wearing even just a low level protection jacket can massively reduce casualties... just as a helmet can also save a lot of lives even though none will stop a rifle calibre bullet.

Then what is the effectiveness of assault rifles against bulletproofs vest, or body armor ? I heard that AK-47, AK-M, M-16, AK-74 are completly innefective against Bulletproof vest. Is it true ?

A vest will only protect what it covers... it wont stop a bullet to the thigh or hip or to the face. It will also only offer a certain level of protection... even the heaviest armour will not necessarily save you.

Most so called bullet proof vests have hard plate inserts for the chest area, but if you are pointing a rifle at the target they could easily hit you in your chest cavity by aiming for the area under your arm which is not protected.

there are armour piercing ammo rounds that will penetrate all sorts of barriers and there are a range of vests from stuff that will stop bomb fragments right up to stopping 338 Lapua Magnum rounds from 100m. the former is more common because it is lighter and cheaper... no point in wearing super heavy armour if it means you are a much slower target that is easier to hit.

I talked about armor level type IV, those equiped Israelis infantery.
Those against bullets at a velocity of 878 m/s ± 9.1 m/s.

First of all such ratings are generally only for the area of the internal hard chest plate, and for a very specific projectile mass... I very much doubt they will stop a 1,100 grain 12.7mm round at that speed.

And even if they did the impact force would likely kill the soldier anyway... remember a 50kg IED could kill Abrams tanks even though it didn't penetrate the armour.

Do you think a machine gun is enough against this kind of body armor ? Do you think it is the end assault riffle ?
If a machine gun is enough what would be the caliber minumum ? 12.7 mm ? 14.5 mm ? 16.5 mm ? And what would be the configuration of the ground infantery if the assault riffle is useless ?

Such body armour is expensive and not widely deployed by most countries.

Ironically despite these being called flak jackets exploding ammo will still be effective against exposed areas... arms, legs, head.

I remember reading that experience in Afghanistan has shown a lot more amputee casualties because soldiers tended to have a better chance of survival while their protective vests tended to reduce injuries from small fragments.

When the enemy is known to be equipped with heavy body armour you issue Armour Piercing ammo and try to use HE rockets and HE grenades more often... and aim for the legs and head.

In fact I mean for example this video

You are not paying attention.

Even a top level bullet proof vest is not bullet proof all over. It will have what are called trauma plates over the chest that are made of ceramic or metal that actually stop rifle bullets... a bullet in the gut will penetrate even the heaviest body armour.

This video shows a civilian firing an AK at bullet proof glass... that glass is not a bullet proof vest... if it was it would weigh 200kgs and would not be wearable.

Civilians in the US are not allowed to have armour piercing ammo so that rifle likely either had plain ball ammo or perhaps even soft nose hunting ammo.

In next future the bulletproof vest will protect all the body. It is only a matter of time.

It is a cycle... when better body armour is introduced better armour piercing ammo will be introduced.

they are not going to bother making ammo that will penetrate a 6 metre steel plate now when body armour is more comparable to 6mm armour plate.

Does each soldier have minigun at least 12.7 mm caliber ?
This is the question.

The HEAT version of the 30mm auto grenade launcher has an armour defeat capability of 50mm or so... I doubt any body armour will stop this any time soon.

My english is not excellent. Does the Browing effective against the Humvee ?

The bullets went straight through the door... the people inside would have been killed if the enemy had fired 50 cal or 12.7mm cal MG at it.

Note this was an old door so in actual fact it was not armoured. The early Humvees were not armoured though the people who used them thought they were. the Humvee was a big slow jeep.

When they found it was not armoured they added armour which made it even slower. but they could not armour it to a level where it would stop 50 cal rounds.

Here is a video showing the efficiency of bulletproof.

Just look at the image of the video in the video still... it clearly says 7.62 x 54mm Steel Core.

Russian 7.62 x 54mm standard ball round is a steel core round... this is not special armour piercing ammo... this is ball ammo commonly used in PKM and SVD weapons.

As my english is not perfect, could you summurize me what he said. I think it exists nowdays russian amno 7.62 mm that are able to penetrate bulletsproofs vests, including those possesses by special forces. Did I understand correctly ? If yes, what are those amno ? Are they availlable in the new AK-12 ?

Basically he is talking about Russian ball ammo that has a steel core. He is talking about how it penetrates well, but it is not armour piercing ammo. the steel cores are not hardened steel and they are not pointed as they would be if they were for penetrating armour.

I have a few armour piercing incendiary 7.62 x 39mm rounds and the steel cores stick out the nose of the jacket and they are pointed. the tips are painted purple and black to indicate they are armour piercing incendiary rounds.

But, If it exists amnutions able to perfore body armors, including the most sophisticated bulletproofs -swats' body armors- vests, it would be interresting to know what are they ? In fact my straight-forward question could the new AK-12 perfore all bulletproofs ?

The Russians developed a few rounds specifically to defeat personal body armour... the obvious is the 12.7 x 108mm heavy rifles or anti material rifles. Also they have revealed the 9 x 39mm rounds and 7.62 x 54mm rounds and of course the new 12.7 x 55mm rounds intended to defeat protected personnel.

I rather suspect they will have armour piercing ammo in 5.45 x 39mm for use against an enemy with protection but as I keep saying even the heaviest vest will only protect the upper chest area from rifle calibre bullets... even vests that will stop 338 Lapua Magnum rounds from 100m will not stop 5.45mm to the gut. A shot to the upper thigh that hits the femoral arterie will kill you in minute of you don't stop the blood loss.

I have another request to admin, or moderator, in fact I initiate this topic in the goal of a complements to AK-12's topic, if you are agree, could you move it this subject, in the AK-12's topic. Because the purpose of this topic is to discuss about the opportunity of AK-12 against the bulletsproofs vests.

OK.

One of the features of the AK12 is accuracy... and defeating body armour obviously being able to hit the part of the target least protected by armour maximises your potential for success.

I think all machine guns in the world including Browning, DSHK, all gatling guns including miniguns-those -at least >= 12.7 mm, as Yak-B 12.7 mm- defeat all bulletproofs vests in the world. Is it correct ?

Gatling guns just have a very high rate of fire, they are not otherwise more powerful than other types of gun.

A large calibre machine gun should defeat pretty much any vest... even if it doesn't penetrate it it will shatter bones and crush organs to the point where survival is unlikely.

Gatling guns were tested in 5.56mm and were deemed to be not worth the effort in the smaller calibres.

The smallest common calibre is the 7.62 x 54mm four barrel gun fitted to the Ka-29 naval assault helo.

In fact, Russia is trying to repeat the success of the legend AK-47. However, I doubt if they could. Kalashnikow was absolutly exceptionnal. Russia could to emulate this glorious success, but Iam circumspect.

Russia doesn't need some uber legendary rifle... the AK-74 is a good rifle and the AK12 is better because it takes all the AK-74s problems... real and perceived, and fixes them.

the AK12 will be an excellent service rifle that is easy to use.

If russians could increase the spead, they avoid to have a greater calibers, for example to overpass 1.000 m/s regarding muzle velocity would be a great challenge. Obviously, with 900 m/s is enough to defeat now, all bulletproofs vests in the world, but the challenge is to defeat armored vehicle with 7.62 mm. I think Russia can afford it.

The flechette is the ideal penetrator and while not the most accurate small arms round the ACR is a good indicator. It was a rifle by Steyr that competed and lost the competition to replace the M16 in US service. the point was that it was designed to fire flechette rounds only. It had no elevation capability on its iron sights because the projectile was so low drag and left the muzzle at such high velocity that you didn't need to change your point of aim out to 800m.

the main problem was that accuracy was not as good as a real bullet, recoil was very low because the projectile was very light, but the effect on target was not very impressive... it made a small hole and wasn't very lethal.

When the enemy is wearing body armour however it would penetrate very well and likely be bent on impact which greatly increases its wounding effectiveness.

On an unarmoured target it could pass through a beating human heart without stopping the heart...