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Like I said, russian business practices. Some blackmailing trough the media and... Ta-da! Deal is done. 
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Mi-28N Havoc: News
Hole- Posts : 10837
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Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
AMCXXL- Posts : 987
Points : 987
Join date : 2017-08-08
dino00 wrote:The Ministry of Defense agreed on the serial deliveries of the Mi-28NM to the troops
"We have reached a full understanding on the price" Krivoruchko told reporters.
https://ria.ru/20190307/1551629504.html
Of course Mr.Krivoruchko , the other option is a siberian Gulag
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5815
Points : 5771
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
The GULAG was closed down 59 y. ago. Only a few camps r still there.
The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960 but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36 until 1987 when it was closed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#After_World_War_II
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2344433/Surviving-Siberias-toughest-prisons-The-bleak-conditions-faced-Russias-worst-offenders--criminal-got-years-inside.html
The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960 but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36 until 1987 when it was closed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#After_World_War_II
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2344433/Surviving-Siberias-toughest-prisons-The-bleak-conditions-faced-Russias-worst-offenders--criminal-got-years-inside.html
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6025
Points : 6045
Join date : 2015-05-17
Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada
Tsavo Lion wrote:The GULAG was closed down 59 y. ago. Only a few camps r still there.
not in US tho
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States#Prison_labor_legislation
George1- Posts : 18342
Points : 18839
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece
As reported by the RIA Novosti news agency on March 7, 2019, with reference to the press service of Russian Helicopters, the Rostvertol enterprise (part of Russian Helicopters) completed the acceptance and transfer procedure to representatives of the Ministry of Defense of seven new helicopters. Two transport combat Mi-35Ms, two combat training Mi-28UB and three Mi-28N "Night Hunter" were transferred.
Earlier this year, four Mi-35M helicopters and two combat training Mi-28UBs were handed over to the defense department. Thus, from the beginning of the year, 13 new Rostvertol helicopters were handed over to the Russian Federation Air Force.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3561949.html
Earlier this year, four Mi-35M helicopters and two combat training Mi-28UBs were handed over to the defense department. Thus, from the beginning of the year, 13 new Rostvertol helicopters were handed over to the Russian Federation Air Force.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3561949.html
GarryB- Posts : 39168
Points : 39666
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Production of that size helo (Mi-24,Mi-28, Ka-52, Mi-17 Ka-35/32) should be able to pick up now that Klimov has the VK-2500 in production...
Hole- Posts : 10837
Points : 10815
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
Pick up?
Some 400 Mi-28N, Mi-35M and Ka-52, 600+ Mi-8 of all versions, 100+ Ka-226 and Ansats plus 20 - 30 Mi-26 have been build for the home market and export in the last 10 - 12 years. Looks quite decent to me. Maybe the export could grow a little bit but at home there are a lot of "older" Mi-8 versions that have ten or even twenty years of service life left.
Some 400 Mi-28N, Mi-35M and Ka-52, 600+ Mi-8 of all versions, 100+ Ka-226 and Ansats plus 20 - 30 Mi-26 have been build for the home market and export in the last 10 - 12 years. Looks quite decent to me. Maybe the export could grow a little bit but at home there are a lot of "older" Mi-8 versions that have ten or even twenty years of service life left.
dino00- Posts : 1677
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Join date : 2012-10-12
Age : 36
Location : portugal
Source: Mi-28NM will receive a new guided missile "product 305" with a range of more than 25 km
It is noted that the helicopter can carry up to eight such missiles
“For the Mi-28NM, a new missile is being created, the“ product 305 ”, designed for round-the-clock destruction of armored vehicles and reinforced concrete fortifications. The range of missile use is more than 25 km,” the agency’s source said. The source added that one helicopter can carry up to eight such missiles (four on each pylon).
According to the interlocutor, the rocket will fly to the target according to the onboard inertial navigation system, information about the location of the target will be entered into the memory of the system at the time of launch from a helicopter. The Mi-28NM, in turn, will receive the coordinates of the target from its own means of detection or from a single troop control system.
In the final leg of the flight, the source explained, "the new rocket will include a homing head to detect the target in a given area and defeat it." The helicopter will be able to receive the video signal from the rocket via a protected information and command radio line, the source added.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6236432
If its being created i think its not hermes-A
It is noted that the helicopter can carry up to eight such missiles
“For the Mi-28NM, a new missile is being created, the“ product 305 ”, designed for round-the-clock destruction of armored vehicles and reinforced concrete fortifications. The range of missile use is more than 25 km,” the agency’s source said. The source added that one helicopter can carry up to eight such missiles (four on each pylon).
According to the interlocutor, the rocket will fly to the target according to the onboard inertial navigation system, information about the location of the target will be entered into the memory of the system at the time of launch from a helicopter. The Mi-28NM, in turn, will receive the coordinates of the target from its own means of detection or from a single troop control system.
In the final leg of the flight, the source explained, "the new rocket will include a homing head to detect the target in a given area and defeat it." The helicopter will be able to receive the video signal from the rocket via a protected information and command radio line, the source added.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6236432
If its being created i think its not hermes-A
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6025
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Join date : 2015-05-17
Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada
dino00 wrote:Source: Mi-28NM will receive a new guided missile "product 305" with a range of more than 25 km
It is noted that the helicopter can carry up to eight such missiles
“For the Mi-28NM, a new missile is being created, the“ product 305 ”, designed for round-the-clock destruction of armored vehicles and reinforced concrete fortifications. The range of missile use is more than 25 km,” the agency’s source said. The source added that one helicopter can carry up to eight such missiles (four on each pylon).
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6236432
If its being created i think its not hermes-A
Hermes-A? it looks preciously like description above. However AFAIK izd 305 is used also for R-73 ...
http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/multi-service-weapon-systems/germes-a
GarryB- Posts : 39168
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I would say it was Hermes... the command guided flight to the target is pretty straight forward.... the tricky bit will be when it gets to the target vicinity and it starts looking with what ever sensor or sensors it is fitted for terminal guidance to hit the target...
They might have terminal guidance options in different price ranges for different targets... the cheapest could be an optical system that can determine objects and patterns and shapes and structures... perhaps including thermal frequencies so it can be day night and all weather capable, and it could use an external laser to mark the target to make it all rather simple but needing an external targeting source like a UAV or ground troops or whatever... the addition of GLONASS could make it better able to hit fixed targets like a small building or bridge without adding too much cost.
More expensive it might be MMW radar guided, though a cheaper option there could be to make it SARH, so the missile just has a simple seeker... the helicopter would illuminate the target with a thin pencil beam of radar energy and the missiles seeker detects the reflecting energy and homes in on it to impact.
More expensive than that and more capable it could have an active homing MMW radar in the missile nose and it can find and identify targets itself based on the shape of the radar image reflection it gets when it scans the target area.
Ideally you could have combinations of these designs so for tricky targets you spend a bit more on a more capable guidance system to ensure you get a hit, but ideally putting the expensive high tech radar and EOs in the helicopter and just making the missile a simple command guided weapon would mean the missiles are cheap to use and easy to mass produce and you can use them for all sorts of targets without worrying how many replacements you will be getting for the next operation.
Javelin sounds like a sophisticated and capable missile system, but using a half million dollar missile on a Taleban soldier sitting in a tree... I am sure if you went over and said I will give you $200,000 US dollars to hand over your rifle and promise not to fight against us in the future he would be more than happy with that arrangement... and you just saved the US taxpayer $300,000.
If you can't talk him into this then a $5,000 Metis missile would be just as effective and getting new models for replacement wont be a problem.... and it can have a nice flash thermal sight so you can use it day or night and in bad weather too... in fact you can get HE rounds for it so it would be more effective against non armoured targets in the latest model out to 3km and guess what... without the exotic metal HEAT liner the HE rounds would be much much cheaper... probably only $1,000 a shot...
BTW GD, that image on that linked page is funny... if you click on it the zoomed in image shows a 80mm 20 shot standard helicopter rocket pod on the inner pylons and four missiles on the outer pylons but when you click off the main pic is doubled so it looks like 8 missiles per pylon but also two rocket pods for each inner pylon... weird...
They might have terminal guidance options in different price ranges for different targets... the cheapest could be an optical system that can determine objects and patterns and shapes and structures... perhaps including thermal frequencies so it can be day night and all weather capable, and it could use an external laser to mark the target to make it all rather simple but needing an external targeting source like a UAV or ground troops or whatever... the addition of GLONASS could make it better able to hit fixed targets like a small building or bridge without adding too much cost.
More expensive it might be MMW radar guided, though a cheaper option there could be to make it SARH, so the missile just has a simple seeker... the helicopter would illuminate the target with a thin pencil beam of radar energy and the missiles seeker detects the reflecting energy and homes in on it to impact.
More expensive than that and more capable it could have an active homing MMW radar in the missile nose and it can find and identify targets itself based on the shape of the radar image reflection it gets when it scans the target area.
Ideally you could have combinations of these designs so for tricky targets you spend a bit more on a more capable guidance system to ensure you get a hit, but ideally putting the expensive high tech radar and EOs in the helicopter and just making the missile a simple command guided weapon would mean the missiles are cheap to use and easy to mass produce and you can use them for all sorts of targets without worrying how many replacements you will be getting for the next operation.
Javelin sounds like a sophisticated and capable missile system, but using a half million dollar missile on a Taleban soldier sitting in a tree... I am sure if you went over and said I will give you $200,000 US dollars to hand over your rifle and promise not to fight against us in the future he would be more than happy with that arrangement... and you just saved the US taxpayer $300,000.
If you can't talk him into this then a $5,000 Metis missile would be just as effective and getting new models for replacement wont be a problem.... and it can have a nice flash thermal sight so you can use it day or night and in bad weather too... in fact you can get HE rounds for it so it would be more effective against non armoured targets in the latest model out to 3km and guess what... without the exotic metal HEAT liner the HE rounds would be much much cheaper... probably only $1,000 a shot...
BTW GD, that image on that linked page is funny... if you click on it the zoomed in image shows a 80mm 20 shot standard helicopter rocket pod on the inner pylons and four missiles on the outer pylons but when you click off the main pic is doubled so it looks like 8 missiles per pylon but also two rocket pods for each inner pylon... weird...
dino00- Posts : 1677
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Join date : 2012-10-12
Age : 36
Location : portugal
The most modern Russian combat helicopter Mi-28NM will be tested in the Syrian desert
https://iz.ru/855084/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko/naglotatsia-pyli-nochnoi-superokhotnik-obkataiut-zharoi-i-peskom
https://iz.ru/855084/roman-kretcul-aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko/naglotatsia-pyli-nochnoi-superokhotnik-obkataiut-zharoi-i-peskom
Hole- Posts : 10837
Points : 10815
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
Surprise, surprise. 
Hole- Posts : 10837
Points : 10815
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
Syria.
With Video:
https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-advanced-flying-tank-hunter-spotted-in-syria.html
GarryB- Posts : 39168
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
From the link in dinos post 283 it says this:
So either the helicopter will detect the target with its own sensors or will receive target coordinates from other platforms (ie UAV, ground forces, other aircraft, satellite, etc etc...).
It can then fire a missile at the target location, with the missile using command guidance to get it to the location of the target.
The seeker in the missile will scan for the actual target and attack it.
This is interesting the helicopter will get video from the rocket via digital datalink and the command radio suggests in the terminal phase the helicopter crew can reselect a target from those visible if they are not happy with the target the missile selects... ie if the target area has three Abrams tanks and an air defence vehicle of some sort the crew might want to take out the air defence vehicle first.
Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km away they might just take out the Abrams tanks and pass the location data for the linebacker to get engaged with a shorter ranged weapon like a Vikhr from 10-15km or so... which is still safely outside its effective range.
According to the source, the rocket will fly to the target according to the onboard inertial navigation system, location information of target will be made in the memory of the system at the time of launch from a helicopter. Mi-28NM, in turn, will receive target coordinates from their means of detection or of a unified system of command and control.
In the terminal phase of flight, the source explained, "the new missile will enable the seeker to detect targets in a given area and defeat." The helicopter will be able to get the video from the rocket via a secure information and command radio, the source added.
So either the helicopter will detect the target with its own sensors or will receive target coordinates from other platforms (ie UAV, ground forces, other aircraft, satellite, etc etc...).
It can then fire a missile at the target location, with the missile using command guidance to get it to the location of the target.
The seeker in the missile will scan for the actual target and attack it.
This is interesting the helicopter will get video from the rocket via digital datalink and the command radio suggests in the terminal phase the helicopter crew can reselect a target from those visible if they are not happy with the target the missile selects... ie if the target area has three Abrams tanks and an air defence vehicle of some sort the crew might want to take out the air defence vehicle first.
Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km away they might just take out the Abrams tanks and pass the location data for the linebacker to get engaged with a shorter ranged weapon like a Vikhr from 10-15km or so... which is still safely outside its effective range.
Isos- Posts : 11326
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Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km
Only in flat desert you can use weapons at max range. In europe you can hide behind trees, rocks, houses ... effective range can be few hundreds meters againsr well trained ground crews.
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous. Manpads at close range have better Pk and much harder to detect if they are launch under the helicopter. Reaction time is then reduced. Against shilkas or tunguska like system they are dead meat.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13312
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Isos wrote:...........
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous...
Not dangerous, 100% suicidal
Even fighter jets couldn't fly below double-digit number of kilometers, two that tried got blown to shit
Also, there are loads of rumors that Apaches forward stationed Macedonia suffered major ''accidents'' on the ground but since we are now ''cool'' with Uncle Sam everyone is politely keeping things quiet
Long story short: keep helicopters away from wooded areas
Isos- Posts : 11326
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PapaDragon wrote:Isos wrote:...........
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous...
Not dangerous, 100% suicidal
Even fighter jets couldn't fly below double-digit number of kilometers, two that tried got blown to shit
Also, there are loads of rumors that Apaches forward stationed Macedonia suffered major ''accidents'' on the ground but since we are now ''cool'' with Uncle Sam everyone is politely keeping things quiet
Long story short: keep helicopters away from wooded areas
Or you can also quotes numbers from vietnam war. They lost like as much helicopter as there are right now in europe, russia included.
Guest- Guest
PapaDragon wrote:Isos wrote:...........
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous...
Not dangerous, 100% suicidal
Even fighter jets couldn't fly below double-digit number of kilometers, two that tried got blown to shit
Also, there are loads of rumors that Apaches forward stationed Macedonia suffered major ''accidents'' on the ground but since we are now ''cool'' with Uncle Sam everyone is politely keeping things quiet
Long story short: keep helicopters away from wooded areas
Two crashed in total. One had flight computer issue that was later patched on all AHs in service. Second had hydraulics failure. All other stories about us bombing whatever, destroying whatever are just fishing stories. Same as we have about 25.000 "Košare veterans" online.
Hole- Posts : 10837
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Isos wrote:Of course if the air defence vehicle is a Linebacker with a gatling gun and Stinger MANPADs and is 23km
Only in flat desert you can use weapons at max range. In europe you can hide behind trees, rocks, houses ... effective range can be few hundreds meters againsr well trained ground crews.
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous. Manpads at close range have better Pk and much harder to detect if they are launch under the helicopter. Reaction time is then reduced. Against shilkas or tunguska like system they are dead meat.
You´re right if the weapon is launched from the ground, but flying in 1.000 or 2.000m you can look and shoot quite far. And this missiles won´t be used against some soldier hiding behind something, they will be used against vehicles. The radar of the Mi-28NM can see tanks from 20km, even if they are hinding inside woods.
Isos- Posts : 11326
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You´re right if the weapon is launched from the ground, but flying in 1.000 or 2.000m you can look and shoot quite far. And this missiles won´t be used against some soldier hiding behind something, they will be used against vehicles. The radar of the Mi-28NM can see tanks from 20km, even if they are hinding inside woods.
You should not trust everything said by the weapon makers.
There is no way a radar can see a tank in a dense forest. Behind one or two trees maybe.
At 1000-2000m they are seen by pantsirs ... and the radar will be detected by ground EW.
dino00- Posts : 1677
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Location : portugal
Source: the latest Russian aircraft rocket "product 305" is being tested in Syria
Tests are held in combat conditions, the source said.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6250803
Can only be hermes
Tests are held in combat conditions, the source said.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6250803
Can only be hermes
George1- Posts : 18342
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And the video
Hole- Posts : 10837
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There a man-portable radars that can see people behind bushes or trees.
And the west doesn´t have Pantsirs. Only Stingers. Even with Ataka a heli is out of reach of this thing.
And the west doesn´t have Pantsirs. Only Stingers. Even with Ataka a heli is out of reach of this thing.
Isos- Posts : 11326
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Hole wrote:There a man-portable radars that can see people behind bushes or trees.
And the west doesn´t have Pantsirs. Only Stingers. Even with Ataka a heli is out of reach of this thing.
France has crotale. Others have amraam launched from ground.
Europe is full of rocks and mountains and never flat. Plenty of place where to hide. Even in yemen tanks are pretty well hiden and houtis get very close far less than max engagement range of their weapons.
GarryB- Posts : 39168
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Only in flat desert you can use weapons at max range. In europe you can hide behind trees, rocks, houses ... effective range can be few hundreds meters againsr well trained ground crews.
It works both ways... a helo can hide behind trees or low hills or large buildings too, while an air defence vehicle responsible for protecting a group of armoured vehicles it is operating with needs a good field of view and a good field of fire... you can tuck it behind a hill so the helo wont see it till it is right on top of it... but a UAV flying at 12,000m altitude will see it just fine and lase the target so local artillery can deal with the problem easily enough...
The point is that even on a clear day that Linebacker is not going to see a Havoc 22kms away and will have no idea it is there... it has Stinger missiles and a gatling gun... the new DIRCMs on the HAVOC means it actually only has a gatling gun for air defence...
It is very weak... with the gatling gun would be a useful convoy escort vehicle with anti ambush capability, but otherwise... nah...
In kosovo Apaches were not used as the terrain was making their use very dangerous. Manpads at close range have better Pk and much harder to detect if they are launch under the helicopter. Reaction time is then reduced. Against shilkas or tunguska like system they are dead meat.
Yeah, well that is the problem when you try to use Apaches in occupied foreign territory... In Iraq when used to support ground operations they went OK, partly from a lack of decent MANPADS in the hands of the enemy, but also careful and sensible use against targets that are properly softened up first.
When misused they are not good. ie farmers with 303s...
At 1000-2000m they are seen by pantsirs ... and the radar will be detected by ground EW.
MMW radar is very short range and direction finding is difficult... there are no ARMs that are effective against MMW radars AFAIK...
Otherwise the primary self defence weapon on a Hind or Havoc or Hokum would be an R-60 with an ARM seeker on it...
Europe is full of rocks and mountains and never flat. Plenty of place where to hide
And plenty of places for helos to hide too... just altitude would be enough most of the time... its sensors that can detect targets at more than 25 kms suggests the ability to detect targets close as well... DIRCMS means optical and IR guided weapons wont be effective, and having Hermes on board are you going to sit in an armoured vehicle and scan the skies looking for helos knowing it can detect that radar from further away than you can detect him and his Hermes missiles are rather fast and terminally guided so he can launch and then descend out of sight and use the datalink with his missile for the terminal phase of the attack...
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