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If they do hand over the ships they would need a face saving way of doing it....for eg after a comprehensive peace deal.
I don't think it would happen while the war is going on
I don't think it would happen while the war is going on
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Mistral News thread
Cyberspec- Posts : 2904
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Admin- Posts : 2926
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Join date : 2009-07-10
Cyberspec wrote:If they do hand over the ships they would need a face saving way of doing it....for eg after a comprehensive peace deal.
I don't think it would happen while the war is going on
The world is run on compromises, France is getting in tight with GCC which is anti Iran while the US plays softball. They get us to hurt Iran in exchange for our ships. The world does not revolve around Crimea.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
Points : 40989
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
The problem I have with those pricks is that none of them... the EU or the US care very much for the people of the Crimea and the Ukraine... this is all about sticking it to Russia...
The only funny thing is that in trying to stick it to Russia they handed the Crimea back to them... Ha ha ha... they threw lemons at Putin and Putin made some lemonade...
The only funny thing is that in trying to stick it to Russia they handed the Crimea back to them... Ha ha ha... they threw lemons at Putin and Putin made some lemonade...
rtech- Posts : 21
Points : 23
Join date : 2014-12-12
France needs Russia’s approval to sell Mistral warships’ - Russia's arms chief
http://rt.com/news/257209-mistral-france-russia-rogozin/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS
France won’t be able to sell the ill-fated Mistral warships, which were initially built for Russia, without permission from Moscow, Dmitry Rogozin, Russia’s deputy prime minister, said.
“Without our permission they can’t sell anything,” Rogozin told the media, adding that he had already explained the situation to the French side.
According to Rogozin, Russia has an end-user certificate for the stern parts of the vessels.
http://rt.com/news/257209-mistral-france-russia-rogozin/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS
France won’t be able to sell the ill-fated Mistral warships, which were initially built for Russia, without permission from Moscow, Dmitry Rogozin, Russia’s deputy prime minister, said.
“Without our permission they can’t sell anything,” Rogozin told the media, adding that he had already explained the situation to the French side.
According to Rogozin, Russia has an end-user certificate for the stern parts of the vessels.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Of course... the rear halves of both vessels were made in Russian shipyards...
type055- Posts : 101
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Join date : 2014-09-03
Some vioces from China medias say ,China should buy Mistals, If France dares to sell. though China has its own project ,Mistal is expensive.
this will be a start point to break embargo, It's good for both China and EU. EU want to sell, China want to buy, EU only fears US pressure
France fleet recently show China their newest Mistal. It's first time that Mistal visit China. Maybe it is a sign.
If without embargo, China will be No.1 importer in world market for sure. It's time to test France's courage.
The money we spend will be worthy.
I think it's a good idea, but it all depend on Eu's courage and wisdom
Russia can get their money back and some compensation from France.
max steel- Posts : 2930
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Join date : 2015-02-13
Location : South Pole
Russians got their money back except penalties . Russia agreed not to impose it . Btw do China need those mistral ships ? If they are building their own then whats the need .
And where is Canada ? They were crying out loud we will buy those mistrals dont sell them to russians . Maple Syrupers
And where is Canada ? They were crying out loud we will buy those mistrals dont sell them to russians . Maple Syrupers
GarryB- Posts : 40489
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
If the US doesn't want France to sell NATO secrets to Russia why would they let them sell to China?
If France had given Russia the money back I think we would already know what Frances decision was in regard to the vessels.
If France had given Russia the money back I think we would already know what Frances decision was in regard to the vessels.
type055- Posts : 101
Points : 106
Join date : 2014-09-03
GarryB wrote:If the US doesn't want France to sell NATO secrets to Russia why would they let them sell to China?
If France had given Russia the money back I think we would already know what Frances decision was in regard to the vessels.
1 US don't forbid Mistral deal when Rus-france signed the agreement. After Ukraine event, they jump out
2 From geopolitics view， Ru is near EU， China is far far away from them.
3 even with embargo, Eu sold a lot of dual-use products to China, they clearly want China market.
only problem is US pressure
ExBeobachter1987- Posts : 441
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Join date : 2014-11-27
Age : 36
Location : Western Eurasia
Mistral deal cancellation may cost France up to 5 billion euros — reports
PARIS, May 14. /TASS/. The cancellation of a deal on delivering Mistral-class helicopter carriers to Russia may cost France some 2 billion or 5 billion euros, the French weekly Le Point reported on Thursday.
"Instead of bringing the French shipyards corporation DCNS the profit of 1.2 billion euros and its contractors some 890 million euros, the cancellation of the deal may cost France approximately 2-5 billion euros due to non-performance of the contract," the report says.
According to the report, now the French and Russian sides "have significant differences in regard to compensational payments" in case of the non-performance of the contract. "France is trying to return Russia the sum less than 890 million euros that has already been paid earlier," it says.
On May 16, the period of force majeure circumstances that allowed a temporary delay in the handover ends and Russia will get the full right to demand compensations for the non-performance of the contract, the report says.
Under the contract, Russia was expected to receive the first of the two warships, the Vladivostok, in the autumn of 2014. However, Paris suspended the ship’s handover to Russia at the very last moment over Moscow’s stance on developments in neighboring Ukraine.
It was planned that the second ship dubbed the Sevastopol would be handed over to Russia in the second half of 2015. But the deal was suspended like in the case with the first Mistral ship.
http://tass.ru/en/economy/794591
sepheronx- Posts : 8823
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Join date : 2009-08-06
Age : 35
Location : Canada
France sent Russia proposals for cancelling the Mistral contract
flamming_python- Posts : 9516
Points : 9574
Join date : 2012-01-31
The French think they can dictate terms to Russia.
They not only have the audacity to refuse to repay the amount Russia already paid them in full, but they're also trying to make that repayment conditional on Russia allowing them to resell the vessel to someone else!
And this, after Russia generously agreed to not press compensation claims as permitted by the terms of the contract!
Completely disrespectful and audacious behaviour. They have evidently mistaken Russia's generosity for weakness. They thought that since Russia decided not to press for compensation; that it means that it can't.
Like some poor African country, the French think they can rip-off Russia and not lose any money.
Russia is under no obligation whatsoever to allow the resale of its military technology/materials.
France however is under an obligation to return the money it was paid by Russia and in FULL, INCLUDING the money Russia spent on producing the hull-sections.
They not only have the audacity to refuse to repay the amount Russia already paid them in full, but they're also trying to make that repayment conditional on Russia allowing them to resell the vessel to someone else!
And this, after Russia generously agreed to not press compensation claims as permitted by the terms of the contract!
Completely disrespectful and audacious behaviour. They have evidently mistaken Russia's generosity for weakness. They thought that since Russia decided not to press for compensation; that it means that it can't.
Like some poor African country, the French think they can rip-off Russia and not lose any money.
Russia is under no obligation whatsoever to allow the resale of its military technology/materials.
France however is under an obligation to return the money it was paid by Russia and in FULL, INCLUDING the money Russia spent on producing the hull-sections.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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Wow... the balls on those guys... we return 785 million Euros in return for your consent for us to sell the two ships you ordered to anyone else we choose to sell them to...
I would demand 5 billion dollars in compensation and demand the ships are cut up for scrap.
I would demand 5 billion dollars in compensation and demand the ships are cut up for scrap.
KoTeMoRe- Posts : 4212
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Location : Krankhaus Central.
GarryB wrote:Wow... the balls on those guys... we return 785 million Euros in return for your consent for us to sell the two ships you ordered to anyone else we choose to sell them to...
I would demand 5 billion dollars in compensation and demand the ships are cut up for scrap.
Nope, I would demand the ships AND compensation for delay. Remember these ships are stuck because of the joint building nature of the contract.
Blocking these ships like that costs money to the French and costs money to DCNS. They have to bleed for that.
Russia is on its own right here, let's not spoil the fun.
flamming_python- Posts : 9516
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KoTeMoRe wrote:GarryB wrote:Wow... the balls on those guys... we return 785 million Euros in return for your consent for us to sell the two ships you ordered to anyone else we choose to sell them to...
I would demand 5 billion dollars in compensation and demand the ships are cut up for scrap.
Nope, I would demand the ships AND compensation for delay. Remember these ships are stuck because of the joint building nature of the contract.
Blocking these ships like that costs money to the French and costs money to DCNS. They have to bleed for that.
Russia is on its own right here, let's not spoil the fun.
Good point, if they're not serious about making a deal than Russia can simply refuse it and refuse to give permission for a resale; let the ships rot in port for a few years.
With those $5 mil a month maintenance fees, the French might be motivated to start making serious and fair offers.
If the French get angered and ultimately refuse to pay Russia back the money its owed then fine - simply skim that amount off any Russian state debts or the debts of Russian state companies to France.
Russia holds the cards here, really.
Kyo- Posts : 494
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French proposals on termination of Mistral contract don't suit Russia - media
This is going to be a two-sided bargaining, just as in a tennis play.
"The option with the return of the sum mentioned in the French proposal does not suit us at all, and Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin already informed French Defense and National Security Secretary General Louis Gautier, authorized to hold talks on their part, of that."
This is going to be a two-sided bargaining, just as in a tennis play.
Admin- Posts : 2926
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If France is really going to keep them then all they are required to do is return the $800 million we spent. All the International Courts are run by the EU so forget a ruling in our favour as they would just call it nullified as if it never happened.
sepheronx- Posts : 8823
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Vladimir79 wrote:If France is really going to keep them then all they are required to do is return the $800 million we spent. All the International Courts are run by the EU so forget a ruling in our favour as they would just call it nullified as if it never happened.
That is fine, but if Russian courts with the signed contracts state that otherwise (which it does), then Russia can strip it from Frances investments in Russia, which has dwindled significantly anyway, so they can just take it from their assets. US and others do it all the time.
George1- Posts : 18513
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Results of Consultations Between Russia, France on Mistral Expected by June
Deputy director from the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation said that Paris and Moscow are holding consultations over the situation of the Mistral-class helicopter carrier ships that were not delivered to Russia and expect to reach an agreement by the end of May.
LIMA (Sputnik) – Paris and Moscow are holding consultations over the situation of the Mistral-class helicopter carrier ships that were not delivered to Russia and expect to reach an agreement by the end of May, a deputy director from the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation told RIA Novosti on Friday.
“Consultations are being held currently with France on settling the situation within the frameworks of agreements reached between the presidents of Russia and France. We’re expecting results at the end of May,” Anatoly Punchuk said.
He said that the negotiations process on the Mistrals are being held with mutual understanding and are showing some positive trends.
“According to our assessments, the French side is set on a mutually acceptable solution to the situation at hand,” Punchuk added.
Russia and France struck a $1.5-billion deal for two Mistral-class ships in 2011. The first ship was scheduled to be handed over to Russia in November 2014, but the ceremony was postponed. French President Francois Hollande halted the delivery, citing Moscow's alleged interference in the Ukrainian crisis.
Russia has repeatedly dismissed allegations of involvement in the Ukraine conflict as groundless and criticized France for not executing its contractual obligations.
On April 22, Hollande said Paris would refund Moscow in the event of non-delivery of the warships.
Earlier on Friday, the Russian Kommersant newspaper reported that Paris has sent proposals to Moscow on terminating the contract. According to the proposals, Paris will pay back $865 million if Russia consents to authorizing the sale of the ships to a third party.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150515/1022165551.html#ixzz3aEblleED
Deputy director from the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation said that Paris and Moscow are holding consultations over the situation of the Mistral-class helicopter carrier ships that were not delivered to Russia and expect to reach an agreement by the end of May.
LIMA (Sputnik) – Paris and Moscow are holding consultations over the situation of the Mistral-class helicopter carrier ships that were not delivered to Russia and expect to reach an agreement by the end of May, a deputy director from the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation told RIA Novosti on Friday.
“Consultations are being held currently with France on settling the situation within the frameworks of agreements reached between the presidents of Russia and France. We’re expecting results at the end of May,” Anatoly Punchuk said.
He said that the negotiations process on the Mistrals are being held with mutual understanding and are showing some positive trends.
“According to our assessments, the French side is set on a mutually acceptable solution to the situation at hand,” Punchuk added.
Russia and France struck a $1.5-billion deal for two Mistral-class ships in 2011. The first ship was scheduled to be handed over to Russia in November 2014, but the ceremony was postponed. French President Francois Hollande halted the delivery, citing Moscow's alleged interference in the Ukrainian crisis.
Russia has repeatedly dismissed allegations of involvement in the Ukraine conflict as groundless and criticized France for not executing its contractual obligations.
On April 22, Hollande said Paris would refund Moscow in the event of non-delivery of the warships.
Earlier on Friday, the Russian Kommersant newspaper reported that Paris has sent proposals to Moscow on terminating the contract. According to the proposals, Paris will pay back $865 million if Russia consents to authorizing the sale of the ships to a third party.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150515/1022165551.html#ixzz3aEblleED
par far- Posts : 3496
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Join date : 2014-06-27
I really hope Russia tells France to pay the full price that Russia payed or else no deal, let the ships sit in the dock and have the dam French pay $5 million per month. If France wants to pay just $890 million or what ever, then Russia should tell them to sink the dam ships to the bottom of the ocean(better than giving it to a third party and have it used against Russian interests.
I have some questions here guys:
Who do you think the third party is? Aren't these ships designed to fit Russian equipment?
What offer will Russia make?
Would Russia consider buying this kind of ship from China? Type 81.
Will Russia just build its own ships of this kind?
Are there French assets in Russia, that Russia can strip?
I just hope Russia tells them to just sink the ships to the bottom of the ocean, you just know that they will be used against Russian interests.
I have some questions here guys:
Who do you think the third party is? Aren't these ships designed to fit Russian equipment?
What offer will Russia make?
Would Russia consider buying this kind of ship from China? Type 81.
Will Russia just build its own ships of this kind?
Are there French assets in Russia, that Russia can strip?
I just hope Russia tells them to just sink the ships to the bottom of the ocean, you just know that they will be used against Russian interests.
medo- Posts : 4343
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As I said some time ago. Russia could simply wait two years for new French president and Le Pen will deliver them. In the mean time they could start building their own ships. It's not that long period to wait.
max steel- Posts : 2930
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medo wrote:As I said some time ago. Russia could simply wait two years for new French president and Le Pen will deliver them. In the mean time they could start building their own ships. It's not that long period to wait.
La Pen as next French president . You're too optimistic medo . Europeans are washington flunkies forever .
par far- Posts : 3496
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Join date : 2014-06-27
medo wrote:As I said some time ago. Russia could simply wait two years for new French president and Le Pen will deliver them. In the mean time they could start building their own ships. It's not that long period to wait.
This is a bad idea, there are no guarantees that Le Pen becomes president of France and in two years time those ships will proably be in bad shape and France is also paying $5 million per month.
GarryB- Posts : 40489
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I first thought like you did Vlad... there is no point in taking a western country on in international courts as they are western courts, but recently Poland had a ruling against it where victims of torture were allowed to sue the Polish government for their mistreatment.
Just ignoring the amount Russia spent on these two ships they have also spent money developing and preparing the infrastructure to support the operations of these vessels which might not suit any replacement ships.
There is only one thing stopping this from being solved and that is political will from the French government... so Russia should kick up a shitstorm so in future when they have to make a choice they will make a better choice.
If Russia rolls over and just takes this then Russia loses.
Fortunately Russia has said no to the first offer, which one presumes is a refund of money paid and abandoning ownership rights to two vessels they built significant portions of.
The question is what offer will they hold out for.
Personally I would start with 5 billion in compensation without the ships being handed over, and 1.5 billion with the ships being handed over.
Just ignoring the amount Russia spent on these two ships they have also spent money developing and preparing the infrastructure to support the operations of these vessels which might not suit any replacement ships.
There is only one thing stopping this from being solved and that is political will from the French government... so Russia should kick up a shitstorm so in future when they have to make a choice they will make a better choice.
If Russia rolls over and just takes this then Russia loses.
Fortunately Russia has said no to the first offer, which one presumes is a refund of money paid and abandoning ownership rights to two vessels they built significant portions of.
The question is what offer will they hold out for.
Personally I would start with 5 billion in compensation without the ships being handed over, and 1.5 billion with the ships being handed over.
Admin- Posts : 2926
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medo wrote:As I said some time ago. Russia could simply wait two years for new French president and Le Pen will deliver them. In the mean time they could start building their own ships. It's not that long period to wait.
It isn't that simple. They want to deliver but the EU embargo prevents it. For them to break the embargo would either gain them sanctions or require to move out of the EU when they are the base member.