PAK FA, T-50: News #1

GarryB wrote:Unless the object is a perfect sphere there is no real value in such a number.

Different angles will result in different levels of visibility.

It has been observed that the radar returns from moving multielement metal targets often exhibit an unexpected modulation that has both random (or noise-like) and semicoherent components. One possible mechanism for producing this effect is the modification of the current distribution on the target that results when electrical contacts between target elements are altered intermittently by the forces associated with target motion. Such intermittent-contact modulation must be considered in the design of a radar for detecting or identifying a target exhibiting this effect. Depending on the application, the observer may wish to enhance or suppress the observation of the effect, or it may be important that the effect itself be enhanced or suppressed in the object being observed. To accomplish any of these, the effect must be well understood, and we have therefore undertaken a program of research to study the radar detection of agitated metals (RADAM). This report summarizes our progress during the second year of the program. The overall objectives of our RADAM research program are to (1) identify and isolate the physical processes and mechanisms that contribute to a RADAM signature, (2) identify and explain important recognizable features of the signature, and (3) determine means for separating the significant identifying components of the signature from nonmeaningful components.

GarryB wrote:Or perhaps a couple of small things like facts are being ignored here... first... Russian ground radars are better than US ones, the PAK FAs in question are prototypes that aren't fully stealthy yet, and thirdly the PAK FAs are operating in restricted airspace where it doesn't matter if they don't appear on radar screens. Telemetry data is coming from equipment inside the aircraft themselves... there is little need for external tracking.

GarryB wrote:When Clarke Kent takes off his glasses and becomes Superman no one seems to recognise him... except everyone in the audience... the same as when every Batman character puts on their mask... of course I admit I wouldn't recognise you with or without a mask.

No it wont... If you are Batman standing in the middle of a group of people working out who you are does not require the careful analysis of anyone, they just need to shoot the guy in the mask and when he is dead take off the mask.

Mindstorm wrote:It is a RADAR REFLECTOR with almost isotropic RCS magnification capabilities ,clear ?

It NEED to be irradiated in order to work, clear ?

havok: Clear to me...

havok: Say what...??? Enemy radar? Why would we want to fly the F-22 into combat with radar enhancers?


You may know how the luneburg lens WORK, but it is clear to me that you do not know how it is EMPLOYED. There is a difference

Mindstorm wrote:...and would be, therefore, absolutely incapable to "hide" actual RCS of F-22...

havok: Sure it can. The lens works by reflecting the seeking radar's signal back to source direction. Since the -22's RCS is so low, any reflected signals received by the seeking radar is an AGGREGATE of the -22's low RCS and of the lens' reflecting the seeking radar's signals, effectively masking the -22's true RCS value.

In marine safety, a small boat would install a mast corner reflector so radar equipped larger vessels could see it. Why? Because the small boat's RCS is too low or unknown. So with a corner reflector, the small boat's RCS, which is unknown to the larger vessel, is effectively masked by the corner reflector.

Like I said, you may know how the luneburg lens works, but not how it is employed.

What i believe and know is that the placement of this reflector render it totally incapable to be even only illuminated by enemy radar in themost critical aspect projections of the aircraft and would be, therefore, absolutely incapable to "hide" actual RCS of F-22 where that most count

Mindstorm wrote:A EF Thyphoon , a Rafale, a MiG-31BM or an SU-35S in a typical "nose on" vector of interception with an F-22 equipped with this lens would obtain Raptor's RCS totally non influenced by it .

havok: No, they would not. The device's location sufficiently reflect JUST ENOUGH to mask the -22's true RCS.

Please...You are still struggling with it...

Please...f-16.net is populated by LOTS of people with real aviation experience. Far more than we can say for this playground.

Mindstorm wrote:Su-35S's radar in a nose on interception vector on this F-22.
The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

YES or NOT ?

MiG-31BM's radar in an high altitude interception of those F-22s.
The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

YES or NOT ?

An EF Thypoon or Rafale's radar illuminate ,in an exercise this F-22 in this perfectly head-on aspect.
The device's location sufficiently reflect ....."JUST ENOUGH"..... to mask the -22's true RCS ?

YES or NOT ?

Mindstorm wrote:What penetrated in the West, revolutioning and literally "allowing" the same establishment of the modern scientific community of sector in the US and the ultimate realization of all theirs "stealth" platforms up to today ,was a very little....and perfectly controlled .....part of the Theoretic Physics achievements of Soviet In. 108 obtained more than 20 years before .

Even today more than a person in the US sector would be caught by several cold shivers becoming aware of the percentage of information ,concepts and results totally erased also in the four versions of the unique work (among the many of In. 108) "allowed" for publication on which them put theirs hands on

USA has a true wonderful engineering sector, with the historically best applicative computing hardware basis and precision machinery of the planet ; this ,together with very massive investments aimed at the goal, has allowed mass production of similar high cost LO platforms also in years where the making technological level don't permitted theirs realization at an acceptable and cost-efficient level for any other nation (including the same where the founding principles had been established).

But if we talk of the Theoretic Physics understanding of the phenomenon involved and the entire gamut of solutions to the problem explored and validated, our domestic Institutes of the field are on a totally different league in respect to any other on this planet.

Mindstorm wrote:Oh yes ,the place where ,since several years, people continue to talk in circle of MiG-29 parameters, performances and capabilities on the basis of the......comical, demented theories of a disturbed poster calling himself....Fulcrumflyer !!

Oh yes , real aviation experience

This is the place where people still believe, in 2013, that the unlucky and full of comical technical mistakes private speech of Col Fornof's at the "Daedalians" retired pilots meeting was an...official debriefing of Red Flag 2008 getting even the courage to continue to cite it as a source
Here people still believe that USAF F-15s had gained the upper hand in the one vs one DACT engagement against the IAF Su-30MKI !!!

This is the place where people still believe that AIM-120B had 70 km engagement range ,AIM-120C 105 km and AIM-120D 170-180 km

Especially when US Strong experts talk about 0.00001m rcs for the F-22, and we talk about much much bigger numbers... generally in the 0.3m range. I think I know where the exaggeration is... and it isn't here.

The masking of the -22's RCS is not intentional. Repeat -- NOT INTENTIONAL. But coincidental, or a by-product of, because of the need to assist air traffic controllers.

If we fly an enhanced -22 to MAKS, you can bet all your rubles that its RCS is hidden.

So you go on be proud of Soviet/Russian theoretical musings while we get busy producing stuff.

That is a laugh. We got plenty of Russian stuff out in the ranges in Nevada. We know how 'good' they are. But of course, you are free to believe whatever you like.

That is a laugh. We got plenty of Russian stuff out in the ranges in Nevada. We know how 'good' they are. But of course, you are free to believe whatever you like.

AlfaT8 wrote:There have been a number of theories, 3 of which i find plausible:
1) Firstly, The L-band being used to not only increase angular radar coverage, but also to give the aircraft Anti-Stealth ability.

AlfaT8 wrote:I find this unlikely, cause i have read in the past that for an L-band to work against stealth it would need to be large in size, would require significant power and significant processing ability, please correct me if i am wrong.

radar resolution cell: The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.

AlfaT8 wrote:2) Increase the aircraft Data-linking(comm,targeting,ext) abilities.

Which i find odd yet plausible, if the coverage was really needed.

3) Data-link jamming, giving the aircraft the ability to jam enemy data-link guidance of there long range missiles, forcing the missile to activate its active homing earlier, missing its target and forcing enemy aircraft from BVR to WVR combat.

This one i find to be the main purpose of the L-band, cause it makes a the most sense and because it was also advertised in Concern Radio-electronic technology promotional video in MAKS-2011.

1) Firstly, The L-band being used to not only increase angular radar coverage, but also to give the aircraft Anti-Stealth ability.

I find this unlikely, cause i have read in the past that for an L-band to work against stealth it would need to be large in size, would require significant power and significant processing ability, please correct me if i am wrong.

2) Increase the aircraft Data-linking(comm,targeting,ext) abilities.

Which i find odd yet plausible, if the coverage was really needed.

3) Data-link jamming, giving the aircraft the ability to jam enemy data-link guidance of there long range missiles, forcing the missile to activate its active homing earlier, missing its target and forcing enemy aircraft from BVR to WVR combat.

The locations of these L-band antennas/arrays, their shapes, and small size will not give the PAK any tactical advantages.

You mentioned earlier the engine for future aviation complex tactical aircraft. I understand that the issue is sensitive in terms of technical solutions and is reluctant to give the designers comments on this account. One wrong word can be said about many professionals who do not want to report a new product. Still, a few words on the participation of the "Saturn" in the project.

- In the new projects, "Saturn" is actively working on a second stage engine for the PAK FA. Although we present the ODC Division civil engines, "Saturn" did not terminate in cooperation with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. "A.M.Lyulki" work on the engine. From 2006 to the present in the KB was created significant technological advance over the engine of the second stage for the PAK FA. This has allowed this year to reach an agreement with the leadership of military engines division that "Saturn" will be responsible for the high-pressure compressor and the high pressure turbine. These nodes are actually the heart of aviation engine. Achieve just such a solution was possible thanks to the fact that you have already created a demonstrator engine components, which fully meets the specs. We have experimentally confirmed it. I can say honestly and calmly, that today all the critical decisions that need to be tested experimentally for the engine tested. And the engine will be a target date by the competent organization of labor.

- You said that the aircraft engine is one of the most difficult and perhaps the most difficult in engineering terms the product. What is the difficulty?

- Aircraft engine - is a heat engine. In it, the higher the temperature of combustion, the higher the compression ratio of the compressor, the higher the efficiency. For these numbers to improve, you need heavy-duty, ultra-light, heat-resistant materials and alloys that can withstand high temperature and pressure. Suffice it to say that the temperature at the outlet of the combustion chamber may exceed 2,000 degrees. The turbine rotates at a rate of tens of thousands of revolutions per minute. Such temperatures and such speed to withstand turbine parts - wheels and turbine blades. Tear off one of the blades when the engine is under the wing of the plane in the air, and the flight may stop ... To avoid this, we need modern materials technology, which in nature and technology did not previously exist, which do not yet have names. CB now getting ready to offer not only new modifications and improvements have already mastered the engine, and innovative solutions to the very design of gas turbine engine.

Forming a technological advance, we first of all, are working to create high-temperature materials. "Saturn" today - one of the few organizations which, besides the use of materials on the market, is developing a high-temperature materials that can operate at gas temperatures up to 2050 degrees Kelvin. There are several patented "Saturn" alloys, which allows for their implementation to raise the temperature before the turbine more than 100 degrees. This is in fact already a revolution in engine. No new high-temperature alloys can not create a new generation of engines. This, in turn, requires new technologies, new equipment. New grade need not in itself, but as a material to create complex three-dimensional parts such as cooling the turbine blades. Turbine blade - a very important detail, which has a very complex three-dimensional surface, not only outside but inside in order to keep it running. It is no accident aircraft engine - "flaming engine" - is compared to the well-known anthem aviators with the human heart.

The president of the UAC, "one of the basic requirements for a fifth generation fighter, which distinguishes them from the fourth - a low level of visibility." "So we try different spraying and coating, reducing the visibility of aircraft systems, including gold," - said the head of the United Aircraft Corporation.

He also said that the fifth-generation fighter, which will be established on the basis of test samples PAK FA will really embodies "the most advanced technology." "It will be really disruptive plane" - not without pride, said Mikhail Pogosyan.

One of the biggest challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine is a development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."

About that, at what stage is the creation of the engine, which features the new aircraft will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN" chief designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN.

- Yuri, tell us what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?

- The plane of the fifth generation T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which would make it highly maneuverable, fast, cost-effective and able to withstand such competitors as American F-22 and F-35.

Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

- What units and aggregates of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the greatest challenge for the engineers?

- In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. We were asked to make a turbine operating at this level of temperature at which the metal nickel alloys just melted. This work was successful.

The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

Solving these and other problems, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance, which will be the basis for a new family of engines. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.

- What structural materials preferred for a new engine?

- No of new materials is impossible to provide the characteristics that we make to the new generation of CCD. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).

First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.

There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We can offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.

Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.

- Do not forget that all new and modern with the time expires. Is there a possibility of the engine created for modernization?

- Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe 50 years.

Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.

- How will affect the installation of new engines for flight characteristics of fifth generation fighter? Feel a difference pilot peresevshy the plane with the engine of the first stage on the plane with the engine of the second stage?

- The new engine is fundamentally different from the previous product of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. The plane with the new engine will be more docile and can quickly react to the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life.

- Yuri, we know that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes?

Now prototype completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In essence, this is the result of a deep family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today the Su-27.

Certainly, it's a great engine, which is a best seller and is built on the fundamental principles and basic ideas of the design office Arkhip Cradles. But this is still the engine stage 4 + +.

The work on the contract for the sketch and technical project of Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter


Moscow, April 10. The work on the contract for the sketch and technical project promising multipurpose fighter (SIP / FGFA). Fully developed image plane. Agreed amount of work and the division of the parties during development work (R & D). Preparations are being made to a contract for OCD. His signing is planned for this year.

The agreement on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft was signed on 18 October 2007 in Moscow as part of the 7th session of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation. It is the largest joint project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation. In December 2010, FSUE "Rosoboronexport" company "Sukhoi" Aeronautiks Limited and Hindustan (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) signed a contract for the development of conceptual and technical project aircraft. In the course of the first stage of the Russian side has trained Indian professionals, provided the original data and the software to create a single environment. Indian working group of experts in January 2012 working in Russia, Russian specialists - in India. The Company now exchange the necessary information. Developed by the MIT parties will have some differences from the Russian prototype associated with specific requirements of the Indian Air Force.

Company "Sukhoi" is also involved in other Russian-Indian programs - modernization standing on the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI fighters, and adaptation to the Russian-Indian missiles, air-to-ground "BrahMos".

SUKHOI

Can some one who understands Russian and has knowledge on Engine tell me what qualities of Engine are they talking off for 2nd Stage PAK-FA ?

Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.