Project 677: Lada class submarine

Teshub wrote:

kumbor wrote:

GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?

 We've only had them for over a century now...

@Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries.

kumbor wrote:

Teshub wrote:

kumbor wrote:

GarryB wrote:Any progress in nuclear batteries might make AIP a non issue...

Nuclear batteries? Such a thing exists physically at all?

 We've only had them for over a century now...

@Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries.

Soviet Union is advanced in RTG generators, they made some of them for space use and put it in spacecraft, some of them are made for use in lighthouses on northern passage and for radio relay stations without human crew, if my memory is well, I think they put it on a Voyager II. After brake of SU, and in times of warm period with USA, Russian send one mock up of RTG to USA and never get it back , because Senate is forbidden exporting nuclear technology in SU or Russia (funny isn't it). One of key problems with them is low power output, and SU and now Russian are looking in how to make more powerful RTG setup. Most of this work is not public and information what we know are decade old. And RTG is one of possibility's what are opened by radioisotopes decay, there is other options how to use radioisotopes for producing electricity but output is low and not economical but for special purpose is acceptable.

chinggis wrote:Soviet Union is advanced in RTG generators, they made some of them for space use and put it in spacecraft, some of them are made for use in lighthouses on northern passage and for radio relay stations without human crew, if my memory is well, I think they put it on a Voyager II. After brake of SU, and in times of warm period with USA, Russian send one mock up of RTG to USA and never get it back , because Senate is forbidden exporting nuclear technology in SU or Russia (funny isn't it). One of key problems with them is low power output, and SU and now Russian are looking in how to make more powerful RTG setup. Most of this work is not public and information what we know are decade old. And RTG is one of possibility's what are opened by radioisotopes decay, there is other options how to use radioisotopes for producing electricity but output is low and not economical but for special purpose is acceptable.    

The phrase "nuclear battery" is used for RTGs, but they are low-power devices, usually with an output of a few kW at most. They are basically a large number of thermocouples wrapped around a hot core of fuel, usually Pu238. They can run for decades without refuelling, with power levels dropping exponentially as fuel decays (the Voyager probes launched by NASA in 1977 are still functioning today after >40 years).

RTGs are great for robotic space probes, and could be applied to small ultra-long duration UUVs, but they are useless for propulsion for any practical manned vehicles or water craft.

6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

Ladas not Kalina.

My interest in the historical split is because recent history prior to the BSF 6 they had most in North & Pacific, presumably guarding SSBNs? -> may want to repeat that rather than even groups of 6.

hoom wrote:

6 new Kilos for Black Sea Fleet.
6 new Kilos for Pacific Fleet.

6 new Kalinas for Baltic Fleet?
6 new Kalinas for Nothern Fleet?

Ladas not Kalina.

My interest in the historical split is because recent history prior to the BSF 6 they had most in North & Pacific, presumably guarding SSBNs? -> may want to repeat that rather than even groups of 6.

According to soviet/russian strategy, SSKs are to be used for "bastion defence" - defence of littoral areas from which SSBNs operate, as well as for disruption of commercial routes throughout the oceans.

Back then Amiland had 150+ subs, now around 50.

kumbor wrote:@Teshub, @ Garry B, By my opinion nuclear batteries are batteries working on nuclear - atomic fission. The atom was first fissioned by Rutherford in 1935, or I am an idiot? First nuclear reactor was made for purpose of Manhattan project in early 40s. So, what are nuclear batteries to produce electricity by nuclear fission, without primary circle to heat water and without need to heat water in secondary circle and power turbine by steam. Turbine than runs E-generators. Fuel cells are not nuclear batteries.

You forgot about naturally occurring fission. It was Henry Moseley in 1912 who created the first beta cell, placing radioactive Radium inside a sphere of silver, to collect charge from the beta radiation. Here are a couple of links which you may find interesting...

https://www.facebook.com/iaeaorg/posts/he-was-the-inventor-of-the-first-atomic-battery-and-the-first-scientist-to-give-/10153885328662062/

http://www.rexresearch.com/nucell/nucell.htm

Alpha and Beta-voltaics are not great at high current applications, but are more energy efficient than RTGs, have greater energy density than electro-chemical cells, and decades long lifespans. There was an article circulating sometime back in June which discussed recent Russian research into radioactive nickle betavoltaic batteries.

Rutherford split the atom in about 1917 or so and was largely responsible for exploring and identifying the parts of an atom.

Rather important New Zealander he is... much like Sir Edmund Hillary.

They are and have worked on a wide range of nuclear power generation systems from rather small up to rather large... large to power ships or major land based power generation, but also small for use in satellites and space stations and colonies on other planets where solar is not so reliable...

..the Russian naval department today announced that the work on the submarines of the project 677 will be continued in greater volume than previously planned.
That is, much more submarines will be built than planned.
Project 677 submarines are low-profile hybrid submarines capable of carrying up to 18 Caliber missiles and anti-submarine torpedoes.
Such submarines are now considered the quietest in the world, and an improved hull cover makes their detection using radar almost impossible.
The main driving moment of the submarine is created by a quiet permanent-magnet motor.
At the moment there is one boat in service with the Russian Navy, and in 2019 two more will come to the fleet.
All new submarines of this type will be sent to the Pacific Fleet, precisely because first of all they are intended for combat operations in the conditions of the World Ocean.
That is, to use American terminology, these are the ships of "blue water". The main objective of the project 677 submarines is to fight the enemy’s surface and submarine fleet and to defend the deployment of nuclear submarine cruisers.
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ab1fe8de44a9438327dd11c/rossiia-sozdala-gibridnye-submariny-dlia-sinei-vody-5c0fb20346ef5c00aaa81caa?from=feed


The submarine is [quieter than Kilos and] capable of diving to a depth of up to 350 meters. The maximum speed of its underwater course is more than 20 knots, .. The submarine will be able to stay under water for up to two weeks without surfacing to charge the batteries.
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201812180300-mtej.htm

Such a diving depth capability is not needed in shallow waters!

Wrong image, Ladas don't have VLS tubes

Don't be so picky, western undercovers just switched sides 

Perhaps mods can move the discussion to the topic where we can continue with criticising Virginias  

Anyway according to Shishkin only one is coming next year: https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/

PapaDragon wrote:Wrong image, Ladas don't have VLS tubes

Those 18 Caliber missiles will be launched from torpedo tubes then? Or maybe they plan to insert a missile compartment on the new subs?

Yes, like how the new Kilos have 'up to 18 Kalibr' too.

Ladas to Pacific fits with recent statement of Kilos to North but I think I'll believe it when boats start getting delivered.

hoom wrote:Yes, like how the new Kilos have 'up to 18 Kalibr' too.

Ladas to Pacific fits with recent statement of Kilos to North but I think I'll believe it when boats start getting delivered.

It`s a pity that people on this Forum are usually "out of the matter". Pr.677 SSKs don`t carry 18 kalibrs! 18 is a total number of weapons (torpedoes/missiles) Export version of Lada - Amur 1850, 1650, 950 (in reference to displacement) all have VLS behind the sail/fin. Dived endurance on batteries is approx 650M @ 3 knots - 220 hours approx - not more than 9 days. AIP version, if and when it emerges, will have greater endurance dived.

verkhoturye51 wrote:Don't be so picky, western undercovers just switched sides 

Perhaps mods can move the discussion to the topic where we can continue with criticising Virginias  

Anyway according to Shishkin only one is coming next year: https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/

I really don`t pick what has Lada to do comparing to Virginia SSNs?

One is coming next year!?. Do you remember - i do - that first news about projecting type 212 U-boot i have heard more than quarter of a century aqo!, And the first was completeed in 2000s.

Pr.677 SSKs don`t carry 18 kalibrs! 18 is a total number of weapons (torpedoes/missiles)

'Up to' means exactly that, max 18 weapons but any mix from all torpedos to all Kalibr.

The last 2 Kilos off Syria have demonstrated firing nearly a full load of Kalibr out of their 18 total weapons (vs previous estimates of max 4 or 6) so its logical that the same capability will be on the Ladas.

hoom wrote:

Pr.677 SSKs don`t carry 18 kalibrs! 18 is a total number of weapons (torpedoes/missiles)

'Up to' means exactly that, max 18 weapons but any mix from all torpedos to all Kalibr.

The last 2 Kilos off Syria have demonstrated firing nearly a full load of Kalibr out of their 18 total weapons (vs previous estimates of max 4 or 6) so its logical that the same capability will be on the Ladas.

Kilos off Syrian coast, as all pr.877/636 SSKs have 6 TTs. So, it is perfectly viable to have full salvo of 6 kalibr missiles. Reload takes some time and though, there is no effect of surprise and effect on target is smaller! Naval staff confirms no more than 12 kalibrs from two boats for one mission. Confirmed. Source... russian naval officers from Tartus.

They could certainly fit vertical launch tubes to the Ladas if they wanted to... lets wait and see which ones they decide to go with because there are a wide range of options for the export model and being the main customer I am sure the Russian Navy can get any features they ask for as long as they are prepared to pay for them of course.

A new brigade of Lada submarines (Project 677) will be deployed as part of the Pacific Fleet

https://topwar.ru/151076-mo-rf-razvernet-na-kamchatke-novuju-brigadu-podlodok.html



The lead submarine of the project 677 Lada St. Petersburg showed on tests that it's "much more difficult" to detect than submarines of project 636 Kilo

https://ria.ru/20181217/1548103140.html

Tests of the second submarine of Project 677 "Kronstadt" will begin in 2019

Diesel-electric submarine was launched on September 20, 2018

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6149427

AIP work is on hold (already 1-1.5yrs!) due to lack of funds https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B020/
Thats pretty disappointing & why I get troubled by reports of all sorts of exotic stuff like new VTOL fighters, when programs like this have no $$$.