Mistral News thread

Mistral talks stumble over sensitive technology
RIA Novosti

14:25 06/05/2011

MOSCOW, May 6 (RIA Novosti) - Talks between Russia and France on the purchase of Mistral class helicopter carriers have come to a dead end over Russia's demands on the transfer and licensed production of sensitive electronics, a Russian defense industry source said on Friday.

Mistral class ships are equipped with a NATO-standard SENIT-9 naval tactical data system and SIC-21 fleet command system. France is strongly opposed to delivering the SENIT-9 to Russia with a production license, and apparently does not want to deliver the SIC-21 at all.

"The Russian side wants to get all advanced technologies together with the ship...and the future of the contract totally depends on whether France would agree to part with these systems," the source said.

The official confirmed that talks were tough-going and their format was constantly changing.

Russia completely replaced its team of negotiators on May 5 hoping to change the course of the talks by literally starting from scratch.

Experts believe that the controversial issues of such a highly-publicized and politically-charged deal could be resolved only through a compromise between the Russian and French leaders.

Russia and France in January signed an intergovernmental agreement to jointly build two Mistral-class helicopter carriers at the STX shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, France. Another two are planned to be constructed later at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of carrying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, 70 armored vehicles, and 450 personnel.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110506-rianovosti02.htm

The deal will be signed in two weeks.

I am really looking forward to seeing this vessel in the water covered in Ka-52s and filled with Naval Infantry...

Sarkozy says the sign date is June 21st.

The talk so far has been of the Ka-226 and Ka-52 helos operating from the Mistrals... I rather suspect that they will use the traditional Ka-29 for troop transport roles as it is a compact aircraft that can carry armament when needed and would carry more troops than any similar Russian transport helo. The Mi-17/-8 series being too big, while the new Ka-60 is probably on the small side... not to mention that without a folding tail it would take up a lot of room in a hangar.

The Ka-29 on the other hand is a compact box that is quite efficient for transporting troops.

Of course the Ka-226 has potential with its transport pods... makes me think of thunder birds... perhaps they could design a pod that the Ka-226 can carry to the combat area and detach the pod which is a light vehicle with its crew already inside... perhaps facing backwards when mounted on the helo with guns able to be fired when attached to the helo to protect the rear of the helo as it takes off...

Or perhaps it could carry a pod that is an unmanned land vehicle... tracked or wheeled, that operates with infantry units on foot patrol. It could have a light weapons package like a 30 cal machinegun with a few thousand rounds of ready to fire ammo plus an automatic grenade launcher for fire support. It could have a recon package that includes day and night vision equipment on an extendible arm that can be raised up to look over cover and terrain to find targets. It could have a built in audio system that detects shots and determines where the shots came from and the type of weapon being used etc. It could even have a small helicopter based UAV that can be launched to flank enemy positions to find weak spots.
The vehicle could also carry the heavy packs of the soldiers on patrol plus food and water supplies and of course extra ammo.
It could be rigged to carry stretcher patients too.

It could operate with the unit, or be delivered by helo when needed.

Delivering it by Ka-226 with the troops arriving in Ka-29s with air support provided by Ka-52s it would be a useful force in combat.

In disaster relief roles the weapons could be removed and the ammo replaced with survival stuff like tents and inflatable rafts, with food and water carried in larger volumes. The stretcher recovery capability would still be useful and the observation stuff and heli UAV could also be used... in the case of floods it might be useful to have an inflatable raft design for the land vehicle to be mounted in to move around in flooded areas.

Exclusive: France signed the sale of four helicopter carriers to Russia

11/06/2011

Paris and Moscow on Friday signed the agreement sealing the sale of four buildings Projection and Command (BPC) Mistral type in the Russian Navy.

Finally, good news for the French arms industry downing a major milestone contract for several months. While several issues remain mired in the intricacies of the negotiations (modernization of Indian Mirage 2000, Rafale sale to the UAE and Brazil, frigates in Greece and Brazil), France on Friday signed with Russia, according to our information, the contract sale of four buildings Projection and Command (BPC) Mistral type. Success to make the asset teams DCNS, which won the contract after the submarine in Brazil, makes a pretty new boom to exports.

These buildings will be equipped (without transfer of technology, according to our information) Operating System Naval Tactical Information (SENIT 9), on which Paris and Moscow have been protracted negotiations. The first two examples are built for 1.2 billion euros by the shipyard in Saint-Nazaire (STX), while the other two PCBs will be built by OSK, the Unified Group of Russian shipbuilding associated with French subcontractors.

As revealed in mid-May, "La Tribune", the Russian prime minister will come June 21 in Paris, specifically at the Paris Air Show, to formalize the agreement between France and Russia. In early May, sources close of negotiated revealed in "The Tribune" that Russia and France were close to a settlement. While noting that "the environment in Russia remains difficult. The struggle for influence in Moscow around the deal were not helped negotiate. The dismissal by the president of a leading Russian negotiators of the contract, Vice-Admiral Nikolai Borisov, who had approached the French positions, and had somewhat slowed the talks.

But beyond these setbacks, the trend remains to the contract, which was announced by President Nicolas Sarkozy in December 2010. "Everything will depend on the attitude of the Russians at the G8 summit in late May in Deauville, we then explained to" La Tribune ". But come late May at the G8 summit of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in Deauville actually allowed Nicolas Sarkozy to give a boost to negotiations on the sidelines of the summit. And announced May 26 that France and Russia had reached a final agreement on the supply of four Russian navy helicopter carrier Mistral type, or PCBs.

Michel Cabirol

La France vend le Mistral � la Russie

This is excellent news... not just for the Russian Navy, and the French and Russian ship builders, but also for Kamov and the Naval Infantry.

Deploying the first two vessels to the Pacific Fleet should deter the Japanese from doing anything like what Georgia did in 8 8 8 no matter what their economy is like in 5 years time.

DCNS says first export of Mistral deal includes TOT

New international success for DCNS with the BPC

DCNS today signed a contract with Russian defence export agency Rosoboronexport under the Franco-Russian intergovernmental agreement of 25 January for the supply of four Mistral/BPC-type force projection & command vessels. The contract signed today calls for two Mistral/BPC ships and associated services including initial logistics, training, and the transfer of technologies. It was signed at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum at a ceremony attended by Dmitry Medvedev, the President of the Russian Federation.

For this contract, DCNS will act as prime contractor and will also integrate the operations direction and communication systems. The shipbuilding of platforms will be subcontracted to the STX shipyard at Saint-Nazaire in western France assisted by Russian shipbuilder OSK. A subcontract has been signed by STX and OSK.

The sale of these two vessels to Russia represents more than 1,000 full-time jobs in France over a period of four years.

The first ship will be delivered to Russia in 2014, three years after the contract’s coming into force. The second BPC will be delivered in 2015.

This is the first international success for the Mistral/BPC design in service with the French Navy. On the international market, this ship is known as a landing helicopter dock or LHD.

I wonder if this will have a positive effect or a negative effect on future potential sales of the helicopter carrier?

I guess once it is in Russian service the export potential should improve because France could potentially offer the carrier with Russian helos and vehicles as an option for those that look more to Russian than to the west.

U.S. congresswoman says Russian-French Mistral deal threatens U.S. security

the chairwoman of the U.S. House of Representatives' Foreign Affairs Committee has said.

"It is deeply troubling that France, a NATO ally, has decided to ignore the clear danger of selling advanced warships to Russia even as Moscow is taking an increasingly hostile approach toward the U.S., its neighbors, and Europe itself," Ileana Ros-Lehtinen said in a statement.

Russia and France signed a $1.7 billion (1.2 bln euro) contract on two Mistral class ships for the Russian Navy in St. Petersburg on Friday.

In line with the contract, the first warship is to be delivered in 2014 and the second in 2015. The warships will be equipped with Russian weapon systems, Navy chief Adm.Vladimir Vysotsky said.

French President Nicolas Sarcozy hailed the contract as a sign of strategic partnership between the two countries.

So much for the reset...

The funny thing is that Georgia is complaining yet they have already said the first two will go to the Pacific fleet to help prevent Japan doing to the Kuriles what Georgia did to South Ossetia. The other two will likely be deployed to the Northern Fleet to protect potential oil and mineral reserves in the arctic.

GarryB wrote:I wonder if this will have a positive effect or a negative effect on future potential sales of the helicopter carrier?

I guess once it is in Russian service the export potential should improve because France could potentially offer the carrier with Russian helos and vehicles as an option for those that look more to Russian than to the west.

If we like it, India would probably go for it as they have an RFP out for 4 landing ships too.

France transfers sensitive warship technology to Russia

RIA Novosti

16:42 20/06/2011 LE BOURGET (France), June 20 (RIA Novosti) - France has transferred to Russia all the technology it asked for under a $1.7-billion deal for two French-built Mistral class amphibious assault ships for the Russian Navy, a Russian arms exporter said on Monday.

Under the deal signed on Friday, the first warship will be delivered in 2014 and the second in 2015.

"The French side has transferred all technologies, including the Zenit-9 [command and control] system, as well as two other systems," said Anatoly Isaikin, head of the Rosoboronexport state-controlled arms exporter.

A formal contract for the construction of the two Mistral class ships will be signed separately at a later date, he said, adding it could take up to three months to compile.

The warships will be equipped with Russian-built Ka-52 Alligator multirole helicopters, Isaikin said.

Navy chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said on Friday, the warships will be provided with Russian weapon systems, including amphibious landing assets and carrier aviation.

The use of Mistral class ships will significantly increase the effectiveness of humanitarian operations, he said, adding that they could be used both in peacetime and in wartime for a variety of missions.

The program has alarmed Russia's neighbors, especially Georgia.

Russia and France in January signed an intergovernmental agreement to build two Mistral class helicopter carriers at the STX shipyard in Saint-Nazaire, France. Another two are planned to be constructed later in Russia.

Contract talks stumbled over Russia's demand for the transfer of sensitive electronic systems.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of carrying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, 70 armored vehicles, and 450 personnel.

France has two Mistral class amphibious assault ships in service and is building a third.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2011/06/mil-110620-rianovosti04.htm

If we like it, India would probably go for it as they have an RFP out for 4 landing ships too.

And being French there would be fewer strings attached than there were with that US Navy landing craft they bought.

From memory the US reserved the right to board her at any time to check she wasn't going to be used for a landing operation against Pakistan and there were a few other annoying conditions of her use I can't remember now.

Of course for the Indians it means experience with a landing craft which should be very valuable for them in deciding what sort of features they want or don't want in a new design.

The use of Mistral class ships will significantly increase the effectiveness of humanitarian operations, he said, adding that they could be used both in peacetime and in wartime for a variety of missions.

Humanitarian Ops for which it would be ideal, with a 100 bed hospital, plus plenty of helicopters and vehicles to deliver aide.

It would also mean if Japan tries anything like what Georgia did in 8 8 8 then the Russian forces will be much better prepared.

The port facilities and support will need to be upgraded to take full advantage of these vessels but that is only another bonus for the region that needs investment.

The amusing thing is that Georgia is alarmed... Two Mistrals in the Pacific Fleet and two Russian built Mistrals with strengthened hulls to handle icy conditions in the Northern Fleet will have little bearing on Georgia at all.

News that Georgia is alarmed at the deal is like hearing the Burglar and thief is upset that the people he has preyed on are buying alarms and deadbolts and firearms to protect themselves.

One for Mistral , Ka-52 Sea Alligator seen at IMDS-2011

Wow... if they make them that small they will get thousands in each Mistral!!!!


Sorry Austin... could not resist.

What is the real navy tech abilities of russia,,is they got mistral coz of financial prob. or coz of complex tech that they can't manufacture it...

i remembered that project 11780

The problem was that there was no design on the design boards yet and to design a new helicopter carrier from scratch with the capabilities of Mistral would have taken a decade if you include at least one competing design and of course individual testing and then competitive testing it would have been a long and expensive exercise.

The impulse behind the purchase is the Kirile Islands and how vulnerable they are to Japanese attack. This was brought into focus by the unexpected attack on South Ossetia by Georgia and also the international reaction to that.

Lets face it, a cowardly attack during the opening ceremony of the Olympic games and the western world was happy to paint Russia as the aggressor despite all the evidence to the contrary.

If the Japanese had some more economic problems like an Earthquake and nuclear meltdown and some slump in export sales a radical government could get into power and make things much worse but try to retain power by taking the Kurile Islands back by force the way the Argentine government did in 1982 with the Falkland Islands.

America is constantly starting wars to take domestic attention away from the economy... or scandal in the white house.

If everything goes to plan they will have state of the art tested vessels in service by 2014 or so plus they get to build two modified vessels themselves so their shipyards will be getting work anyway... plus all the shipyard infrastructure to support these vessels in the far east and a few larger vessels will be needed to support their operations.

In many ways they are a clear indication that the Russian Navy will not be a Brown Water Navy (ie a river based navy).

In addition to that it is perhaps possible that potential future sales of Mistral might include Russian items like Ka-52s and Ka-226s and Ka-29s.

The two Russian built Mistrals will have hulls strengthened to operate in ice... perhaps such vessels might also appeal to Canada or scandinavian countries within NATO too... sourced from France obviously though.

Russia to sign deal for 2 more French warships by yearend

RIA Novosti

17:24 07/09/2011 MOSCOW, September 7 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will sign a contract with France for the third and fourth Mistral-class amphibious assault ships before the end of this year, Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Wednesday.

"I believe we should complete the negotiating process and have these contracts signed before the end of the year," he said.

The two new warships will be built in Russia, he added.

Russia is also buying related technology and has two crews being trained in France, the minister said.

Russia and France signed a $1.7 billion (1.2 bln euro) contract in June on two French-built Mistral class amphibious assault ships for the Russian Navy, which includes the transfer of sensitive technologies.

The helicopter carriers are due to enter service with the Northern and the Pacific fleets in 2014 and 2015.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of carrying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, 70 armored vehicles, and 450 personnel.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2011/09/mil-110907-rianovosti01.htm

It is good to sign them early before the Frogs raise the prices like they do to India.

I hope as the first export deal for the Mistral they will want to make it as smooth as possible to encourage other potential customers.


2014 isn't that far away... I am quite looking forward to seeing what weapons systems they adopt for it... they would tend to put more capable weapons on such vessels than western countries would, but the risk there is that if you put too much on it loses its focus and becomes less of a helicopter carrier and more of a mini destroyer.

The Mistral itself has HMG positions and MANPADS launchers and the Russians certainly have their equivalents to these systems in the form of 14.5mm HMGs or 23mm cannon mounts, and the Gibka Igla launcher, but I would suspect they will also fit the latest version of Kashtan in the form of the Pantsir-S1 with long range missiles and with guns fitted this system has grown from Kashtan-M to a system that has similar performance to a Kashtan and Klintok system combined in terms of altitude and range performance of the missiles, and on a vessel like Mistral its lack of stealth is not so much of a burden.

The thing is that for some newer more stealthy boats such a system will not be so wonderful and the solution is not so obvious as its two stage missiles are not ideal in a vertical launch system because of the two stage nature of the missiles themselves.

Perhaps a vertical launch system with a catapult system attached to the bottom of the missile with side facing rockets that can fire and turn the missile in the direction it needs to travel before the main booster ignites and accelerates it towards its target?

The radar and optical sensors can be mounted high on the mast to give much better visibility and full 360 degree coverage, while the gun component could be moved to several Duet turrets around the ship.

I have seen on a smaller patrol vessel a grad launcher with a turret in the centre and two large doors on either side from which complete 20 round pallets rise up and attach to the turret so that a full load of 40 rockets is ready to launch. It is not clear what happens to the empty pods but reloads are relatively quick to allow a high rate of fire.
The addition of a retractible turret could be used for a Pantsir like system that can be stowed away or covered when not in use to make it stealthy that way.

France starts building first warship for Russia - DCNS

RIA Novosti

20:38 30/11/2011 PARIS, November 30 (RIA Novosti) - French shipbuilder DCNS has received advance payment from Moscow under a $1.2-billion contract and will start the construction of the first warship for the Russian Navy, the DCNS press service said on Wednesday.

The two countries signed a contract in June on two French-built Mistral class amphibious assault ships including the transfer of sensitive technology.

“The advance payment was received several weeks ago and work on the first ship is getting underway,” the service said. “The first ship will be delivered in 2014 and the second in 2015.

Construction of the second ship should start in several months and will proceed simultaneously with the first, but will depend on when the full payment for the first ship is made, a DCNS source said.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of carrying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, 70 armored vehicles, and 450 personnel.

A number of Russia's neighbors have expressed concern over the deal, in particular Georgia and Lithuania.

The Russian military has said it plans to use Mistral ships in its Northern and Pacific fleets.

Many Russian military and industry experts have questioned the financial and military sense of the purchase, and some believe that Russia simply wants to gain access to advanced naval technology that could be used in the future in potential conflicts with NATO and its allies.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2011/11/mil-111130-rianovosti05.htm

Regarding the Russians wanting new high tech electronics... from what I have heard the Sigma C4IR system is actually very good already and adding the NATO system would be more of a pain than a benefit.

Of course they are paying slightly more than full price so I would assume they will expect to get everything.

I suspect the 100 bed state of the art hospital facilities and surgery will have very high tech equipment, which will add value to the vessel in the support role.

BTW while thinking about altering the Pantsir-S1 to operate like the new naval Grad system with pallet loaded missiles for potentially making the Pantsir-S1 more stealthy (ie when targets are detected one or more pallet can be raised and pointed at the appropriate direction to fire missiles and then retracted for low RCS), I suddenly realised that the new missiles for Pantsir-S1 have been unified with the Hermes surface to surface missile that in its larger ground based model has a range of up to 100km with a 30kg payload and terminal guidance options.

This means that they could combine an air defence system with a land attack system that can either defend the vessel from air attack or be used against ground targets a significant distance away. They could use disposable pallets that can be raised and aimed using specialist small cranes that can also assist in the loading and unloading of the pallets. Pallets can be made disposable or reloadable depending on how much space was needed/available. Part of mission planning could include deciding the ratio of SAMs and SSMs pallets to load, with perhaps the option for more pallets in stores.

The vessel is a flat deck so it could have a vehicle on board that can pick up and aim pallets with a connection to the fire control system.

Stealth is not so important to the Mistral as it would be for a smaller vessel of course.

Russia to build hulls for 2 Mistral-class warships

Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation and the Baltiisky Zavod shipyard signed a 2.5 billion ruble ($80 million) contract on Friday to build hulls for the third and fourth French Mistral-class warships for the Russian Navy.

The signing ceremony took place in the presence of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

French shipbuilder DCNS said on Wednesday it had received advance payment from Moscow under a $1.2-billion contract and would start the construction of the first warship for the Russian Navy.

Russian defense officials previously said Russia would account for 80% of labor inputs in building the third and fourth warships.

The two countries signed a contract in June on two French-built Mistral class amphibious assault ships including the transfer of sensitive technology.

The first ship will be delivered in 2014 and the second in 2015.

Construction of the second ship should start in several months and will proceed simultaneously with the first, but will depend on when the full payment for the first ship is made, a DCNS source said.

A Mistral-class ship is capable of carrying 16 helicopters, four landing vessels, 70 armored vehicles, and 450 personnel.

A number of Russia's neighbors have expressed concern over the deal, in particular Georgia and Lithuania.

The Russian military has said it plans to use Mistral ships in its Northern and Pacific fleets.

Many Russian military and industry experts have questioned the financial and military sense of the purchase, and some believe that Russia simply wants to gain access to advanced naval technology that could be used in the future in potential conflicts with NATO and its allies.

http://www.en.ria.ru/world/20111202/169255665.html

I think Mistral should get a naval version of Mi-38 medium helicopters. Ka-29 i think is obsolete and can only carry 14 marines.