China's copy of Russian military equipment

Why is a thread devoted to the S 400 / S 500 being hijacked by individuals to discuss China & India ?

Sujoy wrote:

First , I never said that China sold J 15 or J 11 in the international market . I said China copied Russian designs without taking prior permission .

http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20080425/105928822.html

Lets look at what you said then. Here's your quote:

Sujoy wrote:Fact remains that China purchases weapons from Russia , then remakes them and sells them in the international market .

So Su 33 becomes J 15 , Su-27SK becomes J 11 and S 300V becomes HQ 9 .

It's pretty cut-and-dry that you asserted that China was going to sell reverse engineered Russian tech, and it was obvious that you weren't aware that Russia and China had signed an intellectual property rights agreement over defense technology.

Second , China has already offered the J 11 to Pakistan .

If Pakistan was offered J-11's as you claim, then please be so kind to point out how many J-11's are in service in the Pakistani air-force would you? otherwise then that claim was most likely an unsubstantiated rumor. Pakistan "inspected" J-11B's in March 2011 in a joint Sino-Pakistani exercise, called Shaheen 1, which is in stark contrast to actually being in discussion with China to order J-11's which is erroneous. BTW the ria novosti article was an opinion piece all the way back from 2008, Russian and Chinese relations have progressed since then.

It wasn't . It has component's from the S 300P and is just an imitation of the S 300 PMU .  If China indeed can produce effective SAM in house why does it need to purchase SAM systems from Russia at regular intervals ? And why does a Chinese clone appear only after a purchase has been made from Russia ?

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=krLeSI6vayoC&pg=PA142&lpg=PA142&dq=hq+9+missile+copied+from+S+300&source=bl&ots=urbWrfwHiH&sig=r42r7uJz0sQRrbDbf-sXbmWY3Io&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fqFHU8asGYL38QWkrYLwBw&ved=0CHMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=hq%209%20missile%20copied%20from%20S%20300&f=false


The Chinese are using HQ-9 missiles with the S-300 command posts and radars, which reduces the need to buy the Russian SAM systems .

There is some contradictions I must point out via the "reductio ad absurdum" method. Lets address for one if the HQ-9 is simply copied tech with no legal assistance from the Russian side, than how is that the Russian's didn't make even so much as a peep about pirated intellectual property in the Turkish air-defense tender? Russia and China just only recently signed a intellectual property rights agreement, but the HQ-9 has been in service since 1997, it would of been well within Russia's right to complain but they didn't why is that? As you said Russia was "threatening to sue China" if they didn't respect IP rights, if they didn't complain than it suggests that the HQ-9 wasn't violating Russia's IP despite sharing technology, suggesting the Russian's helped design it and stands to profit off sales of the HQ-9.

Advanced SAM technology is some of the hardest defense tech to reverse engineer (while assault rifles are the exact opposite), and look at the HQ-9 and the Patriot PAC-3 which were offered in in the Turkish tender. The developers of both systems both had extensive looks at S-300 technology (Raytheon took a deep hard look at Slovakian S-300's), both had legal technology transfers of S-300 tech to improve domestic SAMs (China was given license production as well as a tech transfer, S-300 tech was sold voluntarily to Raytheon to improve the Patriot SAM) but if advanced SAM tech is as easy to reverse engineer as you make it out to be than why is that neither system is superior to the most modern S-300? More importantly why is that the HQ-9 has superior capabilities over the PAC-3, despite the fact that the Chinese arms industry is less matured and less experienced that the totality of NATO arms industry (which the PAC-3 is the standard)? For China to leapfrog NATO in SAM technology suggests Russia played a role in designing the HQ-9, combined with fact that there was very much a lack of "legal action" taken. Please address why the Russians didn't take any legal action there.

You need to get your facts right . The S 400 was never offered to Turkey . Rosoboronexport had offered the export version  of S 300 to Turkey .

http://thediplomat.com/2013/09/why-turkeys-buying-chinese-missile-systems/

Actually Russia offered both, except the problem was that Russia was not ready to sell the S-400 just yet and said if they were patient than they would eventually get the S-400 when they were ready, but the S-300 was offered initially as a stop-gap until then obviously with the advantage of being able to share parts and spares between each other to lessen the logistics tail. Saying the S-400 wasn't offered to Turkey is like saying the Mig-35 wasn't offered to India, they would get their orders but they would have to be patient and wait some time.

A side note might be a good idea that people should not post links to articles from the yellow journalist Zachary Keck as his credibility is questionable, just look at all the factual errors, erroneous claims and omitted facts in this embarrassingly laughable Russophobic article lol:

http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/undermine-russia-from-within/

Only after Russia had threatened legal action against China

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Sukhoi-piracy-Russia-threatens-to-sue-China/articleshow/2973405.cms

The problem with the source you posted is that they quoted one source which was none other than the sensationalist Nezavisimaya Gazeta, owned by the Berezovsky media group, the infamous Berezovsky who looted the Soviet economy, who refused to pay his taxes, ran to England and falsely claimed to be an anti-corruption advocate, and a freedom fighter. One Nezavisimaya Gazeta editor was on Al Jazeera debating the purpose of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, and was quoted as saying "It will help with containment (of China)", so they're slant is to be negative and pessimistic of anything concerning Russia, due to the fact that they're disgruntled and have an ax to grind with the Russian govt. for forcing Berezovsky to pay his taxes on assets and wealth he stole from Russia.

In reality their were no plans to sue China, more like just to refuse to sell to China if they didn't sign an intellectual property rights agreement (which they signed).

As I posted in the export thread:
http://sputniknews.com/military/20151119/1030368307/russia-sells-china-billions-dollar-su35.html


Seems it is claimed that China purchased 24 Su-35's for $2B.

China will get 24 Su-35s.


Those 24 Su 35s acquisition is more likely to churn out better Jxx clones.

What will 24 Su35s achieve in an area dominated by 100+ flankers and USN CVBGs ?

max steel wrote:China will get 24 Su-35s.


Those 24 Su 35s acquisition is more likely to churn out better Jxx clones.

What will 24 Su35s achieve in an area dominated by 100+ flankers and USN CVBGs ?

Well 24 fighters are more than whole airforces of some countries have, its not that minor asset as one might think, also its outperforming Jxx SU27 derivates which makes it nice force multiplier basically. And this will make them capable of even faster replacement of old J7s and that seems as their main goal atm.

Russians are aware of that fact, that China is after engine technology however Russians said almost 2 years ago, that in case it comes to sale of SU35 to China contract will be written that way it makes unable for Chinese to reverse engineer its enginies and technology in general without having to pay immense amounts in return. But even if they reverse engineer it, what, Russia is anways going for Izd 30 in future.

There is also a good question of differences between domestic and export Su-35. There is a good chance to place 2D TVC with lower angle of moving like in Su-30MKI instead of 3D TVC. They could be without L-band AESA complex in the wings and without RVV-BD missiles also they could reduce Irbis radar capabilities by placing with only 1 transmitter instead of 2 and lower the peak power from 20 kW to 10 kW and taking out some delicate modes, changes could be as well in data link capabilities, etc.

Militarov wrote:

max steel wrote:China will get 24 Su-35s.


Those 24 Su 35s acquisition is more likely to churn out better Jxx clones.

What will 24 Su35s achieve in an area dominated by 100+ flankers and USN CVBGs ?

Well 24 fighters are more than whole airforces of some countries have, its not that minor asset as one might think, also its outperforming Jxx SU27 derivates which makes it nice force multiplier basically. And this will make them capable of even faster replacement of old J7s and that seems as their main goal atm.

Russians are aware of that fact, that China is after engine technology however Russians said almost 2 years ago, that in case it comes to sale of SU35 to China contract will be written that way it makes unable for Chinese to reverse engineer its enginies and technology in general without having to pay immense amounts in return. But even if they reverse engineer it, what, Russia is anways going for Izd 30 in future.

I am quite sure Russian authorities considered all pro and cons. IMHO current state of Sino-Russian relations unlikely such copy - due to political factors. In every case there is a common enemy making all efforts to start 3 World War before western economy collapses. Su-35 based is nice asset rotecting Spratly Islands for 3 example.

No matter if the Chinese will copy the technology of the Su-35?

Giulio wrote:No matter if the Chinese will copy the technology of the Su-35?

Doesn't matter, this will become China's most advanced air wing for the next several years and it will be completely dependent on Russia. Besides, you can only reverse engineer it to some extent. It is near impossible to make an exact 1:1 copy of the Su-35. China won't be able to make an aircraft that can match the Su-35 any time soon. Their most advanced J-11s are only said to match the now decades old original Su-35 (Su-27M) in their capabilities. So in approximately 17 years, the Chinese were finally able to achieve what Russia had gotten to in 1988.

Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

?

You must be slow.  But can you point out the Radar that China uses that is actually AESA?  What is its performance?  Do you know the difference between AESA and PESA? Benefits and such?  Did you know that Russia has been producing GaAS T/R modules and AESA also for years?  Did you know that China is interested in the Su-35 simply because of its prowess?  Now Russia is working on GaN modules as well.

And you point out exactly where China's avionics is better than Russian? Cause I can tell you, you are full of shit.  Which doesn't come as a surprise since you did not provide 1 form of proof, or even really contribute to this forums besides being useless with your posts.

Did you know that the Irbis-E performance is pretty much on part to the APG-79 used on F-22 simply because of its raw output in KW? This is the key here for you to understand - power applied to the radar systems. AESA isn't some magic system, it is another form of radar technology alternative to PESA. AESA has problems due to T/R module consistency and reliability. There is roughly a 10% failure rate in T/R Modules found in all types of AESA radar, and that 10% failure rate is significant. Add to that, you need to look at how many Watts those T/R modules are operating at? Russia's T/R modules from Istok is roughly 10w each while ones used for N036 for PAK FA testing are 15W each and right now working on developing another method of making them cheap and smaller to fit even more on a radar. As well as GaN. This has been discussed in the PAK FA thread.

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

With which engines is the J-20 going to fly? Chinese electronics aren't more advanced than Russian current, but in a sense they don't need to be, quantity is a quality on its own. The fact that the chinese want to contract for more Sukhois in order to sample them, is telling.

For the rest I agree, these planes need to keep coming.

The thing about the Su-35 and the J-20 is that they don't need to be the best, they just need to be better than 90% of the aircraft out there.

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Not an underestimation by any means. If the J-11D was even comparable to the Su-35, they wouldn't need to buy the Su-35. It doesn't make sense to buy an aircraft that supposedly only has better engines. Even more so, the Su-35 can't use Chinese weapons nor can it interface with Chinese AWACS or other radars. Either the Chinese Military Command isn't very competent with how they are spending their money or they have serious doubts about the J-11D's abilities when they still go ahead and procure approximately 2 squadrons of Su-35s. And before the "China needs engines" excuse is pulled to justify the purchase of the Su-35, the 117S is export approved and I doubt Russia would object if China just ordered a large batch of 117S engines instead of the Su-35.

As for the J-20. It is pretty cool seeing how a fully matured MiG 1.44 may have looked like along with other stolen technology from the US. Like the F-35's EOTS. I am starting to doubt that I will ever see the day when the Chinese produce a fighter without "referencing" someone else's design.

And here we go again...

Yes, I've read that Su-35s radar is not necessarily worse even though it's not AESA and that its detection range is excellent. Fair enough.

But the issue is that a lot of people keep underestimating Chinese tech (and Russian tech too) and it feels like it's still 2001 (or heck, even 2010), even though their advancements have been huuuuge. Read Sinodefence forums, people.

So overall, maybe I went too far when I said that their electrionics and avionics are simply better than the Russian ones. But they are not much worse, and certainly not in around 2020. That's common sense when you look at the size of the economy, R&D spending, military budget, 052D, 055, J-20, J-31, J-10B/C, J-11D, J-16, improving tech in general...

Regarding J-20s engines... Well it seems that it's going to enter service with interim engines (WS-10 or AL-31) and then they'll move on to WS-15 once that is ready (maybe around 2020?). So yeah, engines are probably China's biggest weakness, but it seems they are making great strides and in any case, underpowered 5th gen is better than no 5th gen at all.

China is going to have atleast around 1000 4th (and 5th) gen fighters in 2020. So yes, that is going to keep the US "busy". I'm sure Russia is happy about that.

And thanks for your kind words Sepheronx. Atleast I don't talk about things that I know nothing about (I have no really detailed knowledge about military equipment or tactics, for example), so it should be fine. But I think I have a pretty good overall picture of different militaries and their strength, geopolitics, economies and military history. The big picture.

This forum is full of BS too, even without me. There are quite a few conspiracy theorists, "the west is going to collapse tomorrow, it's all fake", anti-semitism, racism, absolutely blatant Russia fanboyism... MP.net was really pro-US and pro-west, but this place isn't much more objective. And to me that is usually OK (I guess)... just saying.

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Not an underestimation by any means. If the J-11D was even comparable to the Su-35, they wouldn't need to buy the Su-35. It doesn't make sense to buy an aircraft that supposedly only has better engines. Even more so, the Su-35 can't use Chinese weapons nor can it interface with Chinese AWACS or other radars. Either the Chinese Military Command isn't very competent with how they are spending their money or they have serious doubts about the J-11D's abilities when they still go ahead and procure approximately 2 squadrons of Su-35s. And before the "China needs engines" excuse is pulled to justify the purchase of the Su-35, the 117S is export approved and I doubt Russia would object if China just ordered a large batch of 117S engines instead of the Su-35.

As for the J-20. It is pretty cool seeing how a fully matured MiG 1.44 may have looked like along with other stolen technology from the US. Like the F-35's EOTS. I am starting to doubt that I will ever see the day when the Chinese produce a fighter without "referencing" someone else's design.

Honestly, it's probably mostly about the engines. If Chinese tech is so inferior why are they only buying 24 of them? And I've read that Su-35 must be able to interface with Chinese AWACS and radars. Otherwise it would make absolutely no sense to buy them. All in all, it seems to me that the importance of this deal should not be exaggerated to one way or another.

J-20 is not a copy of MiG 1.44, WTF! And yes, J-20 has an EOTS too, so it must be a copy! It's these fucking "double standards" that piss me off... When Chinese weapon systems have some similar characteristics as some of their foreign counterparts, they must automatically be copies! You know... competing systems often tend to look quite similar throughout the history... OMG! How can that be! Chinese designers have to follow the same laws of aerodynamics (and physics) as everyone else... How dare they! And there's absolutely no fucking proof about copying in most cases. It's all media speculation and anti-Chinese propaganda. Of course the Chinese Flankers (or rather, their airframe) were originally copied from Su-27, that is blatantly clear. But J-20? Or even J-31? Total BS. It's so funny... Mitsubishi ATD-X, the Korean KF-X and Saab 2020 are not copies of F-35, but J-31 is? Logic!

These Chinese advancements are totally logical and expected when you look at the overall strength of the country, the size of its economy, R&D and military budget. It should not come as a surprise to anyone, FFS.

Kimppis wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Not an underestimation by any means. If the J-11D was even comparable to the Su-35, they wouldn't need to buy the Su-35. It doesn't make sense to buy an aircraft that supposedly only has better engines. Even more so, the Su-35 can't use Chinese weapons nor can it interface with Chinese AWACS or other radars. Either the Chinese Military Command isn't very competent with how they are spending their money or they have serious doubts about the J-11D's abilities when they still go ahead and procure approximately 2 squadrons of Su-35s. And before the "China needs engines" excuse is pulled to justify the purchase of the Su-35, the 117S is export approved and I doubt Russia would object if China just ordered a large batch of 117S engines instead of the Su-35.

As for the J-20. It is pretty cool seeing how a fully matured MiG 1.44 may have looked like along with other stolen technology from the US. Like the F-35's EOTS. I am starting to doubt that I will ever see the day when the Chinese produce a fighter without "referencing" someone else's design.

Honestly, it's probably mostly about the engines. If Chinese tech is so inferior why are they only buying 24 of them? And I've read that Su-35 must be able to interface with Chinese AWACS and radars. Otherwise it would make absolutely no sense to buy them. All in all, it seems to me that the importance of this deal should not be exaggerated to one way or another.

J-20 is not a copy of MiG 1.44, WTF! And yes, J-20 has an EOTS too, so it must be a copy! It's these fucking "double standards" that piss me off... When Chinese weapon systems have some similar characteristics to some of their foreign counterparts, they must automaticallybe copies! You know... competing systems often tend to look quite similar throughout the history... OMG! How can that be! Chinese designers have to follow the same laws of aerodynamics (and physics) as everyone else... How dare they! And there's absolutely no fucking proof about copying in most cases. It's all media speculation and anti-Chinese propaganda. Of course the Chinese Flankers (or rather, their airframe) were originally copied from Su-27, that is blatantly clear. But J-20? Or even J-31? Total BS. It's so funny... Mitsubishi ATD-X, the Korean KF-X and Saab 2020 are not copies of F-35, but J-31 is? Logic!

These Chinese advancements are totally logical and expected when you look at the overall strength of the country, the size of its economy, R&D and military budget. It should not come as a surprise to anyone, FFS.    

It will will be always about the engines and the armament. Basically the computing power and radar can be dealt with, like the Koreans with their own auto engines. They were poor and classic but with a little beefing up, you wouldn't make a difference between them and german cars.

So baasically, they need the sampling, it will be always about the sampling. Now the J-20 has a lot of things going through the 1.44 lineage. Off course that doesn't mean much. But the fact is though that the J20 has possibly worse engines than the 1.44. There's also the fun part about chinese weapons, so far, the Chinese armament has been conservative, taking from foreign systems what it needed. The best example is the HJ-12 (Javelin Tse Toung). Which doesn't mean it is a bad thing, just showing that on many aspects the Chinese will be conservative and will wait for someone else to break through. They weren't copied, they were reverse engineered for the most part on the J11's from C on. And they didn't need to copy, they just exceeded the licence they had. So yeah, the Chinese play dirty sometimes, and I understand that they need to, because of their relative need to catch up.

Well as for the rest, the size of the economy doesn't explain much there. There are vast domains in which the Chinese with all those trillions roll in 1980 level tin boxes or have the equivalent of Desert Storm era radios. Now let's not get ahead of our times here. China is catching, granted, but they have a huge amount of consolidation to do.

For instance they have to make up their mind about their infantry rifles, infantry doctrine and overall have some fighting experience.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Kimppis wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Not an underestimation by any means. If the J-11D was even comparable to the Su-35, they wouldn't need to buy the Su-35. It doesn't make sense to buy an aircraft that supposedly only has better engines. Even more so, the Su-35 can't use Chinese weapons nor can it interface with Chinese AWACS or other radars. Either the Chinese Military Command isn't very competent with how they are spending their money or they have serious doubts about the J-11D's abilities when they still go ahead and procure approximately 2 squadrons of Su-35s. And before the "China needs engines" excuse is pulled to justify the purchase of the Su-35, the 117S is export approved and I doubt Russia would object if China just ordered a large batch of 117S engines instead of the Su-35.

As for the J-20. It is pretty cool seeing how a fully matured MiG 1.44 may have looked like along with other stolen technology from the US. Like the F-35's EOTS. I am starting to doubt that I will ever see the day when the Chinese produce a fighter without "referencing" someone else's design.

Honestly, it's probably mostly about the engines. If Chinese tech is so inferior why are they only buying 24 of them? And I've read that Su-35 must be able to interface with Chinese AWACS and radars. Otherwise it would make absolutely no sense to buy them. All in all, it seems to me that the importance of this deal should not be exaggerated to one way or another.

J-20 is not a copy of MiG 1.44, WTF! And yes, J-20 has an EOTS too, so it must be a copy! It's these fucking "double standards" that piss me off... When Chinese weapon systems have some similar characteristics to some of their foreign counterparts, they must automaticallybe copies! You know... competing systems often tend to look quite similar throughout the history... OMG! How can that be! Chinese designers have to follow the same laws of aerodynamics (and physics) as everyone else... How dare they! And there's absolutely no fucking proof about copying in most cases. It's all media speculation and anti-Chinese propaganda. Of course the Chinese Flankers (or rather, their airframe) were originally copied from Su-27, that is blatantly clear. But J-20? Or even J-31? Total BS. It's so funny... Mitsubishi ATD-X, the Korean KF-X and Saab 2020 are not copies of F-35, but J-31 is? Logic!

These Chinese advancements are totally logical and expected when you look at the overall strength of the country, the size of its economy, R&D and military budget. It should not come as a surprise to anyone, FFS.    

It will will be always about the engines and the armament. Basically the computing power and radar can be dealt with, like the Koreans with their own auto engines. They were poor and classic but with a little beefing up, you wouldn't make a difference between them and german cars.

So baasically, they need the sampling, it will be always about the sampling. Now the J-20 has a lot of things going through the 1.44 lineage. Off course that doesn't mean much. But the fact is though that the J20 has possibly worse engines than the 1.44.  There's also the fun part about chinese weapons, so far, the Chinese armament has been conservative, taking from foreign systems what it needed. The best example is the HJ-12 (Javelin Tse Toung). Which doesn't mean it is a bad thing, just showing that on many aspects the Chinese will be conservative and will wait for someone else to break through. They weren't copied, they were reverse engineered for the most part on the J11's from C on. And they didn't need to copy, they just exceeded the licence they had. So yeah, the Chinese play dirty sometimes, and I understand that they need to, because of their relative need to catch up.

Well as for the rest, the size of the economy doesn't explain much there. There are vast domains in which the Chinese with all those trillions roll in 1980 level tin boxes or have the equivalent of Desert Storm era radios. Now let's not get ahead of our times here. China is catching, granted, but they have a huge amount of consolidation to do.

For instance they have to make up their mind about their infantry rifles, infantry doctrine and overall have some fighting experience.

Well, exactly. China did "copying", and they had to, in order to catch up. But now that is needed less and less. And regarding Flankers: they have mastered building them and they have hundreds built and in service. That is their main (and only) heavy 4th gen fighter. Why not keep building improved variants (J-11D) and "sampling" (or whatever you want to call it) the best versions the Russians have to offer? And yes, both MiG 1.44 and J-20 have delta-wings and canards. But does that make J-20 a copy? Hell no.

And I didn't say that the Chinese military is 100% "modern". Of course not. I was talking about the new equipment they are procuring. And to be fair, the ground forces are not their priority.

But this getting off-topic. The end.

Kimppis wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Kimppis wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Not an underestimation by any means. If the J-11D was even comparable to the Su-35, they wouldn't need to buy the Su-35. It doesn't make sense to buy an aircraft that supposedly only has better engines. Even more so, the Su-35 can't use Chinese weapons nor can it interface with Chinese AWACS or other radars. Either the Chinese Military Command isn't very competent with how they are spending their money or they have serious doubts about the J-11D's abilities when they still go ahead and procure approximately 2 squadrons of Su-35s. And before the "China needs engines" excuse is pulled to justify the purchase of the Su-35, the 117S is export approved and I doubt Russia would object if China just ordered a large batch of 117S engines instead of the Su-35.

As for the J-20. It is pretty cool seeing how a fully matured MiG 1.44 may have looked like along with other stolen technology from the US. Like the F-35's EOTS. I am starting to doubt that I will ever see the day when the Chinese produce a fighter without "referencing" someone else's design.

Honestly, it's probably mostly about the engines. If Chinese tech is so inferior why are they only buying 24 of them? And I've read that Su-35 must be able to interface with Chinese AWACS and radars. Otherwise it would make absolutely no sense to buy them. All in all, it seems to me that the importance of this deal should not be exaggerated to one way or another.

J-20 is not a copy of MiG 1.44, WTF! And yes, J-20 has an EOTS too, so it must be a copy! It's these fucking "double standards" that piss me off... When Chinese weapon systems have some similar characteristics to some of their foreign counterparts, they must automaticallybe copies! You know... competing systems often tend to look quite similar throughout the history... OMG! How can that be! Chinese designers have to follow the same laws of aerodynamics (and physics) as everyone else... How dare they! And there's absolutely no fucking proof about copying in most cases. It's all media speculation and anti-Chinese propaganda. Of course the Chinese Flankers (or rather, their airframe) were originally copied from Su-27, that is blatantly clear. But J-20? Or even J-31? Total BS. It's so funny... Mitsubishi ATD-X, the Korean KF-X and Saab 2020 are not copies of F-35, but J-31 is? Logic!

These Chinese advancements are totally logical and expected when you look at the overall strength of the country, the size of its economy, R&D and military budget. It should not come as a surprise to anyone, FFS.    

It will will be always about the engines and the armament. Basically the computing power and radar can be dealt with, like the Koreans with their own auto engines. They were poor and classic but with a little beefing up, you wouldn't make a difference between them and german cars.

So baasically, they need the sampling, it will be always about the sampling. Now the J-20 has a lot of things going through the 1.44 lineage. Off course that doesn't mean much. But the fact is though that the J20 has possibly worse engines than the 1.44.  There's also the fun part about chinese weapons, so far, the Chinese armament has been conservative, taking from foreign systems what it needed. The best example is the HJ-12 (Javelin Tse Toung). Which doesn't mean it is a bad thing, just showing that on many aspects the Chinese will be conservative and will wait for someone else to break through. They weren't copied, they were reverse engineered for the most part on the J11's from C on. And they didn't need to copy, they just exceeded the licence they had. So yeah, the Chinese play dirty sometimes, and I understand that they need to, because of their relative need to catch up.

Well as for the rest, the size of the economy doesn't explain much there. There are vast domains in which the Chinese with all those trillions roll in 1980 level tin boxes or have the equivalent of Desert Storm era radios. Now let's not get ahead of our times here. China is catching, granted, but they have a huge amount of consolidation to do.

For instance they have to make up their mind about their infantry rifles, infantry doctrine and overall have some fighting experience.

Well, exactly. China did "copying", and they had to, in order to catch up. But now that is needed less and less. And regarding Flankers: they have mastered building them and they have hundreds built and in service. That is their main (and only) heavy 4th gen fighter. Why not keep building improved variants (J-11D) and "sampling" (or whatever you want to call it) the best versions the Russians have to offer? And yes, both MiG 1.44 and J-20 have delta-wings and canards. But does that make J-20 a copy? Hell no.

And I didn't say that the Chinese military is 100% "modern". Of course not. I was talking about the new equipment they are procuring. And to be fair, the ground forces are not their priority.

But this getting off-topic. The end.    

Now, now, there's a point you have to understand what you're talking about. There's not one that picked the 1.44 route for their 5gen plane. NO ONE. Not even the Russians. Same for the Z10, Kamov design initially, ended up being a Chinese attack helicopter with a lot of compromises (chin gun for instance, calibre etc). I understand that initial studies and ideas and blue prints do not obviously translate into outright copies. The way the F35 ended up while starting as a case study of the Yak 141, doesn't mean that the Yak 141 didn't serve as a template.


Look at the HJ-8/9 family. They're not simple copies, but the base for their existence is Milan parts they copied. Then when they streamlined their production, they bolted up TOW missiles with Milan parts. And you have the final HJ-8.

There's a little to get upset here, the fact is that, the Chinese will need to sort out their industrial capability, so a lot of things won't get half done, like right now for their strategical needs.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Kimppis wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Kimppis wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Kimppis wrote:Keep underestimating China. Chinese electronics, avionics, etc. are superior to current Russian ones and they have AESA radars in active service, but suuureee... they are only comparable to Soviet aircraft from 1988.

Although I do agree that it's probably somewhat more advanced than the Chinese Flankers currently in service. That said, J-11D (and J-16?) should be comparable and it will probably be finished in a few years. Not to mention that J-20 is going to enter service quite soon too.

But the main thing is that they can replace additional 24 J-7s with modern fighters, a little sooner. And Su-35 is going to be superior to all the other 4th gens in the region.

Not an underestimation by any means. If the J-11D was even comparable to the Su-35, they wouldn't need to buy the Su-35. It doesn't make sense to buy an aircraft that supposedly only has better engines. Even more so, the Su-35 can't use Chinese weapons nor can it interface with Chinese AWACS or other radars. Either the Chinese Military Command isn't very competent with how they are spending their money or they have serious doubts about the J-11D's abilities when they still go ahead and procure approximately 2 squadrons of Su-35s. And before the "China needs engines" excuse is pulled to justify the purchase of the Su-35, the 117S is export approved and I doubt Russia would object if China just ordered a large batch of 117S engines instead of the Su-35.

As for the J-20. It is pretty cool seeing how a fully matured MiG 1.44 may have looked like along with other stolen technology from the US. Like the F-35's EOTS. I am starting to doubt that I will ever see the day when the Chinese produce a fighter without "referencing" someone else's design.

Honestly, it's probably mostly about the engines. If Chinese tech is so inferior why are they only buying 24 of them? And I've read that Su-35 must be able to interface with Chinese AWACS and radars. Otherwise it would make absolutely no sense to buy them. All in all, it seems to me that the importance of this deal should not be exaggerated to one way or another.

J-20 is not a copy of MiG 1.44, WTF! And yes, J-20 has an EOTS too, so it must be a copy! It's these fucking "double standards" that piss me off... When Chinese weapon systems have some similar characteristics to some of their foreign counterparts, they must automaticallybe copies! You know... competing systems often tend to look quite similar throughout the history... OMG! How can that be! Chinese designers have to follow the same laws of aerodynamics (and physics) as everyone else... How dare they! And there's absolutely no fucking proof about copying in most cases. It's all media speculation and anti-Chinese propaganda. Of course the Chinese Flankers (or rather, their airframe) were originally copied from Su-27, that is blatantly clear. But J-20? Or even J-31? Total BS. It's so funny... Mitsubishi ATD-X, the Korean KF-X and Saab 2020 are not copies of F-35, but J-31 is? Logic!

These Chinese advancements are totally logical and expected when you look at the overall strength of the country, the size of its economy, R&D and military budget. It should not come as a surprise to anyone, FFS.    

It will will be always about the engines and the armament. Basically the computing power and radar can be dealt with, like the Koreans with their own auto engines. They were poor and classic but with a little beefing up, you wouldn't make a difference between them and german cars.

So baasically, they need the sampling, it will be always about the sampling. Now the J-20 has a lot of things going through the 1.44 lineage. Off course that doesn't mean much. But the fact is though that the J20 has possibly worse engines than the 1.44.  There's also the fun part about chinese weapons, so far, the Chinese armament has been conservative, taking from foreign systems what it needed. The best example is the HJ-12 (Javelin Tse Toung). Which doesn't mean it is a bad thing, just showing that on many aspects the Chinese will be conservative and will wait for someone else to break through. They weren't copied, they were reverse engineered for the most part on the J11's from C on. And they didn't need to copy, they just exceeded the licence they had. So yeah, the Chinese play dirty sometimes, and I understand that they need to, because of their relative need to catch up.

Well as for the rest, the size of the economy doesn't explain much there. There are vast domains in which the Chinese with all those trillions roll in 1980 level tin boxes or have the equivalent of Desert Storm era radios. Now let's not get ahead of our times here. China is catching, granted, but they have a huge amount of consolidation to do.

For instance they have to make up their mind about their infantry rifles, infantry doctrine and overall have some fighting experience.

Well, exactly. China did "copying", and they had to, in order to catch up. But now that is needed less and less. And regarding Flankers: they have mastered building them and they have hundreds built and in service. That is their main (and only) heavy 4th gen fighter. Why not keep building improved variants (J-11D) and "sampling" (or whatever you want to call it) the best versions the Russians have to offer? And yes, both MiG 1.44 and J-20 have delta-wings and canards. But does that make J-20 a copy? Hell no.

And I didn't say that the Chinese military is 100% "modern". Of course not. I was talking about the new equipment they are procuring. And to be fair, the ground forces are not their priority.

But this getting off-topic. The end.    

Now, now, there's a point you have to understand what you're talking about. There's not one that picked the 1.44 route for their 5gen plane. NO ONE. Not even the Russians. Same for the Z10, Kamov design initially, ended up being a Chinese attack helicopter with a lot of compromises (chin gun for instance, calibre etc). I understand that initial studies and ideas and blue prints do not obviously translate into outright copies. The way the F35 ended up while starting as a case study of the Yak 141, doesn't mean that the Yak 141 didn't serve as a template.


Look at the HJ-8/9 family. They're not simple copies, but the base for their existence is Milan parts they copied. Then when they streamlined their production, they bolted up TOW missiles with Milan parts. And you have the final HJ-8.

There's a little to get upset here, the fact is that, the Chinese will need to sort out their industrial capability, so a lot of things won't get half done, like right now for their strategical needs.

I didn't understand the first part regarding 1.44. And exactly... conservatism, getting inspiration and "templates" is not outright "copying". I agree with your post.

People understand that Chinese tech is not at the same level as the West and Russia because you cannot reverse engineer something that complex to a 1:1 level and have it perform the same as the orginal. People are saying that because there hasn't been a lot of innovation out of China when talking about aircraft. There is not one figher plane being produced in China that hasn't been 'inspired' by a foreign design(s). J-10 by the IAI Lavi, J-11 obviously by the Su-27, JF-17 being a very evolved J-7 which in turn is a blatant copy a MiG-21, etc. This isn't helped by the fact that we know extremely little about anything coming out of China. Go on a compare what we know about the Su-35 to the J-11D for example. All we really have of the J-11D is a few blurry pictures and 'rumors.'

I would also want to look at the J-20 and the MiG 1.44 airframes and tell me with a straight face that the J-20 is a unique and innovative design made by divinely inspired Chinese engineers. As for the EOTS, first we hear that China has stolen a ton of American technology and the next thing we know is that the J-20 is equipped with its own EOTS. That must be quite the coincidence and surely those two events have nothing to do with each other. Not saying that other stealth fighter attempts from other countries are not 'influenced' from the big players (Russia and America), but to say that China's own stealth fighters are completely unique in design just makes you look stupid especially with their previous history of copying designs and the case of industrial sabotage in the US.

Drowning your defense sectors with money doesn't guarantee that you will surpass all your rivals. If anything, it just means there is a lot of money going to waste. Just look at Russia and the US. Russia has kept up remarkably to the US despite having a budget that is a fraction of the size. At least the US still innovates, something I have yet to see on a normal scale from China.

If you don't think the Sinodefense is just as bad as Russian and American forums you have a lot to learn.

Kimppis wrote:

I didn't understand the first part regarding 1.44. And exactly... conservatism, getting inspiration and "templates" is not outright "copying". I agree with your post.

Which other 5th Gen plane had that external layout than the J20? The J20 has huge polyedric issues and we don't know why they picked up such and elongated design with such exposed surfaces. One of the ideas is that indeed they had the structural blueprints of the 1.44. So they started from there.

Ivan the Colorado wrote:People understand that Chinese tech is not at the same level as the West and Russia because you cannot reverse engineer something that complex to a 1:1 level and have it perform the same as the orginal. People are saying that because there hasn't been a lot of innovation out of China when talking about aircraft. There is not one figher plane being produced in China that hasn't been 'inspired' by a foreign design(s). J-10 by the IAI Lavi, J-11 obviously by the Su-27, JF-17 being a very evolved J-7 which in turn is a blatant copy a MiG-21, etc. This isn't helped by the fact that we know extremely little about anything coming out of China. Go on a compare what we know about the Su-35 to the J-11D for example. All we really have of the J-11D is a few blurry pictures and 'rumors.'

I would also want to look at the J-20 and the MiG 1.44 airframes and tell me with a straight face that the J-20 is a unique and innovative design made by divinely inspired Chinese engineers. As for the EOTS, first we hear that China has stolen a ton of American technology and the next thing we know is that the J-20 is equipped with its own EOTS. That must be quite the coincidence and surely those two events have nothing to do with each other. Not saying that other stealth fighter attempts from other countries are not 'influenced' from the big players (Russia and America), but to say that China's own stealth fighters are completely unique in design just makes you look stupid especially with their previous history of copying designs and the case of industrial sabotage in the US.

Drowning your defense sectors with money doesn't guarantee that you will surpass all your rivals. If anything, it just means there is a lot of money going to waste. Just look at Russia and the US. Russia has kept up remarkably to the US despite having a budget that is a fraction of the size. At least the US still innovates, something I have yet to see on a normal scale from China.

If you don't think the Sinodefense is just as bad as Russian and American forums you have a lot to learn.

What is inspired and what is not? I mean, where do you draw the line? J-11 has the same basic airframe as Su-27, that is of course clear. Although the insides should be quite different and Chinese, on the newer variants. Chinese military is very secretive in general and J-11D is not even ready yet, so it's not a surprise there's not a lot of info.

And of course we keep hearing about that. You also keep hearing a lot of things about Russia in the western media. Is China spying the US and stealing information? Well of course, but that doesn't mean that they are simply copying all American designs they can get their hands on. There's also no proof that copied EOTS. Both 5th planes have the same feature... So what? That shouldn't be surprising. If copying is so easy why aren't others doing it better? Why is China so suddenly so succesful at it? Because they are not outright copying. It's because their economy and technology has massively improved. It's as simple as that.

I didn't say there's no inspiration. There certainly is and that makes perfect sense to learn from the US and F-22 and F-35, for example. And again, how do you define innovation? That can be pretty "double standardistic" (if that's a word) too. Many Soviet innovations didn't count in the west, because they were not known or implemented there. How about the anti-ship ballistic missiles and hypersonic missiles and so on? And the thing is, we haven't seen anything yet. Their capabilities are growing very quickly still. Of course you can't expect them to massively innovate before they have catched up, which was the case before 2010 or so. Come on.

Sinodefence is strictly moderated and the most respected posters are no fanboys. They just know what they are talking about when it comes to the Chinese military. They acknowledge the Chinese achievements. I'm not saying it's perfect. Russiadefence is more comparable to defence.pk, although I'm not saying that that is only a bad thing.

And more or less "unique" Chinese fighter aircraft: J-8, JH-7 (more of a bomber), J-10, JF-17, J-20 and J-31. There you go. There's a few.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Kimppis wrote:

I didn't understand the first part regarding 1.44. And exactly... conservatism, getting inspiration and "templates" is not outright "copying". I agree with your post.

Which other 5th Gen plane had that external layout than the J20? The J20 has huge polyedric issues and we don't know why they picked up such and elongated design with such exposed surfaces. One of the ideas is that indeed they had the structural blueprints of the 1.44. So they started from there.

That doesn't mean it's bad. And I think the Soviets/Russians didn't implement that layout because the USSR collapsed. Otherwise the Soviets would have developed 1.44 further. Am I mistaken? There are of course multiple theories, but I remember reading that there are many "myths" regarding the non-stealthiness of that layout. Again, I'm not an expert, but I believe the Chinese designers know what they are doing.

Kimppis wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:People understand that Chinese tech is not at the same level as the West and Russia because you cannot reverse engineer something that complex to a 1:1 level and have it perform the same as the orginal. People are saying that because there hasn't been a lot of innovation out of China when talking about aircraft. There is not one figher plane being produced in China that hasn't been 'inspired' by a foreign design(s). J-10 by the IAI Lavi, J-11 obviously by the Su-27, JF-17 being a very evolved J-7 which in turn is a blatant copy a MiG-21, etc. This isn't helped by the fact that we know extremely little about anything coming out of China. Go on a compare what we know about the Su-35 to the J-11D for example. All we really have of the J-11D is a few blurry pictures and 'rumors.'

I would also want to look at the J-20 and the MiG 1.44 airframes and tell me with a straight face that the J-20 is a unique and innovative design made by divinely inspired Chinese engineers. As for the EOTS, first we hear that China has stolen a ton of American technology and the next thing we know is that the J-20 is equipped with its own EOTS. That must be quite the coincidence and surely those two events have nothing to do with each other. Not saying that other stealth fighter attempts from other countries are not 'influenced' from the big players (Russia and America), but to say that China's own stealth fighters are completely unique in design just makes you look stupid especially with their previous history of copying designs and the case of industrial sabotage in the US.

Drowning your defense sectors with money doesn't guarantee that you will surpass all your rivals. If anything, it just means there is a lot of money going to waste. Just look at Russia and the US. Russia has kept up remarkably to the US despite having a budget that is a fraction of the size. At least the US still innovates, something I have yet to see on a normal scale from China.

If you don't think the Sinodefense is just as bad as Russian and American forums you have a lot to learn.

What is inspired and what is not? I mean, where do you draw the line? J-11 has the same basic airframe as Su-27, that is of course clear. Although the insides should be quite different and Chinese, on the newer variants. Chinese military is very secretive in general and J-11D is not even ready yet, so it's not a surprise there's not a lot of info.

And of course we keep hearing about that. You also keep hearing a lot of things about Russia in the western media. Is China spying the US and stealing information? Well of course, but that doesn't mean that they are simply copying all American designs they can get their hands on. There's also no proof that copied EOTS. Both 5th planes have the same feature... So what? That shouldn't be surprising. If copying is so easy why aren't others doing it better? Why is China so suddenly so succesful at it? Because they are not outright copying. It's because their economy and technology has massively improved. It's as simple as that.

I didn't say there's no inspiration. There certainly is and that makes perfect sense to learn from the US and F-22 and F-35, for example. And again, how do you define innovation? That can be pretty "double standardistic" (if that's a word) too. Many Soviet innovations didn't count in the west, because they were not known or implemented there. How about the anti-ship ballistic missiles and hypersonic missiles and so on? And the thing is, we haven't seen anything yet. Their capabilities are growing very quickly still. Of course you can't expect them to massively innovate before they have catched up, which was the case before 2010 or so. Come on.

Sinodefence is strictly moderated and the most respected posters are no fanboys. They just know what they are talking about when it comes to the Chinese military. They acknowledge the Chinese achievements. I'm not saying it's perfect. Russiadefence is more comparable to defence.pk, although I'm not saying that that is only a bad thing.



And more or less "unique" Chinese fighter aircraft: J-8, JH-7 (more of a bomber), J-10, JF-17, J-20 and J-31. There you go. There's a few.  

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Kimppis wrote:

I didn't understand the first part regarding 1.44. And exactly... conservatism, getting inspiration and "templates" is not outright "copying". I agree with your post.

Which other 5th Gen plane had that external layout than the J20? The J20 has huge polyedric issues and we don't know why they picked up such and elongated design with such exposed surfaces. One of the ideas is that indeed they had the structural blueprints of the 1.44. So they started from there.

That doesn't mean it's bad. And I think the Soviets/Russians didn't implement that layout because the USSR collapsed. Otherwise the Soviets would have developed 1.44 further. Am I mistaken? There are of course multiple theories, but I remember reading that there are many "myths" regarding the non-stealthiness of that layout. Again, I'm not an expert, but I believe the Chinese designers know what they are doing.

By inspired I mean some sections were "copied and pasted." Most Chinese aircraft are fully "copied and pasted" such as the IAI Lavi and Su-27. Since the Chinese fail to provide any info that the J-11D is "da ultimate Flanker." Keep in mind that even the AESA radar is not confirmed and there is reasonable doubt that the supposed WS-10 engines don't produce enough power for the AESA radar. With the purchase of the Su-35, it is safe to assume that it will be the best fighter the PLAAF will have for a while.

Of course we have no proof that China copied the EOTS from the F-35 and pasted it on their J-20. After all, would the proud Chinese Government ever say they needed the American's help for something? All we know is that China was involved in industrial espionage that included theft of the F-35 designs and there is a system that looks exactly identical to the EOTS on the J-20. Given the fact that the J-11 is also structurally the same as a Su-27SK doesn't help the Chinese claim that the J-20 system below the nose isn't an unlicensed built EOTS. Also, becoming economically affluent and pumping money into defense research doesn't mean you will achieve the same thing that a rich country made a decade ago.

I suppose you didn't read my message fully. The J-8 has the same layout as the Su-15. The JH-7 is the only exception and that is a bomber not a fighter like you said. The J-10 based off the IAI Lavi (unfinished light fighter from Israel which China bought plans off), JF-17 is a greatly evolved J-7 which is a MiG-21 copy nonetheless. The J-20 is obviously the MiG 1.44 (don't know how can you deny the similarities). The J-31 is an F-35 adapted to use two RD-93 engines because the Chinese can't produce a F135 engine. So there you go.

I suppose you haven't met posters such as Berkut and Franco. We have some very high quality posters here (better than the well worded respected Chino-Bot posters there I might add).

The widely accepted version coming from some UAC executives was that the MiG 1.44 project wasn't continued by Russia because huge economic uncertainty during the time. The designs were most likely compromised back then too. There are also rumors denied by MiG and by the Chinese Government that the Chinese engineers received design input from MiG just like the Kamov designed WZ-10.

EDIT: We are really driving this discussion off topic. I won't continue polluting this topic even further.