Mistral News thread

Gates is clearly an expert on the Soviet Union shame he is still stuck in the cold war.

Gates also described Russia to Morin in blunt terms, saying that “Russian democracy has disappeared and the government was an oligarchy run by the security services.”

The irony is that he could be talking about the US.US democracy has disappeared ad the government is under the control of big business and is run by the banking system like goldman sachs. They own the media and their enormous contributions to the only two political parties in the US means it doesn't matter which party has control of any part of the US government the policies seem very much the same.

France hopes to complete Mistral deal with Russia soon
RIA Novosti

03:23 08/12/2010

PARIS, December 8 (RIA Novosti) - The French government hopes to complete a deal to sell two Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia soon, a French government spokesman said.

Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) and France's shipbuilder DCNS signed an agreement last month to form a consortium, in a move that may bring the pending helicopter carrier deal closer to completion. The consortium is the most likely winner of a Russian tender to build two Mistral-class helicopter carriers.

"The negotiations are underway, they are making good progress and we are optimistic," the spokesman said. "I think both sides are determined to pursue the goals set by Presidents Dmitry Medvedev and Nicolas Sarkozy in March."

The French official added that no decisions on Mistral are expected to be made during French Prime Minister Francois Fillon's visit to Moscow on Wednesday.

Russia and France are currently in talks on a 2+2 scheme, whereby Russia will buy one or two French-built Mistrals and build another two at home. The contract is expected to be inked before the end of the year.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-101208-rianovosti05.htm

Mistral deal seals Russia-France special relationship
RIA Novosti

20:17 15/12/2010 RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik - The general purpose Mistral-class amphibious assault ship (LHA) has been officially declared the winner of a tender held by Russia's Defense Ministry, Chief of the General Staff Nikolai Makarov told reporters. No one expected any other result - the purchase of this Mistral-class LHA, licensed to be built in Russia, is more of a political move, part of the special Russia-France relationship, than it is a defense technology decision.

Long history

The issue of purchasing a Mistral-class LHA was first raised early in 2009. In fall 2010, the Defense Ministry opened a tender for just such a ship. Initially, the ministry planned to acquire one Mistral-class ship and then, with French assistance, to build three more at Russian yards under license. The final terms of this future contract are not being revealed as yet, but it is known that France put a different proposal on the table - two ships to be built at French yards and two in Russia.

The contract will be a definite landmark on the global arms market. First, because of its price - building four ships is set to cost over 1.5 billion euros, and, secondly, because Russia has, until now, been avoiding such large foreign military purchases, only sourcing components and technologies abroad.

One of the main reasons why the ministry turned to overseas suppliers is, many experts hold, the far from ideal condition of Russia's shipbuilding research, development and production sector, which, following the collapse seen in the 1990s and early 2000s, does not have the capacity to design and build ships in the required quantities on a fast turnaround. This situation can and must be remedied, but this remedy will take a long time, while time is the very thing that Russia's aging fleet lacks.

The overwhelming majority of ships in service are to be written off in the next 10 to 15 years, while the lead time for a new ship is no less than 10 years.

In some cases, Russia already has new projects for the construction of lead ships and is planning to launch series production. In this instance, however, Russia does not have a ready-made project for a ship of this class - Project 11780 was drawn up 25 years ago, has aged badly and is desperately in need of renovation. If this decision is made now, the earliest the navy will receive a lead ship will be 2020, while if the contract is concluded before yearend, a French ship could join the fleet as early as 2014. By 2020, one or two Russian-built ships would also be available.

Where will the Mistral serve?

It looks likely that the first ships of this class will be supplied to the Pacific fleet. The Defense Ministry also mentioned such plans, and reliable sources suggest that the basic infrastructure for these ships is under preparation in the Far East.

The deployment of this kind of vessel to the Pacific has every justification. The Asia-Pacific Region is increasingly becoming the focus of attention for the world's leading countries. It is the center of interests for such key players as Russia, the United States, China, Japan and India, because it concentrates the world's fastest developing economies and almost half the planet's population.

Clearly, naval theaters of operation, above all near Africa and South East Asia, will only gain in importance over the next few years as maritime trade, shelf development and fisheries all expand. The significance of oceans adjoining Russia is also set to increase - especially in the Far East, where the economic potential of local waters and shelf exists in close proximity with inter-governmental disputes - primarily over the Korean peninsula and regarding the Kuril Islands.

Stationed near the Kurils, a Mistral and similar ships could serve as a mobile base, providing effective support for troops stationed on remote islands. The equipment carried by a Mistral-class vessel can provide effective guidance to a disparate array of forces, even including ground units.

In addition, a Mistral-class ship can, like other ships in the same class, fulfill a wide range of other duties: from anti-piracy operations to search-and-rescue missions. A squadron of warships led by an LHA is capable of engaging in a low intensity localized conflict by landing troops and supporting them from the sea and air.

Not Mistral alone

The Mistral's value lies not so much in the ship itself as in the technology involved both in its construction and in upgrading Russia's shipbuilding by adopting new processes, equipment, etc. In this context, the clauses of the contract specifying the nature of French assistance take on particular weight. This assistance is described in some considerable detail, down to the precise number of workers and engineers to undergo training in France and the improvements to be made at shipyards selected to construct the Russian LHA.

According to the available information, St. Petersburg's Baltiisky Zavod (Baltic Shipyard) will build ships under French license. The Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk is overstretched as it is, and Russia has no other shipyards with the capacity to build ships of this size and displacement.

The purchase of a Mistral-class LHA seals the future of Baltiisky Zavod. It is clear that the construction of a series of LHAs rules out the relocation of the yard from Vasilyevsky Island to the other bank of the Neva River at least in the next ten years. In the long term, this issue is likely to be solved by upgrading.The views expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2010/12/mil-101215-rianovosti04.htm

Take a virtual tour of Mistral BPC... pretty cool

http://jdb.marine.defense.gouv.fr/SERVEUR/index.html

French DCNS to supply Russia four UDC

MOSCOW, Dec. 23. (ARMS-TASS). French shipbuilding association DCNS, producing a series of ships "Mistral," concluded the agreement with Russia on the delivery of four amphibious assault ships (UDC). This was reported by Dow Jones, "referring to the publication in the French newspaper La Tribune."

The contract is estimated at 2 billion euros, said the newspaper citing a source close to the negotiations, and another source in the French embassy in Moscow.

Two of the four helicopter will be built in France, others - in St. Petersburg, leads the PRIME-TASS data "Tribune."

_____________

Looks like France got exactly what they wanted.

And Russia has got what it needed too.

These vessels... although they are called helicopter carriers would actually form the command core of a battle group use to secure islands like the Kuril Islands.

The investment in them shows the Russians will defend a naval attack in the Pacific whether it comes from China or Japan.

At the end of the day the main focus was getting these vessels into service quickly and this is what is happening. Any follow on class will not be needed for some time but when they are needed the quality of ship building in Russia should have improved to the point where external sources are not even considered.

Not going to happen over night, but this is a step in the right direction.

Lithuanian defense minister says Russian-French warship deal 'mistake'

RIA Novosti

04:56 28/12/2010

VILNIUS, December 28 (RIA Novosti) - Lithuanian National Defense Minister Rasa Jukneviciene said France's decision to build Mistral-class helicopter carriers jointly with Russia was 'a mistake.'

A consortium comprising French DCNS and Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) won a tender last week to build amphibious assault ships for Russia. At the initial stage, two Mistral-class helicopter carriers will be built jointly by France and Russia with another two to be constructed later in Russia.

"I think this is a mistake. I assess [the situation] mainly from the political point of view, not from the military one. It's clear that two ships are unable to cause a serious shift in the balance of forces in this region, but it sets up a precedent when a member state of NATO and the EU sells offensive weapons to a third country," she said.

Russia has been in talks with France on the purchase of Mistral-class warships on a 2+2 scheme whereby Russia will buy one or two French-built Mistrals and build another two under license at home.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, up to 70 armored vehicles including 13 battle tanks, and 450 personnel.

The Russian military has said it plans to use Mistral ships in its Northern and Pacific fleets.

bs.


YES! Cry all you want Liuthanians!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-101228-rianovosti02.htm

...but it sets up a precedent when a member state of NATO and the EU sells offensive weapons to a third country," she said.

Yes, of course... no member state of NATO or the EU has ever sold offensive weapons to countries not in NATO or the EU.

I guess US sales of weapons to Japan and South Korea and Israel and Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Jordan and lots of other states that are not part of NATO or the EU have never happened.

Another good reason to buy Mistral carriers... because the Anti Russian countries within NATO and the EU wont like it...

Russia to pay over 700 million euros for first Mistral helicopter carrier - source

RIA Novosti

08:21 30/12/2010

In-Depth Coverage MOSCOW, December 30 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will pay France approximately 720 million euros for its first Mistral-class helicopter carrier for its Navy, a source close to the negotiations process told RIA Novosti on Thursday.

At the initial stage, two Mistral-class helicopter carriers will be built jointly by France and Russia at the STX shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, France. Another two will be constructed later at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg.

"The cost of the first ship will be 720 million euros, the second will cost 650 million euros," the source said.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy last week over the phone that France had won the tender to build amphibious assault ships for Russia. The winner is a consortium comprised of French DCNS and Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), the Kremlin press service said.

The first Mistral-class ship is expected to be built within 36 months after Russia makes an advance payment scheduled for January 2011.

Russia had previously held talks with France on the purchase of Mistral-class warships on a 2+2 scheme whereby Russia would buy one or two French-built Mistrals and build another two under license at home.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, up to 70 armored vehicles including 13 battle tanks, and 450 personnel.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-101230-rianovosti01.htm

720m euros is a rip off. The first one won't even be built here. The 550m price tag won't be until we get to number 4 made in Russia.

I think its a great deal... great because you will be able to get 2 ships at somewhat higher price, but you will be able to save money on Research and development, and possibly gonna give start to many new ideas within russian construction bureaus...

On top of that it will be good for diplomacy...

One question though... In which fleet will those ships operate in ???

I am guessing that the extra cost will be for all the modifications the Russians want.

Their helos are heavier for example and the armament will be different etc etc.

The second carrier is cheaper because hopefully all the problems have been sorted with the first.

The third will likely be more expensive because the shipyard will need to retool and upgrade etc etc.

The fourth will be cheaper, but the costs of the third and fourth will be largely going into the Russian economy in wages and shipyard upgrades.

Remember licence production is NOT cheap.

In addition to buying something you are also buying the right to make them and the technologies needed to make them.

That isn't free.

Personally I think Australia should take note and ask for an two Mistrals be built for them... complete with Ka-52 choppers...

Hoof wrote:

One question though... In which fleet will those ships operate in ???

Pacific, Black Sea and North Fleet will get the first carrier.

Well... maybe they will be expensive, but I think it will be pretty unique for Russian navy.. its both helicopter carrier and a landing ship... Russian navy is also building Ivan Gren landing ship, which is similar in capacity stuff it can carry, but doesn't have ability to carry helicopters...

Just think... All those helicopters will be pretty handy during landings... when you have gunships supporting landing troops and also transport helicopters that can drop off reinforcements and evacuate wounded... Sounds like a mobile base almost...

The command capabilities and hospital facilities will make this an excellent vessel to mount operations from and from memory they were talking about the Baltic fleet specifically with Kaliningrad (spelling) in mind and the Pacific Fleet with the Kiril Islands in mind. They mentioned that a Mistral in the Black sea would have speeded up things, but I think they have enough bases close by and enough reach for anything Georgia might pull.

Not that we can take their word as set in concrete a Navy official said something like 2 in the Pacific Fleet and 2 in the Baltic, though I think that in 10-15 years time they might want them in the Northern Fleet to protect Russias northern resources from poachers so to speak.

GarryB wrote:The command capabilities and hospital facilities will make this an excellent vessel to mount operations from and from memory they were talking about the Baltic fleet specifically with Kaliningrad (spelling) in mind and the Pacific Fleet with the Kiril Islands in mind. They mentioned that a Mistral in the Black sea would have speeded up things, but I think they have enough bases close by and enough reach for anything Georgia might pull.

Not that we can take their word as set in concrete a Navy official said something like 2 in the Pacific Fleet and 2 in the Baltic, though I think that in 10-15 years time they might want them in the Northern Fleet to protect Russias northern resources from poachers so to speak.

well... you're right, it would probably be better to have those in open ocean, instead of in a sea... If there are so many bases near those seas, Air support shouldn't be a problem- there will be frontal aviation and helicopter force at nearby bases... and if not, i'm sure it wouldn't take much to move a unit from one base to another one near the front...

On other hand, Mistrals could be used in more distant locations and serve as sort of mobile bases, that able to provide some kind of support... now, only if there were more full size carriers, then troops would be able to achieve air superiority over the the landing zone... if not, then those helicopters wont be in the air for long...

If there is a natural disaster in Cuba or Venezuela or another one in Myanmar such a vessel would be most useful.

It would be excellent PR and would probably lead to a lot more non-western countries looking to Russia as a real alternative to US or European relations.

It is the sort of global reach the UK enjoyed for centuries and helped it maintain an enormous empire.

Not suggesting Russia should start doing what the UK did, but there are advantages of having real global reach... being able to send forces where ever you need them. Not to bully but to help and defend/support.

The biggest reason why the russians want this ship is to get top of the line NATO tech for testing and see how it compares with theirs.

No, I think the main reason the Russians want the Mistral is that their naval forces are not in a good state and the shock surprise of the conflict in Georgia made them realise that something similar could happen with Japan and the Kiril Islands and to a lesser extent in Kaliningrad.

Buying a Mistral was the fastest shortcut to getting a command ship with helo, armour landing capacity, and onboard hospital facilities to support a major landing operation or to control Islands.

As an added bonus they will get a shipyard upgraded and retooled and making 2 modern proven ship designs that should lead to further work for that shipyard to basically rebuild the Russian navy to something more modern and capable.

The C4IR gear on the Mistrals will be interesting to the Russians, but the Russian Navy already reportedly has fairly modern kit in that regard including the SIGMA system that seems able to do the job. In this respect the Russian Navy is much better off than the Russian Army, but the Russian Navies problems stem from years of neglect and of course the fact that a Navy needs a lot more horsepower per man to operate means they are more negatively effected by neglect than the Army is.

Russia and France agree assault ship deal amid Nato unease



by Marcus Papadopoulos
Friday, January 7th, 2011
Russia and France have concluded a groundbreaking deal by which the Russian navy will acquire two French-built Mistral amphibious assault ships – with a further two to be built under license at St Petersburg. The deal has raised concern among some Nato members, including the United States. It is the first time since the Second World War that Russia has received advanced Western military technology.

After a year of negotiations between Moscow and Paris, Russian President Dmitri Medvedev announced that Russia would purchase two Mistral ships for $750 million each from DCNS shipbuilders in France while Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation will build another two at the Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg.
The Mistral has the capacity to transport and deploy 16 helicopters, 70 armoured vehicles, 4 landing craft and 900 soldiers. Experts believe the Russian navy’s ability to prosecute war will rise considerably as a result of the the deal. Indeed, Admiral Vladimir S Vysotsky, commander-in-chief of the navy, said that Georgia would have been defeated “within 40 minutes” in its war with Russia in 2008 had the Mistrals been available then.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the lavish defence budgets Russian generals had previously enjoyed, the navy became the most neglected arm of the Russian military. But since Vladimir Putin came to power, the navy has begun receiving substantial aid in an attempt to restore it to its former glory.

The strengthening of the navy through the acquisition of the Mistrals has raised alarm in the United States, where policymakers fear the Russians will discover state of the art Nato naval technology. US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has expressed his disquiet to French officials and the House of Representatives submitted a resolution urging France not to do the deal with the Russians. It argued: “Given Russia’s increasingly aggressive actions and rhetoric, the sale of major advanced weaponry and offensive military equipment, such as naval warships, to the Russian Federation could have a destabilising effect on the Baltic and Black Sea regions and on other parts of the former Soviet region and Eastern Europe.”

Unease was also expressed by Lithuania, a former Soviet republic which, along with the two other Baltic states of Latvia and Estonia, has warned of “Russian territorial designs” in the region.

In a separate development, Prime Minister Putin announced that a staggering $640 billion would be spent on modernising the Russian armed forces. Mr Putin said: “We need to finally move beyond the years during which the army and the navy were seriously under-funded.

It argued: “Given Russia’s increasingly aggressive actions and rhetoric, the sale of major advanced weaponry and offensive military equipment, such as naval warships, to the Russian Federation could have a destabilising effect on the Baltic and Black Sea regions and on other parts of the former Soviet region and Eastern Europe.”

Aggressive actions?

Putting down an internal insurrection in its southern republics and defending its own nationals from an invasion from western supported Georgia is hardly aggression.

In comparison how many countries has the US sent troops to in the last two decades since the end of the cold war?

Perhaps a more aggressive Russia could be a good thing.

GarryB wrote:

It argued: “Given Russia’s increasingly aggressive actions and rhetoric, the sale of major advanced weaponry and offensive military equipment, such as naval warships, to the Russian Federation could have a destabilising effect on the Baltic and Black Sea regions and on other parts of the former Soviet region and Eastern Europe.”

Aggressive actions?

Putting down an internal insurrection in its southern republics and defending its own nationals from an invasion from western supported Georgia is hardly aggression.

In comparison how many countries has the US sent troops to in the last two decades since the end of the cold war?

Perhaps a more aggressive Russia could be a good thing.

I know the hypocrisy is just killing me

Looking for the pier and escort

The Navy of Russia began to determining the place of distribution of two helicopter type "Mistral", which will be purchased from France. Representatives Glavkomata Navy visited the base of the Northern and Pacific fleets, which examined the conditions for the placement of ships.

Members of the commission, visited Vladivostok, reported that the first helicopter be sent to the main base Tofa only after there is a complex of works on preparation of appropriate infrastructure. It was acknowledged that the Mistral in Vladivostok and Severomorsk (the second helicopter will join the Northern Fleet) will require not only special piers, but also in providing anti-submarine and air defense, which would require the escort of frigates and corvettes.

Built on the French shipyards ships will engage in landing, peacekeeping and rescue operations. In addition, the helicopter can be used to combat pirates in the Indian Ocean.

Meanwhile, Russia's only aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" is forced to stand idle in the factory dock near Murmansk, as the other staff does not hold.

Multipurpose amphibious assault ship Mistral-class "is designed to transport troops and cargo, amphibious landings, serving as a headquarters ship. His standard displacement - 16,5 thousand tons, full - 21,3 thousand, filling the dock - 32,3 thousand tons. Length - 199 meters, width - 32 meters, depth - 6.2 meters. Full speed - 18,8 node, range - up to 19.8 thousand miles. The crew - more than 180 people.

Vladimir79 wrote:Looking for the pier and escort

The Navy of Russia began to determining the place of distribution of two helicopter type "Mistral", which will be purchased from France. Representatives Glavkomata Navy visited the base of the Northern and Pacific fleets, which examined the conditions for the placement of ships.

Members of the commission, visited Vladivostok, reported that the first helicopter be sent to the main base Tofa only after there is a complex of works on preparation of appropriate infrastructure. It was acknowledged that the Mistral in Vladivostok and Severomorsk (the second helicopter will join the Northern Fleet) will require not only special piers, but also in providing anti-submarine and air defense, which would require the escort of frigates and corvettes.

Built on the French shipyards ships will engage in landing, peacekeeping and rescue operations. In addition, the helicopter can be used to combat pirates in the Indian Ocean.

Meanwhile, Russia's only aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" is forced to stand idle in the factory dock near Murmansk, as the other staff does not hold.

Multipurpose amphibious assault ship Mistral-class "is designed to transport troops and cargo, amphibious landings, serving as a headquarters ship. His standard displacement - 16,5 thousand tons, full - 21,3 thousand, filling the dock - 32,3 thousand tons. Length - 199 meters, width - 32 meters, depth - 6.2 meters. Full speed - 18,8 node, range - up to 19.8 thousand miles. The crew - more than 180 people.

Wonder, what are their plan for "Kuznetsov" ??? hopefully we will see some major upgrades implemented =)

Well that confirms it, the Pacific fleet Mistrals are for operations in and around the Kiril Islands to deter Japanese actions, the deployment to the Northern fleet suggests they want to protect their northern areas... perhaps protect oil assets and exploration?

@Hoof there are lots of comments and speculations about the upgrade the Kuznetsov is going to get... they mainly suggest the removal of the 12 vertical launch Granits and a hangar extension to allow for more aircraft, and also include suggestions that a change in propulsion might be considered and that this might lead to catapults being fitted. Personally I think nuclear propulsion would be beneficial and that new EM cats will allow for the development of the one aircraft the Kuznetsov really needs... a Yak-44 or at least a modern equivalent AWACS aircraft.

Certainly a carrier like Kuznetsov with fighters (Mig-29Ks) and anti sub helos (maybe a new helo to replace the Ka-32s?) would certainly be a good way to support a Mistral but in managing a campaign where island hopping is involved then the 16 helos and armour of the Mistral would offer capabilities the Kuznetsov could not.