Project 677: Lada class submarine

Hole wrote:When you can build nuclear powered subs an AIP isn´t that important. And there is the new mini NPP developed for Poseidon. If this thing can propel a 20m long "torpedo" to 100kn and give it a range of 20.000km, three or four of them could power a sub the size of a Kilo or Lada fora long time.

Hole wrote:Exactly. If you are able to build nuclear subs there is no need for an AIP just to be able to travel for four weeks under water without surfacing. A longer duration with such small boats would be difficult = diesel subs are proven and more then good enough for patrols or even shooting cruise missiles at some terrorists.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

AIP is quieter than electric batteries and Reactors.

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

AIP is quieter than electric batteries and Reactors.

A kilo without aip will be just as silent as one with. Diesel subs use their diesel engines to recharge their batteries. Then run on batteries.

AIP help improving the quantity of power stored or help produce electricity under the water like for exemple store oxygen so that the engines can work without the need to surface.

In terms of accoustic the engine will still need to be turn on and that produce huge noise. Diesel subs are more stealthy than nuk only when running on batteries.

kvs wrote:

Hole wrote:When you can build nuclear powered subs an AIP isn´t that important. And there is the new mini NPP developed for Poseidon. If this thing can propel a 20m long "torpedo" to 100kn and give it a range of 20.000km, three or four of them could power a sub the size of a Kilo or Lada fora long time.

Nobody has presented a case for AIP based on operation performance of diesel-electric submarines.    Small submarines were never designed to be in the water for
years without surfacing.   So they were never used in such roles.    Now we have this AIP gimmick and all of the sudden no diesel-electric has any use without it.
Utter BS.   But this gimmick-think is exactly how western marketing works.   Consumer saps think that they can't live without some new feature that has less than
marginal impact on the utility of a product.    And western diesel-electric sub makers can then sell their boats for $2 billion each.    Would anyone please demonstrate
how AIP justifies a 6-fold price markup compared to a project 636.3 submarine?

Arming submarines with more effective weapons is not a gimmick.

Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

verkhoturye51 wrote:

Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.

How would inflation in USD increase the cost of Lada's sold in Rubles?

verkhoturye51 wrote:

How would inflation in USD increase the cost of Lada's sold in Rubles?  

I've compared dollars with dollars.

Again, what does USD have to do with Lada's sold in Rubles?

verkhoturye51 wrote:

Again, what does USD have to do with Lada's sold in Rubles?

High Russian inflation would increase relative price of Lada even more and prove that AIP isn't that expensive. But inflation are only numbers. If you translate it in present Russian prices you can tell an ordinary Russian how many loafs of bread Lada buys, but that's all.

If you prefer fair play, than translate today's 212 prices back to the end 1990s using German inflation: 400/(1,02)^20=270 mio. Much cheaper than Lada, not to say that in the time of those prices being set, 212 wasn't serially produced yet.

So explain to me why Lada prices haven't grown by a factor of 10???

Can anyone show an official price tag of Lada?

verkhoturye51 wrote:

Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.

By some reports a Yasen sub costs $500 million now that it's in production.

verkhoturye51 wrote:

By some reports a Yasen sub costs $500 million now that it's in production.

2011 estimate for Yasen program was 5 bn dollars, 1.5 bn for the first boat and 0.6 bn for the next 6.

Then they decided to heavily modernise 885M and Kazan costed 3.5 bn.

Hole wrote:Compared to the living costs they earn nearly the same. A small house in Amiland will cost you 500.000+. Your kid goes to college? 50.000+. A small band aid on the knee of your kid? 500+. A hamburger? 20+.