Su-30 for Russian Air Force

https://vpk.name/news/187282_kret_peredal_ministerstvu_oboronyi_dva_noveishih_aviacionnyih_bortovyih_kompleksa_radioelektronnogo_protivodeistviya.html

Концерн Радиоэлектронные Технологии (КРЭТ) передал Министерству Обороны Российской Федерации новейшую станцию радиоэлектронного подавления САП-518СМ. Это – первая поставка данного изделия войскам в рамках исполнения Государственного оборонного заказа. Церемония передачи прошла на авиасалоне МАКС-2017.


САП-518СМ является модернизированной версией станции помех САП-518, обладает более высокими ТТХ при значительном улучшении показателей надежности. По условиям государственного контракта КРЭТ продолжит передачу ВКС России станций САП-518СМ для оснащения самолетов СУ-30СМ.

KRET delivered to RuAF first complete of new improved SAP-518SM ECM pods for Su-30SM fighters. Finaly they got them. Now SU-30SM need only targeting pod and it will be complete.

Russian Defense Ministry Receives 100 Su-34s With Radio Warfare Systems

SAP-518 is a new contract. This year, we are supplying some 15 sets for Su-30SM aircraft wrote:

In the video we could see a new build Su-30SM in Irkutsk with new Russian made HUD.

Looking at this Picture from KRET it seems Su-30SM finally get its modernization with domestic components replacing foreign, integration of new weapons and ECM pods. They also write improved radar with longer range. Export Bars-M radar have range of 350 km, so we could assume upgraded domestic Bars-R radar have range of 400+ km.

medo wrote:

Looking at this Picture from KRET it seems Su-30SM finally get its modernization with domestic components replacing foreign, integration of new weapons and ECM pods. They also write improved radar with longer range. Export Bars-M radar have range of 350 km, so we could assume upgraded domestic Bars-R radar have range of 400+ km.

Isn't this representing the differences between the MKI,MKM... versions and the SM. I've seen this before, without the upgranding part you're talking about, to show what are the domestic components build to replace the foreign ones.

Su-30SM will this year receive their first SAP-518SM ECM pods and this is the first time I see SU-30SM with HUD from Su-35, before they all have HUD from Thales. Also we see this year integration of new Kh-29TD and R-77-1 missiles, so something is about this adaptation program from 2016 till 2019. Bars-R radar was modified from export Bars-M for domestic need, but with this upgrade they want to increase the range of radar.

Αnother 2 Su-30SM for Kursk in 27 July.



http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2759331.html

The planes, which arrived on July 27, were built by the IAZ in the framework of the State Defense Order of 2017, and became the third batch of Su-30SM fighters transferred to the Russian Defense Ministry in 2017. As reported earlier, at the end of May, two Su-30SM fighters with blue airborne numbers "71" and "72" were transferred to the Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy and became part of the 72nd aviation base of the Baltic Fleet aviation on the airfield Chernyakhovsk (Kaliningrad region), and on June 3, the first two Su-30SMs were introduced into the 14th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment in Khalino for the rearmament of this regiment (red side numbers "71" and "72").

In total, since 2012, 116 Su-30SM aircraft have been contracted for the Ministry of Defense of Russia, of which 88 are intended for the Russian Air Force (VCS), and another 28 for the Navy of the Russian Navy. To date, the Russian Air Force under the signed contracts thus obtained 70 Su-30SM fighters (of which ten in 2016 and four in Khalino in 2017), and Naval Aviation - 17 (seven of them in 2016 and two in 2017 Year).

The plans for the rearmament of the 14th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (two-squadron convoy) from the MiG-29SMT fighters to Su-30SM fighters became known in 2016. In November, it was officially announced that the pilots of the 14th regiment arrived at the 4th Training and Retraining Center in Lipetsk for retraining for Su-30SM fighters.

According to available information, in total in 2017 the 14th Aviation Regiment is to receive 14 Su-30SM aircraft.

It can be assumed that the MiG-29SMT fighters, freed from the re-equipment of the 14th regiment, having a small age, will go to manning any new aviation regiment.

New batch of 3 Su-30SM depoyed in summertime
This time , tree planes to Baltic Fleet , Nº 73 , 74 , 75

This makes a total of 92 handed over to Rusian armed forces , 72 for VKS and 20 for the Navy
Other 8 are expected this year for the VKS , probably to complete one squadron at Kursk
https://vk.com/wall211280617_2178

George1 wrote:  FFS they don't have many Su-30 Flankers at all, to deploy so many like that... stress them up with acrobatics.

The "acrobatic team" is not only an display unit
237 TsPB of Kubinka have the same full capable planes that the other regiments . The pilots train every year for combat and bombing and probably are some of the better pilots of Russia
In peacetime the first job is the acrobatic fly for display shows for all Rusia and aboard
In case of war, Kubinka is the airbase of Moscow, is subordinated to the central command of VKS

KiloGolf wrote:
with the last deliveries the number of Su-30 Flankers in VKS is:
81 Su-30SM
20 Su-30M2

101 in total

About the numbers, the total of Su-30SM were 83 to the end of 2016
Probably 2 of the planes, Nº50 & Nº51 (seen with numbers in red) were deployed in summer and were not announced , destined for complemet the Su-35 sqdn. of Vladivostok
The Nº51 during the 2017 Air Force Day in Khurba



The planes made by year:

2 planes in 2012:  2 for VKS in Akhtubisnk
14 planes in 2013: 14 for VKS (4 Lipestk , 10 Domna)
21 planes in 2014: 18 for KVS (14 Domna , 4 Dzemgi) and 3 for Navy (Saki)
27 planes in 2015: 22 for VKS (18 Millerovo , 4 Akhtubisnk) and 5 for Navy (Saki)
19 planes in 2016: 12 for VKS (2 Millerovo , 2 Vladivostok , 8 Kubinka) and 7 for Navy (4 Saki , 2 Severomorsk , 1 Chernyakhovsk)
17 planes in 2017: 12 for KVS (4 Kursk and 8 more expected in 2017) and 5 for Navy (Chernyakhovsk)

Then 92 deployed and 8 more expected , a total of 100 at the end of 2017
Next year probably 16  , 8 for VKS and 8 for Navy

About Su-30M2 (MK2) you cannot count here, are totally different airplane than SU-30SM (MK5)
Su-30M2 are for replace the older Su-27UB while Su-27SM/SM3 still works. After that ,about 2025 , will be send probably to training bases

3 more to Naval Aviation. 20 in total.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2802399.html

franco wrote:

George1 wrote:

franco wrote:Check your math

Beginning to look like the 28 may be assigned like this;

12 - Saki
12 - Chernyakhovsk
4 - Severomorsk-3 (flying with the remaining Su-33)

Yes you are right. I fixed it. These 4 in Severomorsk whats their role actually there?

1. They are 2-seaters so some training.
2. With the remaining Su-33 gives a northern Naval Aviation Attack unit.  

The attack units in North District are the two squadrons of Su-24M/MR of 98 SAP in Monchegorsk , under the command of North Fleet


Also the MiG-29K gives the North Fleet task force some attack ability as is a multirole figther (FGA)
The main role of Su-33 ( Su-27K ) shipborne fighter is to defend the North Fleet task force , and also , as Su-33 is the only "Flanker" in North District at now , have the same misión of the other "Flankers" of other Military Districts as air superiority fighter ,when they are not on board the Kuznetsov
The Naval strike/ground attack capacity of Su-33 is very low ,in spite of which it has been tested in Syria

The 279 KIAP have several Su-25UTG as trainers for take off/landing from Kuznestov and from the"sky jump" at NIKTA (Saki-Crimea)
Also , this regiment have a couple of Su-27UB , nº 20 and nº21 , as well it seems are only using the Nº20


About the 2 Su-30SM sent to 279 KIAP , bmpd sais that:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2351574.html
These aircraft became the first Su-30SM, received in the aviation of the Northern Fleet. At the beginning of December 2016 the Izvestia newspaper reported that the third squadron on the Su-30SM aircraft would be established at the 279th Aviation Regiment at Severomorsk-3. On the basis of this squadron, in the future, as new SU-30SM machines arrive, it is planned to form a new separate aviation regiment.

The Su-30SM is replacing all the Su-24M/MR in the role of Naval strike/ground attack
It seems that after complete the squadrons of Saki and Kaliningrad , the third could be this, placed temporally in Severomorsk as 3rd squadron of 279ºKIAP

The planing is to have 4 squadrons in 2020 (48), probably the fourth sqdn. in Yelizovo
Later, in years 2021-2025 other 4 squadrons will be raised for complete 4 regiments
Then , the 24 Su-30SM of North fleet , will replace the SU-24M/MR of Monchegorsk, forming a new regiment in a different location. Severomorsk-3 is the naval airbase of shipborne airplanes.

medo wrote:I think NAVY will order more Su-30SM. They also need them in Pacific fleet and most probably they will equip full squadron of Su-30SM in Northern fleet.

Both  , Navy and VKS will order more planes in the SAP 2018-2025
The first planing was 2016-2020 , but was cutted to 2016-2028 for the problems with Ukraine , sanctions, economic crisis , and of course the presidential election of next spring in Russia
Is for that they only contracted 36 Su-30SM (28+8 ) instead the 70-75 announced for get until 2020
I think when the elections are over, we all know who will win, a new state armament plan will be announced for period until 2025

Navy will need to get 10 Su-30SM each year for complete 4 regiments in 2020 , as well the number need for VKS is lower, about 8 planes per year in period 2018-2025 , then 18 airplanes each year is a reasonable ammount

AlfaT8 wrote:
How odd, wouldn't the SU-34 be the proper replacement, i get that the SU-30SM is a good all-rounder, but does it have the much vaunted SVP-24 targeting system??

No , Su-34 is a tactical bomber  , as well could be used in the Navy
The Su-30SM in the Navy has the role of Naval Strke (anti-ship). ALso is multirole can be used as fighter for protect the coast of penínsulas like Kola , Kamchatka , Crimea and the exclave of Kaliningrad,
The navy need this more than a specialized and heavy airplane , given that Navy has far fewer aircraft than VKS

medo wrote:

Looking at this Picture from KRET it seems Su-30SM finally get its modernization with domestic components replacing foreign, integration of new weapons and ECM pods. They also write improved radar with longer range. Export Bars-M radar have range of 350 km, so we could assume upgraded domestic Bars-R radar have range of 400+ km.

I thought export Bars has something like 250km range? It would be interesting to know how far they extended the range of the radar, especially if the output of the power is the same. Reason why Irbis-E has 400km range is because of high power input. If they manage to increase the range to 400km or 300km or whatever for the Bars-R, then I would imagine such an upgrade to the Irbis-E would give it 450km plus range.

miketheterrible wrote:

medo wrote:

Looking at this Picture from KRET it seems Su-30SM finally get its modernization with domestic components replacing foreign, integration of new weapons and ECM pods. They also write improved radar with longer range. Export Bars-M radar have range of 350 km, so we could assume upgraded domestic Bars-R radar have range of 400+ km.

I thought export Bars has something like 250km range?  It would be interesting to know how far they extended the range of the radar, especially if the output of the power is the same.  Reason why Irbis-E has 400km range is because of high power input.  If they manage to increase the range to 400km or 300km or whatever for the Bars-R, then I would imagine such an upgrade to the Irbis-E would give it 450km plus range.

It depend on the size of the target. Bars-M radar have 350 km range for bigger targets, I think it detect Su-27 at 330 km range. Irbis detect small 3 m2 targets at 400+ km range. Regarding Bars radars, Bars-M radar have peak power limited at 5 kW, but Chelnok transmitter inside have peak power 7 kW, so Bars-R in Su-30SM could work at 7 kW peak power and with newer processor longer range is not that difficult to reach comparing to export Bars-M in Su-30MKI/MKM. N001VEP with 6 kW peak power also have 350 km range against big targets and Bars is more modern PESA radar

I've always wondered what was meant by slapping a single operational range limit on different radars, especially since said limit is at the mercy of the situation.

For instance:

Irbis detect small 3m^2 targets at 400+ km range

Grand that it specifies a rough target size, but what about the aspect? whether the radar is pointed at the rear, front or any other aspect of a target, and depending on the speed of the target, it could easily cause an alarming displacement of that value. So are these singular values describing the radar's performance when aimed at a target flying head on, or flying away? or is there some happy medium (a stationary target) which determines it?

What is rated is head on. All other sides are a guess. When they test the radar, they test it at various angles.

I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12140129@egNews
08/28/2017
The party of new Su-30SM fighter aircraft entered the Aviation Regiment of the Air Defense Forces in the Kursk Región

The fighters of the generation "4+" Su-30SM made a flight from the airfield of the Irkutsk aircraft factory to man the squadrons of the aviation regiment of the Western Military District (ZVO), based in the Kursk region.
During the planned rearmament, the regiment received two super-maneuverable Su-30SM fighters. Aviation equipment will go into the regiment's combat strength and take up protection of air borders.
At present, the pilots have completed the retraining at the base of the Lipetsk Aviation Center of the VKS and carried out the first sorties with the combat employment of aviation weapons.


This two could be the series 1416 and 1417 , deployed after the 1418-19-20 of last week

marcellogo wrote:

medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

[1] Radar Parameters

Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

Quoted from Carlo Kopp

No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

medo wrote:

marcellogo wrote:

medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

[1] Radar Parameters

Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

Quoted from Carlo Kopp

No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.

KiloGolf wrote:

medo wrote:

marcellogo wrote:

medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

[1] Radar Parameters

Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

Quoted from Carlo Kopp

No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.

IRST detect F-22 at longer range and could use R-27ET against it. Anyway, F-22 is more stealth than newer F-35 and if its RCS is 0,1 m2, than it is no problem for GBAD as well as for ARM missiles to lock on it. It is like attacking a cruise missile.

medo wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

medo wrote:

marcellogo wrote:

medo wrote:I think there was one interesting info, which went through practicaly unnoticed. It was an info, that in 15th Oktober 2015 Su-30SM detect F-22 at range more than 40 km and that soon after that F-22s in Incirlik base were replaced by F-15C fighters. This is interesting as this was not in some exercise, where F-22 use additional devices to increase RCS and radar work in training mode, but in real combat zone, where F-22 fly in full stealth mode and with radar in combat mode. For sure Su-30SM record radar caracteristics with L-150 Pastel, which is also ELINT complex and not only a RWR. More important is, that they record real F-22 stealth caracteristics.

Why this is interesting? Because RCS of F-35 is claimed to be around 0,005 m2 and RCS of F-22 is around 0,0001 m2.



If we look at this graph published by Carlo Kopp from Ausairpower years ago, we could see, that N011M Bars-M radar should detect F-22 at range less than 10 km. This small RCS is for frontal aspect. If it detect it from the side and RCS is 100 times bigger, than it is still 0,01 m2 and Bars-M radar should detect it at little more than 20 km range. Bars-M radar have 40 km range for RCS 0,1 m2, what is 1000 times bigger than F-22 frontal RCS.

Now we could assume, that Bars-R radar in Su-30SM is far better than export Bars-M, or F-22 is not that stealth as it is claimed to be or both.

THe one of RCS was dismounted years ago: published valors were thebest ones  i.e the ones at optimal angle of incidence of the radar waves, given that in an air to air engagement this angle is continously changing changhing such angles never remain stable.

[1] Radar Parameters

Radar Cross Sections cited (X-band):
F-22A Front Aspect = 0.0001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 – 0.001 m2 (0.005 used in this analysis);
F-35A Front Aspect = 0.001 m2, Side and Rear Aspect = 0.01 m2;
PAK-FA All Aspect = 0.01 m2;
Su-35-1 Front Aspect= 2 m2.

Quoted from Carlo Kopp

No, all aspect RCS of F-22 have to be between 0,01 m2 and 0,001 m2. Su-30SM theoretically MUST NOT detect F-22 at longer range than 20 km at its best. But Su-30SM detect it at range more than 40 km in combat zone in Syria, where F-22 operate in full stealth, what makes F-22 RCS 0,1 m2, what is 10 to 100 times bigger RCS as it should be. Now this could mean that Bars-R is far more powerful than export Bars-M or that F-22 and F-35 are not that stealth as they are claimed to be.

Well 40km is nothing to brag about though. Su-30SM is being inducted right now, in 2017.
The last F-22A was delivered more than half a decade ago (late 2011).

So it's quite bad for the Flanker here. A simple C7 can handle a Flanker in double that range. The delta, three times that.
APG-77(V)1 can deal with them from more 100 km afar.

IRST detect F-22 at longer range and could use R-27ET against it. Anyway, F-22 is more stealth than newer F-35 and if its RCS is 0,1 m2, than it is no problem for GBAD as well as for ARM missiles to lock on it. It is like attacking a cruise missile.

kilo is missing the point. The point is, the F-22 isn't as stealth as proclaimed. And while the Su-30 radar may see the F-22 at only 40km~ range, its IRST would see it roughly at 110km range. Ground assets would see it significantly further away, etc etc etc. It would be less trouble for a MiG-31 as well with its Zaslon radar due to L band use.

The other point Medo is making is that F-35 is a lot less stealthy thank F-22 so in theory, Su-30 would have less trouble see it than it does F-22.

miketheterrible wrote:kilo is missing the point. The point is, the F-22 isn't as stealth as proclaimed. And while the Su-30 radar may see the F-22 at only 40km~ range, its IRST would see it roughly at 110km range. Ground assets would see it significantly further away, etc etc etc.  It would be less trouble for a MiG-31 as well with its Zaslon radar due to L band use.  

The other point Medo is making is that F-35 is a lot less stealthy thank F-22 so in theory, Su-30 would have less trouble see it than it does F-22.

Assuming a Su-30 can comfortably detect an F-35 at 100 or 120 km. It's still bad imo.
Western radars and missile technology has evolved enough to counter such 'performance'.

KiloGolf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:kilo is missing the point. The point is, the F-22 isn't as stealth as proclaimed. And while the Su-30 radar may see the F-22 at only 40km~ range, its IRST would see it roughly at 110km range. Ground assets would see it significantly further away, etc etc etc.  It would be less trouble for a MiG-31 as well with its Zaslon radar due to L band use.  

The other point Medo is making is that F-35 is a lot less stealthy thank F-22 so in theory, Su-30 would have less trouble see it than it does F-22.

Assuming a Su-30 can comfortably detect an F-35 at 100 or 120 km. It's still bad imo.
Western radars and missile technology has evolved enough to counter such 'performance'.

not really. Physics is physics.  The radars used now at 1500~ t/R modules operating at 15w each at peak use with 10% failure rate would possibly give the F-22 the ability to see the Su-30 at roughly 300km at peak. Less than that at normal operation, due to the Su-30 being bulky in RCS. But like in most air to air engagements, it isn't a 1 to 1. As well, it depends on the scenario.  Once F-22 or F-35 launches its missile, it is vaulnerable. Recall recently the Su-22 being shot down, and how it managed to counter the first AIM launch.

If it was head on, and both were flying towards each other, fine. But that isn't the case.

That also brings into the point as to why Russia moves closer to short engagements because when it is in the ~100km range, it can use its various sensors to track/engage a target. BVR is a different case. But then again, Su-30 isn't an interceptor nor air superiority. It's a multirole aircraft to compliment Su-35.

Which now brings me to another question: why don't they bother adding L band elements to all their Radar now? It would be ideal when scanning with L band in order to look for "stealthy" targets then use the xband for tracking? I mean, the technology has been used plenty before.

miketheterrible wrote:Recall recently the Su-22 being shot down, and how it managed to counter the first AIM launch.

I don't know that, can you please elaborate the whole scenario? I only knew about the shot down.

That also brings into the point as to why Russia moves closer to short engagements

What does that mean?