Mistral News thread

No-one will buy them whitout heavy loses for France. And less countries like India, Vietnam or Brazil.

France is now touting Saudis and Egypt as customers (translates to Saudi as customer, Egypt as possible end user).
Who have a history of over-paying, and are "grateful" to France's role in aiding jihadis, etc.

mutantsushi wrote:France is now touting Saudis and Egypt as customers (translates to Saudi as customer, Egypt as possible end user).
Who have a history of over-paying, and are "grateful" to France's role in aiding jihadis, etc.

Mahmoud Khalaf, an adviser at the Egyptian Nasser Military Academy, said Friday

"It is very hard to imagine that Egypt would conduct military operations in areas where helicopter carriers would be needed. Arab countries are located on the shores of the Red and the Mediterranean seas, that’s why Egypt and Saudi Arabia do not need such ships,” Khalaf told RIA Novosti.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150808/1025519204.html#ixzz3iAced0n7

A Fool Pays Twice: France Must Spend Over €1 Bln to De-Customize Mistrals

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150807/1025498803.html



France Creates Artificial ‘Hype’ Around Mistrals' Potential Buyers

http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150807/1025511629.html



Hollande Cancelled Mistral Deal Fearing EU Leaders 'Will Attack Him'

http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150807/1025512106.html

There is no technical reason Russia shouldn't be producing its own great naval turbines.
It seems it was primarily political, as well as probably beauracratic inertia who saw no need to change things that led the turbines to be continued to be produced in Ukraine.
That will all change now.

Yes... the Russians could make a gas turbine engine for ships every bit as good as the Ukrainians could... the only reason they didn't was political... they already bought a few products from Motor Sich, so it made sense to buy their gas turbines too rather than spend extra money to set up production at a Russian company like Klimov.

These sanctions however have forced Russias hand, so now at extra cost the Russians will build their own gas turbines... more money into the Russian economy and less leaving to the Ukrainian economy.

I doubt that the problem is technical, it will be manufacturing capacity, which is already at full stretch mainly making turbines for aircraft. It is the setting up of new facilities with machine tools, skilled staff etc that will take the time. Mind you, with a recession looming in the West there may be some opportunities to purchase gear there that can't be made locally in time.

Nah... the main problem was that there was not need when the new engines arrived on time and not enough political will to change that.  Buying Ukrainian engines meant sensible Ukrainians would not want sanctions against Russia... unfortunately the sensible Ukrainians were overthrown in a coup and idiot zealots got into power that make decisions based on politics rather than economics or common sense. Who would believe that the Ukrainians would be so dumb as to cut themselves off from the only market that took them seriously as a partner... now they will need to join the EU market that will see them as scum... bludging scum.

Their problem now.

But is Russia atleast doing some efforts to set up new facilities and training new skilled staff? it may take time, but at least they are going somewhere instead of doing nothing at all

For the last few years Klimov has been working with the aim of local production of Helicopter engines, and I suspect gas turbine engines would be in the same basket...

It's a buyer's market now:

''France Could Be Forced to Sell Mistrals at a Massive Discount
.............
Many experts doubt that France will be able to disperse the Mistrals promptly. "Selling someone ships these days is extremely difficult," IHS Jane's senior analyst of defense procurement Ben Moores told AFP.

The only real option France has is to offer a massive discount for the Mistrals. "They will have to seriously cut their price to make it attractive to another country," Moores added. And even in this case the deal, according to the expert, "could take years."
..............''

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150808/1025524929.html

GarryB wrote:Of course it doesn't make them best buddies... just because Russia sells them stuff doesn't mean Russia should risk anything for them, but if they want to it would be good if they actually could rather than just possibly could.

Then don't call them allies.
As trade partners, they won't replace the European countries which limits their economical importance.

GarryB wrote:You mean Russia should shape its foreign policy to avoid fulfilling the perverted beliefs of those snakes in the grass? Russia should not give them a second thought and should do what suits them when it suits them.

Needlessly pissing off neighbours and giving your enemies ammo for their narrative is stupid.

GarryB wrote:Why are they vulnerable?  We are not talking about a civilian transport ship filled with helicopters like the British used in the Falklands.

Actually, they were.
The Mistrals were built to current civilian/commercial standards.

GarryB wrote:These vessels will be military, they will be armed and they will have their own ECM and ESM system to defend themselves....

They will be under-armed for their size and rely on an escort for defense.

GarryB wrote:Most bases there are supported by the military of that country, why should the Russian bases be different?

Russia does not claim Antarctic territory and has shown little intention to claim any in the future.

Then don't call them allies.
As trade partners, they won't replace the European countries which limits their economical importance.

A country can be an economic ally without being a political or military ally.

Needlessly pissing off neighbours and giving your enemies ammo for their narrative is stupid.

Who said anything about needlessly?

I am talking about Russia forming its future policies without regard for its Baltic neighbours, not forming policy to upset them on purpose... they simply aren't that important.

Actually, they were.
The Mistrals were built to current civilian/commercial standards.

There are no ships that are invulnerable.

They will be under-armed for their size and rely on an escort for defense.

You mean like AWACS aircraft and JSTARS aircraft are totally unarmed and rely on escorts... yet NATO still buys them... funny that.

Russia does not claim Antarctic territory and has shown little intention to claim any in the future.

Russia has a presence in several places on the Antarctic continent that need to be supplied/supported.

Does anyone know the full details? Is Russia getting blue brings? Is there any technology involved?

What is Russia's game plan now, there ships similar to the mistral in the works?

What were the mistrals gonna be used for?

par far wrote:Does anyone know the full details? Is Russia getting blue brings? Is there any technology involved?

What is Russia's game plan now, there ships similar to the mistral in the works?

What were the mistrals gonna be used for?

Yes..two LHD class!  
- Priboy
- Lavina

par far u ready?  



Priboy 14,000 ton


Lavina 24,000+ ton


LHD talk here u miss out! More talk here...
Russia LHD Priboy
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p885-russian-navy-status-news-2#103194

Russia LHD Lavina
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103247

Future LHD atomic power!
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103282

Book. wrote:

par far wrote:Does anyone know the full details? Is Russia getting blue brings? Is there any technology involved?

What is Russia's game plan now, there ships similar to the mistral in the works?

What were the mistrals gonna be used for?

Yes..two LHD class!  
- Priboy
- Lavina

par far u ready?  



Priboy 14,000 ton


Lavina 24,000+ ton


LHD talk here u miss out! More talk here...
Russia LHD Priboy
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p885-russian-navy-status-news-2#103194

Russia LHD Lavina
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103247

Future LHD atomic power!
https://www.russiadefence.net/t2973p900-russian-navy-status-news-2#103282

Thanks Book.

^Tbh I don't think there's going to be any serious order on Russian equivalents of the ships anytime soon.
The cash infusion is a lot more beneficial than actually getting the ships, and even if all the money were to go to the navy (which I'm positive it won't), it would be better spent getting frigate, minesweeper and destroyer production up to speed.

That thing is literally a dusted off soviet project, isnt it?

Berkut wrote:That thing is literally a dusted off soviet project, isnt it?

Everything is a dusted off soviet project

Now they have seen the Mistral inside and out and looked at its capabilities I am sure a lot of those old Soviet designs can be brought out and modified to do what a modern helicopter carrier can do, with the advantage of Ka-52K helos and the other systems they want... hopefully however they will be better armed and protected than the Mistrals were.

Wasn't the point of the Mistral it's hybrid military/civil construction and amenability to block assembly?
I guess "modifying" a legacy design to incorporate that might be less than a fully new design, but... meh.
Question is if the hybrid/block approach and "knowledge gained" from Mistral is applied to future REAL carriers.

mutantsushi wrote:Wasn't the point of the Mistral it's hybrid military/civil construction and amenability to block assembly?
I guess "modifying" a legacy design to incorporate that might be less than a fully new design, but... meh.
Question is if the hybrid/block approach and "knowledge gained" from Mistral is applied to future REAL carriers.

It was and the ToT was completed.

France paying thru the nose for the Mistral deal... price does not include reputation and credibility losses;
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150813/1025720810/france-mistral-hollande-price-tag.html

France to pay Russia less than €1 bln for severing Mistral contact — French minister

The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion

PARIS, August 14. /TASS/. France will pay Russia less than €1 billion for non- delivery of Mistral helicopter carriers, the country’s Finance Minister Michel Sapin has told the France Inter radio station.

"The sum of payments to Russia for Mistrals will amount to less than €1 billion," he said. The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion.

The minister said the decision on the Mistral contact will be formally made at the meeting of the defense ministers’ council in late August. Further information will be announced in public.

Sapin said France’s move to cancel the contract with Moscow is "a necessary political decision" amid the conflict in Ukraine. "We consider that Russia’s position in this conflict is not positive enough," he said.

"In these conditions, the delivery of military equipment is impossible and this was a carefully thought and balanced decision," the minister stressed.

The €1.12 billion contract for the construction of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy was signed in June 2011.

Under the contract, Russia was expected to receive the first of the two warships, the Vladivostok, in the autumn of 2014. However, Paris suspended the ship’s handover to Russia at the very last moment over Moscow’s stance on developments in neighboring Ukraine.

It was planned that the second ship, the Sevastopol, would be handed over to Russia in the second half of 2015. But the deal was suspended like in the case with the first Mistral ship.The Sevastopol has undergone three series of trials in the open sea.

George1 wrote:France to pay Russia less than €1 bln for severing Mistral contact — French minister

The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion

PARIS, August 14. /TASS/. France will pay Russia less than €1 billion for non- delivery of Mistral helicopter carriers, the country’s Finance Minister Michel Sapin has told the France Inter radio station.

"The sum of payments to Russia for Mistrals will amount to less than €1 billion," he said. The minister denied the earlier report of the Le Canard enchaine weekly that claimed Paris would pay Moscow €2 billion.

The minister said the decision on the Mistral contact will be formally made at the meeting of the defense ministers’ council in late August. Further information will be announced in public.

Sapin said France’s move to cancel the contract with Moscow is "a necessary political decision" amid the conflict in Ukraine. "We consider that Russia’s position in this conflict is not positive enough," he said.

"In these conditions, the delivery of military equipment is impossible and this was a carefully thought and balanced decision," the minister stressed.

The €1.12 billion contract for the construction of two Mistral-class helicopter carriers for the Russian Navy was signed in June 2011.

Under the contract, Russia was expected to receive the first of the two warships, the Vladivostok, in the autumn of 2014. However, Paris suspended the ship’s handover to Russia at the very last moment over Moscow’s stance on developments in neighboring Ukraine.

It was planned that the second ship, the Sevastopol, would be handed over to Russia in the second half of 2015. But the deal was suspended like in the case with the first Mistral ship.The Sevastopol has undergone three series of trials in the open sea.

My link above is what the French media is reporting for the costs.

Military contract bungles by President François Hollande’s government have cost France nearly $60 billion, according to a damning report Tuesday from Boulevard Voltaire, a left-leaning newspaper based in Paris. In addition to the $2.2 billion that the failed Mistral deal with Russia is set to cost, another two fumbled contracts with India and Egypt for hundreds of Dassault Rafale fighter jets will see Paris lose an additional $57 billion.

France’s original $1.2 billion deal to build two Mistral warships for Russia was shelved in June after Paris refused to hand over the vessels because of Russia’s support for separatist rebels in Ukraine. It’s now set to cost France around $2.2 billion in compensation for breach of contract. But that failed deal is just the tip of the iceberg.

India had initially wanted to purchase 126 new Rafale fighter jets from France, but the order was reduced to less than 40 after Defense Minister Manohar Parrika complained that the outlay for the jets, parts and decades of training and refurbishment was too expensive. It now seems that the entire deal could fail as officials from France and India squabble over the final unit price for the remaining jets, according to a Reuters report.



India will instead spend $25 billion on 127 Russian T-50 fifth-generation stealth fighter jets, a far cheaper and more advanced aircraft. Russia will begin delivering the aircraft within the next 36 months.

“The biggest piece of the Indian contract has disappeared for good, since India does not want the 126 planes,” notes the Boulevard Voltaire report.

Meanwhile, France’s $5.2 billion deal with Egypt for 24 Rafale fighter jets is still going ahead, but issues with cash flow and credit in Cairo have meant that French banks are backing the deal, adding to already heavy public debts. The French economy is currently experiencing slow economic growth and is carrying debts of 98.43 percent of GDP, or $2.2 trillion.

“Though the quality of Egypt’s credit is certainly not Greek, it is clearly not excellent either,” mentions the Boulevard Voltaire report.

http://idrw.org/mistral-ships-update-failed-deals-with-russia-egypt-and-india-militaries-will-cost-france-60-billion-in-defense-contracts/

JohninMK wrote:MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The first team of Russian experts has already departed for France to discuss the timeframe for dismantling the equipment from the Mistral helicopter carriers and for signing a respective agreement, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation sector said. "The first team of specialists from Russia left for France these days to sign a deal detailing the timeframe and other technical issues for dismantling the equipment from Mistrals," the source told TASS on Tuesday.

The second Russian team is likely to come to France in early October, he said. Earlier reports said the Russian experts were expected to arrive in France in September to dismantle the equipment. Telecommunications and control systems for the two helicopter carriers were designed and manufactured by the Russian Sistemy Upravleniya corporation.

The Mistrals are used for the transportation of troops and landfall operations and are also used as command ships. Each of them can carry up to sixteen heavy-duty or thirty-two light helicopters and up to 900 soldiers with armored cars and amphibious assault boats.

How much did the French pay back for the cancellation of mistral deal with Russian dose anyone know
With the penalty

zidzu wrote:

JohninMK wrote:MOSCOW, August 25. /TASS/. The first team of Russian experts has already departed for France to discuss the timeframe for dismantling the equipment from the Mistral helicopter carriers and for signing a respective agreement, a source in the Russian military and technical cooperation sector said. "The first team of specialists from Russia left for France these days to sign a deal detailing the timeframe and other technical issues for dismantling the equipment from Mistrals," the source told TASS on Tuesday.

The second Russian team is likely to come to France in early October, he said. Earlier reports said the Russian experts were expected to arrive in France in September to dismantle the equipment. Telecommunications and control systems for the two helicopter carriers were designed and manufactured by the Russian Sistemy Upravleniya corporation.

The Mistrals are used for the transportation of troops and landfall operations and are also used as command ships. Each of them can carry up to sixteen heavy-duty or thirty-two light helicopters and up to 900 soldiers with armored cars and amphibious assault boats.

How much did the French pay back for the cancellation of mistral deal with Russian dose anyone know
With the penalty

You may not realise just how apt that question is.

A few weeks ago we had both sides saying that the (undisclosed) amount was agreed and had been paid. Now today we have this.

PARIS, August 25. /TASS/. A draft agreement regarding the size of France’s payment for the severed deal to supply Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia will be considered Wednesday, August 26, at a meeting of the French Council of Ministers, sources in the Elysee Palace told AFP.

Earlier, French Finance Michel Sapin said the size of payments France will make to Russia in connection with the termination of the contract to build and supply two Mistral helicopter carriers will be "less than €1 billion."

Later, French President Francois Hollande said during a visit to Egypt that the sum "will be less than €1.2 billion", that was the initial cost of the contract. The president explained that the exact size of payments will be reported to parliament when it considers the issue in mid-September.