Su-30 for Russian Air Force

miketheterrible wrote:I think the 36 in question are now orders, the next orders will be these newer Su-30's.

And yes, I am correct.  They might as well make a Su-35 two seater and be done with it.

As well, Irbis-E's performance mentions was years ago.  As far back as 2009.  Same time Bars radar was much less capable than it is today (Yes, Medo is correct, 400km range for larger targets, about 250km - 300km for fighter sized targets (3m^2).  That is now or around 2014 when Bars-R came to light and all its improvements (Without needing much for power output increase.  As Medo said, with new APU's they could just switch outright to Irbis radar).  But for what we know, they may have already made modernization of the Irbis Radar for better sensitivity and increase range within the same amount of power draw or less.

With the same tech, s-400 radars should be able to see anything at max range, stealth or not. New awacs will be beast and even smaller ones with smaller radar than a-100 can be very good if a radar with an antenna of 1m can see a target of 3m2 at 400km which is what awacs can do today then an awacs mounted on SSJ-100 or similar plane could see f-22 at 500-600 km easily. Even track it ajd guide r-37 on them.

if you are insinuating that the Irbis doesn't see that far for a fighter sized target, it was already proven in a video submitted on youtube years ago of a Irbis E detecting targets at various ranges, 3M^2 at over 320km.



apparently target in question on the video is 1m^2

miketheterrible wrote:I think the 36 in question are now orders, the next orders will be these newer Su-30's.

And yes, I am correct.  They might as well make a Su-35 two seater and be done with it.

As well, Irbis-E's performance mentions was years ago.  As far back as 2009.  Same time Bars radar was much less capable than it is today (Yes, Medo is correct, 400km range for larger targets, about 250km - 300km for fighter sized targets (3m^2).  That is now or around 2014 when Bars-R came to light and all its improvements (Without needing much for power output increase.  As Medo said, with new APU's they could just switch outright to Irbis radar).  But for what we know, they may have already made modernization of the Irbis Radar for better sensitivity and increase range within the same amount of power draw or less.

Su-35 is just a stopgap for the Su-57.

When the Su-57 is available they won't need to procure more Su-35s, but they'll still need the 2-seater Flankers for all sorts of multirole duties; strike, interception, patrol, etc... However they're not meant to be top-of-the-line air superiority fighters with the highest-end equipment such as the Su-35 or Su-57 are. They're your bread and butter and you need a lot of them, so you want to aim for best value for money; not the most expensive technologies.

miketheterrible wrote:if you are insinuating that the Irbis doesn't see that far for a fighter sized target, it was already proven in a video submitted on youtube years ago of a Irbis E detecting targets at various ranges, 3M^2 at over 320km.

apparently target in question on the video is 1m^2

I'm not. I'm just wondering what new awacs could do if a radar with an antenna of 1m and power output of 20kW can see such targets at 400km.

There are numbers on the net about nato awacs having ranges of 300-400 against 4th generation fighters. This is less capable than a irbis e. Then if you use the irbis e tech on such big radars you can see raptors and f-35 at max range easily.

Thanks for the video.

flamming_python wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I think the 36 in question are now orders, the next orders will be these newer Su-30's.

And yes, I am correct.  They might as well make a Su-35 two seater and be done with it.

As well, Irbis-E's performance mentions was years ago.  As far back as 2009.  Same time Bars radar was much less capable than it is today (Yes, Medo is correct, 400km range for larger targets, about 250km - 300km for fighter sized targets (3m^2).  That is now or around 2014 when Bars-R came to light and all its improvements (Without needing much for power output increase.  As Medo said, with new APU's they could just switch outright to Irbis radar).  But for what we know, they may have already made modernization of the Irbis Radar for better sensitivity and increase range within the same amount of power draw or less.

Su-35 is just a stopgap for the Su-57.

When the Su-57 is available they won't need to procure more Su-35s, but they'll still need the 2-seater Flankers for all sorts of multirole duties. However they're not meant to be top-of-the-line air superiority fighters with the highest-end equipment such as the Su-35 or Su-57 are. They're your bread and butter and you need a lot of them, so you want to aim for best value for money; not the most expensive technologies.

But Su-35 is cheaper than Su-30SM.  So that kind of throws this whole debate aside since well, it is supposed to be cheap.

Su-57 wont come out in numbers.  I have a theory - a lot of the technology from Su-57 will end up in the Su-35 and the rest.  Reason is that stealth isn't necessary anymore since ways of tracking and engaging stealth is way more advanced than it was 10 years ago and current stealth platforms are not really effective.  Thus it becomes a very expensive acquisition for little to no gain.  Various technologies can come to Su-35 from Su-57 since radar housing is similar dimensions from what I read and the power output from the Su-35S APU is more than enough to power that N036 radar.  Which in this case, can also be installed in current Su-30SM.

They will aim for something even newer and better than Su-57.  By then, they may start to introduce a Su-57 in numbers as overall design of the Su-35 will be exhausted.

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:if you are insinuating that the Irbis doesn't see that far for a fighter sized target, it was already proven in a video submitted on youtube years ago of a Irbis E detecting targets at various ranges, 3M^2 at over 320km.

apparently target in question on the video is 1m^2

I'm not. I'm just wondering what new awacs could do if a radar with an antenna of 1m and power output of 20kW can see such targets at 400km.

There are numbers on the net about nato awacs having ranges of 300-400 against 4th generation fighters. This is less capable than a irbis e. Then if you use the irbis e tech on such big radars you can see raptors and f-35 at max range easily.

Thanks for the video.

The AWACS mentioned, A-100, is capable of seeing targets upwards to 600km. Possibly even further. Detecting them at such large ranges is not out of the question. It is the tracking them is the tough part. Also, A-100 radar system is supposed to be AESA too, so it will be different in terms of sensitivity to its antenna.

miketheterrible wrote:.....But Su-35 is cheaper than Su-30SM. ....

Since when?

VKS version of Su-30 is best bang for the buck in history of aviation.

PapaDragon wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:.....But Su-35 is cheaper than Su-30SM. ....

Since when?

VKS version of Su-30 is best bang for the buck in history of aviation.

I believe it was because of mentioned prices of Su-35 individually was less than $30M per aircraft. Roughly $27M per aircraft.

I guess best would be to compare prices in Rubles of recent orders, and how many they got per aircraft.

A Su-30SM with the engine of Su-35, updated avionics and a more powerful APU is a practical equivalent of a two seater version of it.

-while in the case of Su-30 they just needed to take an existing plane and modify it in order to test the new suit, developing a two seater version of Su-35 plane would need to get back to designer table, build a prototype and perform almost a full certification test run if not complete state one.

-Su-30 have sold a lot abroad in the past decades so a potential retrofitting market is already present while the Su-35 is much more recent and still in their green years.

-Su-30 is made at Irkusk while Su-35 at KnAAZ and remaining slots there are already for Su-57.
Actual production batch of Su-30SM  is about to be fulfilled and another contract need to be signed as there are still a request for it, and not Su-35, by both VKS than VMF, so better to have them at the highest possible standard.

Above all, Su-30SM and Su-35 are, in the minds and plans of the high commands are considered complementary and not alternative planes, just as also Su-34 are.

Su-35 would be an Air Defense and Air Superiority plane, Su-30 are Tactical Fighters and Maritime Patrol planes (while covering also the need of OCU for Su-35 and Su-57) while Su-34 is a light tactical bomber. Su-35 have also a successor almost ready in the form of Su-57 so investing heavily in future version of it make not sense at all.
Better to look after a two seater version of Su-57 instead.

New video with some nice interior pictures.

LMFS wrote:Well said. The Super MKI for India would be based on these improvements I think.

Only thing I disagree is that Su-57 needs a two seater version. It has been designed from the beginning as a multirole fighter with virtual co-pilot, so a second human on board should not be needed. In fact, it could be thinkable to retrofit this system into the Su-35 in the future and reinforce its multi-role capability.

Actually, the proposed future version of the su-57 dispenses altogether with any pilot, and foresees it as the basis of Russia's 6th gen. aircraft' development ambitions.

Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

Multitude of reasons:

1) PESA won't be outdated. Don't let marketing fool you.
2) AESA very expensive and performance increase may not be sufficient.
3) they are working on newer AESA tech like ROFAR (Photonics) and making newer GaAS and GaN modules which aren't out yet. Current are rather inefficient.

Russia's been producing T/R GaAS modules since early 2000's. They produced them in the tens of thousands dating back in 2009 or so, as many ground based systems use them.

Reason why they weren't used in airforce is because of cost and that they average around ~10+% failure rate on the T/R modules. So with modules only around 5W, that is a pretty big failure. That usually comes with lack of proper cooling.

They we're working on T/R modules which was shown quite a few years ago, that we're smaller than the standard modules and operating at 10W in a quad module. What happened to that? Don't know. Possibly still produced for specific needs like wireless network and what not.

Then Rostec, whom owns both Phazotron and Tikhomirov NIIP is working on the ROFAR, which they have set up test benches and build a whole new facility just for it's development. With even rumors of it being field tested too last year.

And of course, PESA still has potential, especially since now they are a hybrid structure. High power, high accuracy, higher (than older models) resolution and at a reduced cost compared to AESA, even the older AESA variants.

Of course the Su-30SM and what not could hold the N036 radar since the N036 is designed around bars radar family but uses the GaAS AESA modules. They could greatly reduce costs by making many more of these radars to be used as backwards compatibility with Su-30 and Su-35. But the cost may skyrocket, while performance is about the same as the Su-35. Because in the end, it's power input/output. 20KW of power from the APU of the Su-35 and Su-57 will end up providing just enough for the radar to have similar performance.

I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

Because installing a completely new component in an existing frame take a lot more text time than updating an already installed one.

Lot of people seems to forget how PESA and AESA radar have different weight distribution and balance.

While in a PESA radar RF transmitter and antenna elements are separated one from the other, in AESA they are physically connected: it means not only that the weight imbalance between them is completely different but that while in an actual PESA equipped Su-30 or  Su-35 antenna plate can be mechanically steered in order to enhance the quite limited FOW typical of the ESA radars, in an Aesa radar this possibility is much more difficult to achieve.
Actually, no steerable AESA antenna is still in active service and as it can be seen in the Raven radar for Gripen E/F this future capacity cost a lot in terms of maximum number of emitters you can put in a given space.
Su-57 resolve the issue through side arrays but such a solution is obviously out of question for legacy frames.

A pair of multi-purpose Su-30SM fighters will join the squadron of the air regiment of the Western Military District (ZVO), based in the Kursk region.

More
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201809261818-mil-ru-14k5r.html