Su-25 attack aircraft

I would like to see them coordinate development of sensors and equipment and systems for the Su-25 with Kamov and Mil.

The new EO and radar sensors in the Mi-28NM and Ka-52M and the upgrades for the Su-25 don't need to be different and separately developed.

Working together they could create new systems that are related and compatible and perhaps some pod based systems that can be carried by light aircraft like MiG-35s or Yak-130s or even light transport planes to allow finding targets from standoff distances... EO systems with ranges of 30km plus and MMW radar systems that can detect moving armour at similar ranges would be very useful on CAS and attack helicopters as well as drones and even balloons floating 5-6km above defensive lines 20 kms from the front line...

Working together can save money and maximise the production and use of these systems making them rather more affordable.

Developing a pod that can carry these systems means it could be added to all sorts of aircraft to give them air to ground capacity... especially if it includes two way datalinks to ground forces so you can communicate with friendly forces and drones and share information in real time.

The scope for new generation thermal sights and digital night vision devices, not to mention MMW radar arrays that can generate very high resolution views of the terrain ahead out to rather significant distances would allow further improvements and upgrades to the type.

The T and TM upgrades were considered too expensive, but I would think the costs of modern avionics and their performance... certainly in the area of night vision systems has improved and matured to the point where a targeting pod with new EO and equipment could be fitted to allow rather good performance when operating day or night.

It would allow the aircraft to engage targets from greater distances with better performance and improving the safety of the aircraft.

Unification of systems and sensors with attack helicopters would enable improved performance without having to recreate the wheel three times.

A new potent missile would be the LMUR with digital two way datalink and thermal seeker that allows the missile to be fired and the target selected with the missile in flight.

There was a video in one of the Ukraine conflict threads where a LMUR missile was launched to destroy a bridging section the enemy had set up over a river. By the time the missile arrived there was a BMP-2 crossing the bridge so the operator selected the BMP as the target and destroyed that and launched a second missile to take out the bridge section they were originally going for.

These missiles are mostly launched by attack helicopters but I would suspect an enlarged version with rather longer range might be useful when launched from a Su-25 or indeed Yak-130 or MiG-35. It would probably benefit from being launched from the latter two aircraft in two seater versions so the weapon operator can use the thermal view from the camera to look at enemy forces on the way to and around the target they are engaging so follow up missiles can be launched to get other targets or they can change targets to high priority targets when they are detected.

The Su-25 could probably carry two or three current LMUR missiles per weapon pylon (with adapters) which would allow it to carry up to 8 x 3 = 24 missiles, which would be rather potent... but probably rather more than it would normally need or use in a single mission.

I did like the Vikhr weapon pylon on the T and TM models where a single weapon pylon could carry an 8 tube rack of Vikhrs under one pylon under each wing.

Perhaps a wing pod with extra flares and chaff dipoles and jamming antenna at each end, plus LMUR and Vikhrs and a couple of glide bombs and you could really kick butt.

LMUR would be excellent against ground targets and Vikhr is supersonic and can be used against ground and air targets... and a few glide bombs can smash targets most missiles would have trouble dealing with.

The thing is though that if you separate the Su-25 from the target by using an Orlan drone to find the target and lase the target and the Su-25 just flys to the ballistic range of the missile and launches it and then leaves, or you have multiple drones marking multiple targets and the Su-25 launches multiple missiles in the direction of the targets then why bother with an armoured ground attack aircraft?

If you can loft the Kh-25ML to extended range targets... say 30km with a lofted trajectory where it gets its laser lock as it started falling down on the target area then you don't need an armoured high tech attack plane... in fact you could use the super cheap single engined MiG-UTS new jet trainer to carry one or two or four of these missiles.

The attack is coordinated by the drone operators who go looking for targets and when they find a suitable target... stationary or moving they call up air support... in this case a cheap light training aircraft that can fly at low level to a point 30km away from the target... accelerate and pull a climb and launch a missile and then turn and fly home. The drone is told of the launch and synchronises laser marking the target for when the missile approaches the target area and then marks till impact.

There is no need in this case for the Su-25 to fly around enemy territory and search for targets because the drone is doing that.

The alternative would be for something like the MiG-35 to use EO and AESA radar to scan for targets and it can use flight speed and altitude to increase the flight range of any missile launched, and of course will have better avionics to protect itself... flying above MANPAD range and only having to worry about medium and heavy missile threats.

I think the Su-25 could be further upgraded and its use agaisnt targets on or near the front line make it useful, but it operates at medium to low altitudes which are not ideal for launching weapons equipped with glide kits, like say a MIG-35 would be able to benefit from... able to climb and accelerate to speed to launch a missile or release a guided bomb with a glide kit.

The key I think is unification... CAS fixed wing aircraft and helicopters and drones and airships and balloons and of course light attack aircraft... the MiG-35 essentially being the replacement for the MiG-27 and Su-17 family of aircraft.

The Su-25 was very good because it wasn't a fast jet and could take in the battlefield and find the enemy and attack them.

It was cheap and simple but these days it needs more capable sensors and standoff weapons and better self defence systems and equipment to get its job done.

It wont remain cheap to buy but it should remain cheap to use where all the expensive components allow detection of targets and threats at extended range and standoff weapons to allow the targets and threats to be engaged at extended range to make the platform cheap to use and more survivable in combat.

You already got Su-25 in service so also upgrading them to SM3 and adding such other capabilities would cost less than acquiring a brand new plane no matter how economical it would be.

Very true, and not every conflict is going to be against a country with air defences and super power support of the order that Kiev has squandered.

In COIN type operations the aircraft is proven excellent, but of course if new technology can improve the ability of the crew to find targets and threats on the ground and in the air then it makes sense to add them.

As a design concept it was a simple cheap aircraft delivering simple cheap weapons, making it relatively cheap to buy and operate and use in terms of ordinance.

Evolution has shown that improved avionics allow better target detection and better survival, but at the price of increased costs to buy or upgrade, but I don't think operational costs have gone up much.

Glide kits wont massively spike up costs either but will improve standoff performance and reach with essentially dumb iron bombs.

I would say the new improved 57mm rockets with better range and much larger payloads will actually be even better against some targets, while perhaps being cheaper than the current 80mm rockets.

And why go to a MANNED one anyway for performing JUST such a mission, an yet propelled loyal wingman drone would be enough anyway.

I don't think drones are ready to replace people yet... the drone equivalent of an Su-25 does not really exist, but the closest comparison would be the Baykratya or whatever it is called and that is a sitting duck in a modern battlefield.

It also lacks the payload capacity of a CAS aircraft.

To be clear I think the Su-25 that flys in when needed to hit point targets that stop ground forces or might stop ground forces and fly in and strike with rockets and bombs and cannon fire and then leave is a useful system.

It does not fly over the front line looking for targets to shoot, because that is simply too dangerous in anything except COIN operations.

In that case then with an optical drone finding targets and the CAS aircraft merely delivering the ordinance then releasing glide bombs from 30km away and 10-15km altitude would make sense and improve the safety levels of the aircraft.

Eliminating the requirement to find the targets for itself means the CAS role itself becomes bomb truck and missile truck for standoff weapons, so a light fighter aircraft or a high flying drone of the S-70 type start to make sense.

Higher flying drones with improved day night optics and perhaps MMW and/or AESA radar arrays might allow recon from 20km plus altitudes which would only be under threat from heavy long range air defences which are expensive and not possessed by enemy forces in large numbers.

Used in ambush mode they might get a few shoot downs, but likely not hundreds of kills and such drones could be produced in large numbers.

Such sensor packages could also be fitted to airships over friendly territory monitoring drones and threats and enemy forces in friendly areas too.

All these systems will generate enormous volumes of data which can then be used by weapon platforms to start dealing with enemy threats and targets.

AI will help with the enormous volumes of data and turning it into real time target information for battle maps to share locations of enemy and friendly forces.

I would say the best solution to enemy drones will be airburst cannon shells and LIDAR based sensors and MMW radars to detect targets over short distances plus similar sensors in the sky to look down and eliminate dead ground around targets. Lasers and mini missiles and air to air drones could be used to further reduce the threat but the threat will never be eliminated.

Anti tank missiles don't mean the end of tanks and anti aircraft missiles don't mean the end of aircraft.

I think there is still room for the Su-25 as it is a solid rugged fast light aircraft that is effective in the right situations with the right equipment and weapons.

I think perhaps a two seater model has potential too for operating with helicopters and drones and cooperating with ground forces... maybe the AESA radar they are making for the Ka-52K naval helicopter might be a useful addition to a Su-25 upgrade too.

Maybe that little EO turret of the Ka-52 together with the nose mounted MMW AESA radar with the 30mm cannon of the Su-25 angled downwards by 20 degrees to keep the shells well clear of the nose mounted sensors would allow ground strafing without going into quite a steep dive... maybe articulated guns that can depress by 45 degrees to hit targets at low altitude without needing to go into a dive... the very high rate of fire would allow short bursts without diving at all...

And no, you CANNOT upgrade an existing Su-25 at T/TM either as they were brand new planes based on the UTB version not modernization of older ones.

The improved equipment could be added to anything though, and I would say by now the electronics and systems are not only rather smaller and lighter, but also probably cheaper by now... remember the TM upgrade is from the 1990s and didn't have a decent thermal channel... the Shkval-M was LLLTV... currently they are using colour digital video technology that is much cheaper and much higher performance... and less sensitive to bright light interference... and can be used during the day without being damaged.