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49 posters
Indian Su-30MKI: News
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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Join date : 2012-04-02
Location : India || भारत
- Post n°351
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
Astra MK-II BVR missile utilises a dual-pulse rocket motor. A technology that it shares with the IAF MR-SAM, Akash-NG and RUDRAM-1/NGARM missiles, the latter also being an ejector launched missile.
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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Location : India || भारत
- Post n°352
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
AI upgraded cockpit of Su-30MKI
GarryB, flamming_python and Belisarius like this post
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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- Post n°353
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
Indian Air Force equipping Su-30 MKIs with Rampage air-launched Ballistic Missile in order to effectively target, and evade Chinese HQ-9 SAMs.
https://www.iai.co.il/p/rampage
https://www.iai.co.il/p/rampage
Belisarius likes this post
TMA1- Posts : 1194
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- Post n°354
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
Israel makes good kit. Seems the kh--31 can do similar but then again I dont know the specifications of this new missile. From what I gather the older kh-59 kazoo is similar in that it is only ins/gps/glonass guided.
Sujoy likes this post
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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- Post n°355
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
TMA1 wrote:Israel makes good kit. Seems the kh--31 can do similar but then again I dont know the specifications of this new missile. From what I gather the older kh-59 kazoo is similar in that it is only ins/gps/glonass guided
The only reason that I can think of why an air launched Ballistic missile is being used instead of an ALCM is probably the cost factor.
Ballistic missiles tend to be cheaper than cruise missiles.
TMA1 likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 40537
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- Post n°356
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
Solid rocket fuel is more expensive and weighs four time more as it requires and oxidizer.
Ballistic missiles only make sense if the actively manouver to evade interceptions it approaches the target.
Ballistic missiles only make sense if the actively manouver to evade interceptions it approaches the target.
Tolstoy and TMA1 like this post
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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- Post n°357
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
DRDO's Advanced Self Protection Jammer (ASPJ) Pods for Su30MKI. Based on Active Phased Array (APA), Ultra Wide Band DRFM & inbuilt cooling system.
Will be installed on Su30MKI wing tip stations 11 & 12 in a LH & RH configuration.
This pod is for providing protection to the aircraft against ground based acquisition radars, fire control radars, airborne multi mode radars etc
Will be installed on Su30MKI wing tip stations 11 & 12 in a LH & RH configuration.
This pod is for providing protection to the aircraft against ground based acquisition radars, fire control radars, airborne multi mode radars etc
flamming_python and TMA1 like this post
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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- Post n°358
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
India's MoD has cleared the procurement of 12 new Su-30MKI. Some of the indigenous systems that they will get:
- Next Gen RWR
- Indigenous IRST
- Indigenous Missiles like Astra Mk-II
- EW Suite
- ASPJ
- DFCC
GaN AESA is still under development for Su-30MKI, won't be present in these units.
- Next Gen RWR
- Indigenous IRST
- Indigenous Missiles like Astra Mk-II
- EW Suite
- ASPJ
- DFCC
GaN AESA is still under development for Su-30MKI, won't be present in these units.
GarryB, TMA1 and Broski like this post
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
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- Post n°359
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
India to acquire 230 engines for its Su-30MKI fleet from Russia at a cost of USD 2.5 billion
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/defence-ministry-to-sign-rs-21000-cr-deal-for-230-sukhoi-jet-engines/articleshow/112532904.cms?from=mdr
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/defence-ministry-to-sign-rs-21000-cr-deal-for-230-sukhoi-jet-engines/articleshow/112532904.cms?from=mdr
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2653
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- Post n°360
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
https://www.analisidifesa.it/2024/11/lindia-rinuncia-ai-motori-russi-al-41f-1s-per-i-suoi-sukhoi-su-30mki/
Machine translates from Italian
This however means that the new Su-30-MKI that India is going to produce in the near future will probably have the older Bars Radar and not the Irbis radar of the Su-35 (which will go also on the Su-30SM2), as the newer radar needs higher electrical power than what is available from the AL-31FP.
Unless Russia is proposing a modernisation/variant of the AL-31 with higher electrical power generation.
Hopefully India will not complain later that the russian products are old and not latest generation.
Machine translates from Italian
India to ditch Russian AL-41F-1S engines for its Sukhoi Su-30MKIs
November 15, 2024 Maurizio Sparacino
Rosoboronexport, the Russian defense export agency, has proposed that India upgrade its Su-30MKI fighter aircraft by installing the AL-41F-1S engine, the same powerplant as the Sukhoi Su-35 multirole combat aircraft and the upgraded version of the Su-30SM known as the Su-30SM2 .
A proposal aimed at upgrading the Indian Su-30MKIs considering the qualities of the engine with higher thrust, lower fuel consumption and other improvements. However, New Delhi declined the proposal deciding to retain the current AL-31FP engine, apparently to retain the current infrastructure and logistics built around this engine for which the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) have vast experience in maintaining it along with large stocks of spare parts and trained personnel.
The transition to the AL-41F-1S would require significant investments not only in the acquisition of high-performance engines, but also in upgrading existing infrastructure in addition to additional costs for personnel training and maintenance.
Given the budget constraints notoriously present in the Asian country, the switch to the new engine is not financially possible, at least not in the immediate future. On the other hand, as reported last month by Analisi Difesa , New Delhi has also given the green light to a major deal for the production of 240 AL-31FP engines for its Su-30MKI fighters over the next eight years.
https://www.analisidifesa.it/2024/10/lindia-acquistera-240-motori-al-31fp-per-i-sukhoi-su-30mki/
The engines will be procured from HAL at a total cost of over Rs 260 billion (about $3.1 billion), with deliveries expected to begin from 2025 and under the terms of the contract to be completed within eight years. The AL-31FPs will thus be manufactured at HAL’s Koraput facility and will feature 54% Indian-made components with the remainder being manufactured by Russia’s Salyut (for a value of about $1.14 billion).
In 2021, Russia's United Engine Corporation (UEC) signed an agreement in India on the transfer of licenses for the production of AL-31FP engines to the aircraft manufacturing company HAL under the so-called “Make in India” program.
This collaboration on the one hand strengthens India's self-sufficiency in defense production, on the other hand it enhances the operational capabilities of the IAF without mentioning the maintenance of the strategic relationship with Russia. Last but not least, it is worth mentioning the recent modernization program of a first maxi batch of 84 Indian Su-30MKIs worth 7.5 billion dollars.
The ambitious plan aims to significantly expand the capabilities of the Indian Su-30MKIs by making them more lethal in air-to-air combat and air-to-ground operations, including the integration of advanced technologies such as modern radars, avionics and long-range weapons.
This however means that the new Su-30-MKI that India is going to produce in the near future will probably have the older Bars Radar and not the Irbis radar of the Su-35 (which will go also on the Su-30SM2), as the newer radar needs higher electrical power than what is available from the AL-31FP.
Unless Russia is proposing a modernisation/variant of the AL-31 with higher electrical power generation.
Hopefully India will not complain later that the russian products are old and not latest generation.
caveat emptor- Posts : 2024
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- Post n°361
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
They are planning to install their own indigenous AESA radar along with Israeli avionics when they start to upgrade their Sukhois.
As for the engine, they still might get it, as this might be strategy to get lowest possible price.
As for the engine, they still might get it, as this might be strategy to get lowest possible price.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2653
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- Post n°362
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
I reply here because it is partially off topic for the su 57 thread.
By the way, does anyone has some info on how does the new indian AESA radar prototype compare to the irbis radar of Su-35 and Su-30 SM2?
From what i can read here It should be able track more targets than the irbis, but nothing is clear about the detection range against various RCS levels.
That is normally a function of the radiating power, Independently from the fact that the Indian Virupaksha prototype radar is a AESA while the Irbis is a PESA, and since Irbis requires more electric power than that available in the SU-30 SM or MKI it should mean that Irbis has better detection capabilities (even if it was not capable of traking the same number of targets).
Finally normally India tends to overstate own capabilities while understating the ones from other systems (especially russian), so I would take the content of that interview you linked with a grain of salt.
https://sputniknews.in/20240805/indias-virupaksha-radar-to-revolutionise-su-3omki-fighter-jets-7961976.html
According NIIP's product specification, the Irbis-E (Hybrid PESA) radar can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at a time and attack up to 8.
Instead apparently the Byelka AESA radar of the Su-57 has instead the ability to track 60 targets and shoot 16 targets in the air simultaneously, or engage up to four targets on land at the same time.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180318140143/http://www.niip.ru/catalog/aviatsionnoe-naprvlenie/rlsu-irbis/
Maybe in the future Russia could even put the Byelka radar on a su-35 mid life modernisation.
As far as I understand that radar is not fully operational yet. A prototype has been installed on a Su-30MKI, but that is all.Sujoy wrote:
The Virupaksha radar now being installed on the Su 30MKI makes it the most formidable aircraft in the subcontinent that can easily match the Chinese J-10 and Su-35.
https://sputniknews.in/20240805/indias-virupaksha-radar-to-revolutionise-su-3omki-fighter-jets-7961976.html
By the way, does anyone has some info on how does the new indian AESA radar prototype compare to the irbis radar of Su-35 and Su-30 SM2?
From what i can read here It should be able track more targets than the irbis, but nothing is clear about the detection range against various RCS levels.
That is normally a function of the radiating power, Independently from the fact that the Indian Virupaksha prototype radar is a AESA while the Irbis is a PESA, and since Irbis requires more electric power than that available in the SU-30 SM or MKI it should mean that Irbis has better detection capabilities (even if it was not capable of traking the same number of targets).
Finally normally India tends to overstate own capabilities while understating the ones from other systems (especially russian), so I would take the content of that interview you linked with a grain of salt.
https://sputniknews.in/20240805/indias-virupaksha-radar-to-revolutionise-su-3omki-fighter-jets-7961976.html
"It should be noted that India is already at an advanced stage in the development of the Virupaksha radar and LRDE is about to fit the prototype of this radar on the Sukhoi-30MKI combat aircraft," Group Captain (Retd) Uttam Kumar Devnath, an IAF veteran, told Sputnik India on Monday.
He highlighted that Virupaksha was an upscaled version of the Uttam Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that has already been installed on the LCA Tejas and hence, it is expected to track, detect, and monitor targets at a much longer range with far better accuracy.
"During trials, it has been able to track 64 to 100 targets simultaneously. Furthermore, it is vital for an Air Force pilot to launch multiple air-to-air missiles and Virupaksha radar has been successful in controlling, maneuvering, and steering six missiles at a target concurrently in air-to-air attack mode," added Devnath, who served as the head of the material-management group at the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) during his long stint in the Indian Armed Forces.
The expert reckoned that if successive trials show similar results, it is quite probable that the IAF would ask HAL to equip the Su-30MKIs with the Virupaksha radars
According NIIP's product specification, the Irbis-E (Hybrid PESA) radar can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at a time and attack up to 8.
Instead apparently the Byelka AESA radar of the Su-57 has instead the ability to track 60 targets and shoot 16 targets in the air simultaneously, or engage up to four targets on land at the same time.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180318140143/http://www.niip.ru/catalog/aviatsionnoe-naprvlenie/rlsu-irbis/
Tactical and technical characteristics
Air-to-Air mode: - detection range of targets with RCS = 3 m2 – 350 km Coverage area: - elevation: ± 60 degrees; - azimuth: ± 120 degrees. Number of detected and tracked targets - 30 pcs. Number of simultaneously engaged aerial targets - up to 8 pcs. Air-to-Surface mode: - mapping with a synthetic aperture with a resolution of 3 meters; - mapping with a real beam in the DOL mode; - selection of moving ground targets; - tracking of up to 4 ground targets; - tracking of one ground target while maintaining airspace coverage
Maybe in the future Russia could even put the Byelka radar on a su-35 mid life modernisation.
zardof likes this post
sepheronx- Posts : 8847
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- Post n°363
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
There would be no point to add N036 radar to the Su-35 over its Irbis-E. Mainly because it wouldn't be able to fully utilize.
The AESA on the Su-30MKI may or may not be beneficial over what it already has. Mainly because they may not be able to fully utilize it. As said, Su-30MKI's engines are not sufficient for beyond what, 5KW of total power output so the T/R modules would only have that to work with.
The question also remains is: how many T/R modules are there and what are they rated at? Russia back in 2013 had tested T/R modules that were 30W each in quad packs. Exceeding their initial 5W modules used in the Zhuk-A radar. Now they been making GaN modules of around 30W for quite some time for their 5G systems and other subsystems. So there is possibility they are using those for N036 hence why it took as long as it did to field a AESA radar for mass production. But in the grand scheme of things, it all depends on how much the cost vs benefits are.
Su-30MKI is a great platform but in order to really take advantage of the subsystems, it needs new engines with much higher power output.
Irbis-E is just a powerhouse of 20KW total power output that could see 400KM for a 3M^2 target. N036 is essentially an AESA variant of it. So its output is roughly the same so its detection and tracking ranges will be the same. Just some additional benefits like more targets tracked and LPI mode which isn't that special and still easily detectable.
The AESA on the Su-30MKI may or may not be beneficial over what it already has. Mainly because they may not be able to fully utilize it. As said, Su-30MKI's engines are not sufficient for beyond what, 5KW of total power output so the T/R modules would only have that to work with.
The question also remains is: how many T/R modules are there and what are they rated at? Russia back in 2013 had tested T/R modules that were 30W each in quad packs. Exceeding their initial 5W modules used in the Zhuk-A radar. Now they been making GaN modules of around 30W for quite some time for their 5G systems and other subsystems. So there is possibility they are using those for N036 hence why it took as long as it did to field a AESA radar for mass production. But in the grand scheme of things, it all depends on how much the cost vs benefits are.
Su-30MKI is a great platform but in order to really take advantage of the subsystems, it needs new engines with much higher power output.
Irbis-E is just a powerhouse of 20KW total power output that could see 400KM for a 3M^2 target. N036 is essentially an AESA variant of it. So its output is roughly the same so its detection and tracking ranges will be the same. Just some additional benefits like more targets tracked and LPI mode which isn't that special and still easily detectable.
GarryB- Posts : 40537
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- Post n°364
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
My understanding is that electric generators are attached to the drive shaft of the jet engine to convert the rotational energy of the jet turbine into electrical energy.
Improvements in takeoff power can be as simple as improved efficiency generators attached to the jet engines.
There was a test of jamming platforms for the Russian AF and it came down to an Il-76 and a Tu-22M3 aircraft type.
In terms of jamming the Tu-22M3 offered the chance of flying with supersonic aircraft and strike and strategic bomber types, while the Il-76 had more room for jamming equipment.
In the end it came down to the fact that generators on four 12 ton high bypass engines generate more electrical energy and the Il-76 had more room for bigger more powerful jamming systems than the two 25 ton thrust engines of the Tu-22M3.
An electric generator is merely an electric motor so new electric motor technology is going to improve generator efficiency and performance over time.
Improvements in takeoff power can be as simple as improved efficiency generators attached to the jet engines.
There was a test of jamming platforms for the Russian AF and it came down to an Il-76 and a Tu-22M3 aircraft type.
In terms of jamming the Tu-22M3 offered the chance of flying with supersonic aircraft and strike and strategic bomber types, while the Il-76 had more room for jamming equipment.
In the end it came down to the fact that generators on four 12 ton high bypass engines generate more electrical energy and the Il-76 had more room for bigger more powerful jamming systems than the two 25 ton thrust engines of the Tu-22M3.
An electric generator is merely an electric motor so new electric motor technology is going to improve generator efficiency and performance over time.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2653
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- Post n°365
Re: Indian Su-30MKI: News
Electric output is not for granted. Even for something which would not require to go over the maximum electricity produced by the standard engine you may need to modify the accessory gearbox because the higher electricity spikes can damage it. And in many cases the electrical generators was designed several decades ago and no real models for the transfer from electrical to mechanical loads. Some of the bigger radar aircrafts have large and heavy capacitors to cope with the problems, but it is not always an option, while in other cases you can try to either redesign the accessory gearbox and use different electrical generators.GarryB wrote:My understanding is that electric generators are attached to the drive shaft of the jet engine to convert the rotational energy of the jet turbine into electrical energy.
Improvements in takeoff power can be as simple as improved efficiency generators attached to the jet engines.
There was a test of jamming platforms for the Russian AF and it came down to an Il-76 and a Tu-22M3 aircraft type.
In terms of jamming the Tu-22M3 offered the chance of flying with supersonic aircraft and strike and strategic bomber types, while the Il-76 had more room for jamming equipment.
In the end it came down to the fact that generators on four 12 ton high bypass engines generate more electrical energy and the Il-76 had more room for bigger more powerful jamming systems than the two 25 ton thrust engines of the Tu-22M3.
An electric generator is merely an electric motor so new electric motor technology is going to improve generator efficiency and performance over time.
For the future many new aircraft engines are going to be planned differently, and with a higher electrical output (and already taken into account in the engine performance optimisation). For some engines they are also planning starter /generator directly attached to the LP spool, like this patent
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120133150A1/en
Currently most engines are instead started by a relatively lightweight air turbine starter, which is attached to the accessory gearbox (the air turbine rotates at high speed/low torque, so it needs a gearbox to set the high torque and (relatively) low speed needed to start the engine.
The compressed air (pneumatic energy) is provided by either a ground generator (usually combined in a truck) by the APU (a smaller gas turbine installed in the aircraft) or by the other engine (if already started).
An electric starter generator was in the past not considered because the electrical output needed was much less than the power needed by an electric starter, requiring so a much heavier device than a separate electrical generator + a lightweight pneumatic air starter, but it could be instead a very good options in case much more electric power is needed.