Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

Zivo wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Zivo wrote:Image seeking and SALH, too expensive. It could be used in a top attack profile though.

The LCS's gun is a only a 57mm

That is freaking expensive like making 9mm rounds made of diamonds. Unbelievable to use such guidance for such small rounds, the guidance seeker alone must account for 90% of the costs per round.

Is one round going to cost like $50k or something absurd like that?

Werewolf wrote:

Zivo wrote:

Werewolf wrote:

Zivo wrote:Image seeking and SALH, too expensive. It could be used in a top attack profile though.

The LCS's gun is a only a 57mm

That is freaking expensive like making 9mm rounds made of diamonds. Unbelievable to use such guidance for such small rounds, the guidance seeker alone must account for 90% of the costs per round.

Is one round going to cost like $50k or something absurd like that?

Not sure but probably more than you earn in a year.

Zivo wrote:

I don't understand... This round is so the LCS can shoot at speedboats, rafts, and shit on open water. It would be cheaper and just as effective to shoot a few unguided HE rounds at them, it's not like they're going to run out of 57mm rounds anyways FFS. What a waste of money.

Werewolf wrote:

Zivo wrote:

I don't understand... This round is so the LCS can shoot at speedboats, rafts, and shit on open water. It would be cheaper and just as effective to shoot a few unguided HE rounds at them, it's not like they're going to run out of 57mm rounds anyways FFS. What a waste of money.

Yes and if those rounds are intended for aircraft targets that would be a big mistake since with 16km range on a ship that would mean they let enemy aircrafts come far to close to them without using Anti Aircraft Missiles of far higher speed and accuracy not to mention lethality. Those rounds with such guidance don't make to much sense, anything that is on water or in air when it comes so close would be already in weapon engagement range of even a small torpedo/patrol boat, a barage of HE-shells is not only dozen times less cost intensive but also much better to keep the budget for things they actually need to improve. Hell even a 120mm HE round would most probably cost less than one 57mm IIR seeking round and by far more effective.

I wonder if it would be possible to just cut a hole in Kurganet's roof and drop in the Armata MBT turret?

That would be far to heavy for a plattform that "only" weight is 25+ tons the turret will wait around 9t i assume that would be 36% of the weight, i assume they will make it as thin and as flat as possible without wasting to much weight on it to sustain its 25-30t of weight it still has to be amphibic.

Image seeking and SALH, too expensive. It could be used in a top attack profile though.

The LCS's gun is a only a 57mm

In an urban area, saturation and suppression is king, smart shells will not help you.

That is freaking expensive like making 9mm rounds made of diamonds. Unbelievable to use such guidance for such small rounds, the guidance seeker alone must account for 90% of the costs per round.

Smart shells is just one more option that the commander can use.

To do what? Get himself killed? Waste money? Lose through attrition of resources?

In urban combat, smart shells wont even have time to maneuver.

Good to have as a waste of space, launched missiles would be far more effective, a quad pack of Kornets mounted left and right of the turret would take care of tanks, IFVs, APCs, low flying aircraft, and regular good old HE and HEAT/APFSDS and maybe HE-FRAG would take care of the rest.

Much like project 22160 is being shafted with the 57mm because Buerevstnik is desperately pushing it on the MOD.

TR1 wrote:Did you see how big Atom was? It was a freaking barnyard.

And that turret would have huge under-deck penetration.

That 57mm module shown recently is just a mockup, not a serious product yet. And once again, that flimsy looking thing would have a big drum inside, right in the middle of the troop compartment.

The 57 mm gun has ROF of 120 spm, effective range of 6 km, and maximum range 12 km, or 16 km with the naval version. The gun has smart ammo with laser guided shells.

GarryB wrote:

The 57 mm gun has ROF of 120 spm, effective range of 6 km, and maximum range 12 km, or 16 km with the naval version. The gun has smart ammo with laser guided shells.

The 6km range is for conventional HE shells that are unguided, and is effective range.
Effective range for guided shells against air and ground targets would likely be the same 16km range as the naval version as they will use the same ammo and gun barrel.
According to the videos I have seen the naval 57mm has a firing rate of 300 rpm.

I think the prime object of the 57mm guided shells on the American LCS is to counter the Iranian’s swarm speed boats that give a big headache to the American Navy.
They are trying to fight those boats by laser and by missiles like the Hellfire, with vertical launch, and the Griffin, that his ER version has a range of 15 km.
The 57mm Navel gun, with his long range, high RoF and “fire and forget” capability, is another good answer to do the problem.
BTW, the first 32 LCS will look the same as we know, but from number 33 to 52 they will get upgrade and will look like a frigate. The name of the upgrade LCS is SSC.

The combination of a 57mm gun and a twin barrel 23mm cannon is interesting... the former has range and power, while the latter is rather more effective than a heavy machine gun as HE rounds are more effective in cannon calibres while the ammo is not that much bigger than HMG ammo so it can be carried in large numbers.
The vehicle would still need some sort of anti tank capability so I would add 4-6 ready to fire Kornet-EM missiles...

That’s true, but as on one side of the turret we have the 23mm gun, we can install only 2 missiles on his other side, but we can keep more missiles in the hall as no dismount soldiers will be there.

the problem is that a 120mm gun/mortar would fire even more effective HE rounds with ammo surprisingly not that much bigger than the 57mm shells... instead of maybe 120 rounds on board it would have perhaps 60 rounds... but those rounds would be effective to quite a distance with much more powerful HE capacity.

For that we will install, on the Armata’s chassis, a turret like the one on the 2S1 122mm SPH. This vehicle with the FSV will have suppressive firepower that will destroy, the enemy front line, and allow the APCs with the soldiers, to take the enemy post.

GarryB wrote:The combination of a 57mm gun and a twin barrel 23mm cannon is interesting... the former has range and power, while the latter is rather more effective than a heavy machine gun as HE rounds are more effective in cannon calibres while the ammo is not that much bigger than HMG ammo so it can be carried in large numbers. The vehicle would still need some sort of anti tank capability so I would add 4-6 ready to fire Kornet-EM missiles... the problem is that a 120mm gun/mortar would fire even more effective HE rounds with ammo surprisingly not that much bigger than the 57mm shells... instead of maybe 120 rounds on board it would have perhaps 60 rounds... but those rounds would be effective to quite a distance with much more powerful HE capacity.

flamming_python wrote:

TR1 wrote:Much like project 22160 is being shafted with the 57mm because Buerevstnik is desperately pushing it on the MOD.

As a patrol ship it probably doesn't need anything heavier.

GarryB wrote:
57mm is a useful calibre and allows a rather large ammo supply to be carried, but 76.2mm and indeed 100mm calibres offer rather better range and shell weight and the guided rounds are much cheaper...

I think the prime object of the 57mm guided shells on the American LCS is to counter the Iranian’s swarm speed boats that give a big headache to the American Navy.

The 57mm Navel gun, with his long range, high RoF and “fire and forget” capability, is another good answer to do the problem.
BTW, the first 32 LCS will look the same as we know, but from number 33 to 52 they will get upgrade and will look like a frigate. The name of the upgrade LCS is SSC.

That’s true, but as on one side of the turret we have the 23mm gun, we can install only 2 missiles on his other side, but we can keep more missiles in the hall as no dismount soldiers will be there.

For that we will install, on the Armata’s chassis, a turret like the one on the 2S1 122mm SPH. This vehicle with the FSV will have suppressive firepower that will destroy, the enemy front line, and allow the APCs with the soldiers, to take the enemy post.

I imagine an advantage of 57mm will be vs. enemy AFVs eventually fielding advanced APS, with 57mm (more) able to overwhelm with volleys of ammo. 100/120 low pressure gun/mortars, possibly with GLATGM option, still seems useful, so it will be interesting to see if that will also be fielded in a different model... I would guess that "some" export customer would like that approach even if Russian Army doesn't...

The entire navy is using 100mm guns (and larger) it seems, and they went for the 76.2mm caliber for those other large border ships (for the love of god I can't remember the name right now).....and suddenly we have 57mm on the 22160.

I don't really get it, but then again that ship's planned armament is weird and unclear in general...modular or whatnot.

1. In a second though, I’ll take out the 23mm gun from the turret and install it in RWS and put it on top of the turret, as we saw on the T-64. The advantages of that is the ability of the RWS to cover 360 degrees around the vehicle, and his high elevation that make it very useful in urban fighting especially against RPG’s teams. Add to that the high rate of fire and the explosive power of the ammo, and we get a weapon that should be a must on every fighting vehicles. It also will allow the gunner and the commander to engage different targets at the same time. The ammo will be kept in the turret.

It's better to keep the 23mm separate from the 57mm gun.

3. I like the idea about the rear turret, but with 7.62mm instead of the 0.5" and some electronic devise to make sure that the turrets will not shoot on each other.
For the rear turret I will get one more soldier.

The new unit will be the “breaking through unit” that will lead the offensive against the enemy line of defence. In this unit we should have FSV, the mighty TOS, 122mm SPG like the 2S1 Gvozdika, or the 120mm Vane. Don’t know which is better will appreciate your comments on that.

I think the BMPT and the FSV are basically the same type of vehicle, and both can fight with tank or infantry. I think the FSV has better firepower than the BMPT fighting in urban area and in open space, the long range of the 57mm gun make it perfect to engage ATGM’s teams, a capability that the BMPTs don’t have. Putting small radar on the FSV, (need to have if you want APS) will give the FSV the ability to locate the launch point of the RPG or ATGM, aim the 57mm/23mm gun to that point, and open fire automatically.

cracker wrote:yeah, hope to see it with 57mm later..

the tarp covered things are parts of the active protection?

So, what's your bets on the inner composition of side skirts? Air? layers + air? Era?

GarryB wrote:
With that in mind I think it is best to have the 57mm and 23mm guns joined together, fully stabilised in a high elevation mount for the gunner to use... targets the gunner will engage will either be engaged with a 57mm or 23mm or Kornet-EM. On the other hand the commander might need to fire a short burst at a fleeting target and therefore need a 12.7mm calibre or 40mm grenade... but the commanders job is to look for threats and targets... not to engage in shooting at targets... that would distract him from his proper role... let the gunner shoot at targets... that is his job.

Keep in mind the TOS only has a range of about 4.5km and is an engineer vehicle... once it has fired those 30 rockets it becomes the worlds biggest and heaviest harmonica...

120mm would be useful in the direct fire role but neither 2S3 nor NONA has the armour for the role of breakthrough vehicle... a BMPT with a 120mm main gun and a 23mm gatling could probably do the job as a LSV...