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    The New Arena active protection system

    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:16 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:On youtube someone commented that currently no tanks in the russian army have the arena. It really sucks if this is true.



    Oh but you can also add that no Russian tank ,at today mount "Nakidka" radar/IR masking suit.......but give to Russian Federation even only a far prospect of a conflict against a serious enemy and you will see them mounted on all first line MBTs within less than 48 hours Wink


    At now the only nation that is in a situation requiring that APS was mounted latest operative MBTs is Israel ; for any other ,Russia included, do that would represnt only a costly measure ,requiring moreover useless logistical maintenance efforts, unjustified by any pressing risk.


    Mindstorm, I am afraid I do not share your optimism.
    Any serious opponent will e met by nuclear deterrent anyways.
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    Post  Zivo Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:51 pm

    I wouldn't consider a poster to be a guarantee it can effective stop top-attack ATGMS, but I'm not saying it can't do it either. Even the old Arena could stop them under certain circumstances. I've seen plenty of information and footage that show Javelin, Spike, etc. come within the reach of ARENA, it appears their flight paths are not always as steep as fans of the missiles like to claim. Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:42 am

    On youtube someone commented that currently no tanks in the russian army have the arena. It really sucks if this is true.

    Currently they are in the process of deciding what to produce... they have had a gap where they didn't buy any armour (MBTs) at all, and it seems their decision is to upgrade some T-72s for the 3-4 years it will take to get Armata on line.

    In other words they had the choice of expensive but capable full upgrade of T-90AM which likely would have used up a lot of funds they could have used later for more armata based vehicles.

    Their decision is to choose the cheaper option of upgrading T-72s with full night vision and improved ERA and likely new ARENA and digital communications systems to allow the use of datalinks, and of course battle management systems to allow them to practise all the new stuff they will be able to do with armata and T-90AM.

    The point is that right now the choice is T-90AM at 4 million a vehicle or upgraded T-72 which has all the main features of the T-90AM for 1.5 million.

    In 4-5 years time when armata is available for production it might cost 6 million initially per vehicle so they might keep upgrading the T-72s or by then the technology will be cheaper because much of the new technology in the T-90AM can be replaced by technology created for the armata, so the electronics and sensors and NERA and APS and DIRCMS and other systems will be fitted to the T-90AM2 which might cost 2 million a vehicle because of the numbers they will build them in, so we may find that when armata production starts that T-90AM2 will start too.

    I suspect the T-90SM will export fairly well anyway... the T-90S is the export model of the T-90A and the T-90SM is the upgraded model of the T-90S like the T-90AM model is the upgraded model of the domestic T-90A.

    This new ARENA will likely be part of the T-72 upgrade.

    The armata and probably T-90AM will likely have a newer system able to deal with diving top attack threats and APFSDS rounds according to sources.

    At now the only nation that is in a situation requiring that APS was mounted latest operative MBTs is Israel

    Agreed, but would add most vehicles that enter combat in Afghanistan could use them as well. Just driving around the main danger is IEDs, but in combat the risk of RPGs increases as well.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:08 am

    True, but concept of BMPT is not, so its further development is now connected with Armata. We will see, what they will develop from BMPT.

    Agreed, the idea of a vehicle that can give close in support of heavy armour in terrain or environments where their long range vision and long range heavy firepower is no longer of use translates to a lot of other situations... think of a sniper with a heavy calibre bolt action rifle... very well armed, very well trained, but if he has to cut through a forest where visibility is perhaps 30m then he is incredibly vulnerable to even a small group of enemy soldiers armed with SMGs. A tank has heavy armour and a sniper has stealth training... the concept of the BMPT is to add a spotter with an assault rifle to the sniper team... not so they can go around fighting enemy units, but to cover the escape of the sniper in dangerous (to the sniper) situations, and also to find targets for the sniper in good situations.

    Of course my comments about the firepower options of the armata BMPT based on models shown rather than actual vehicles would be akin to taking away the bolt action heavy rifle and giving both men a semi auto DMR rifle like an SVDS and perhaps adding a Vityaz SMG to their weapon load to increase their potential weapon load... especially with a 20 round mags for the SVDS... or perhaps a change in calibre to a high velocity 6 x 49mm round optimised for the 1,000-1,200m range.

    It's true, that BMPT is there to replace infantry, but not in every environment. In open battlefield tanks will drive fast, so infantry could not follow them, but to have them inside weaker IFVs doesn't have sense. So instead of IFVs, BMPTs could do their role and are better protected without infantry inside. In mountains regions and in urban battlefield, BMPTs will work with infantry instead of tanks, because they have the same armor, but higher elevation of their main armament with higher rate of fire.

    Yes... I agree... the BMPT concept is interesting in that while designed to replace infantry to protect tanks (BMPT means tank support combat vehicle), that in many situations it could equally replace tanks and support infantry operations.

    In many ways that is what the BMP-3 is, though it doesn't have the armour of a tank, it certainly has the variety of armament to support infantry in a much wider range of situations than a tank could.

    I wouldn't consider a poster to be a guarantee it can effective stop top-attack ATGMS, but I'm not saying it can't do it either.

    The formulation of the poster would be based on the features of the product... it might not stop it every time, but then as I have mentioned on this forum several times the Javelin requires a heat signature to aim at to allow fire and forget performance... SHTORA is an EO system that defeats some types of guided weapons by dazzling the IR component of their guidance systems.

    For example Milan is a wire guided missile. When fired the missile trails a wire along which command signals can be sent to guide the missile, so initially the missile is lofted into the foreground in front of the launcher. The launcher has an optical port for a sensor called a gionometer that is basically an infrared camera that detects the small flare on the tail of the missile. The guidance system uses the position of that flare to work out where the missile is in its field of view. based on the position of the flare in relation to the centre of the crosshairs of the aiming system the guidance system can work out the flight commands needed to move the missile onto the target. If the target is stationary it can more the missile in flight till it flys down the crosshairs to hit the target.

    The thing is that to guide the missile the launcher needs to know where the missile is and it knows this via the IR flare on the tail of the missile.

    If the target detects the launch or the IR signature of the incoming missile and automatically turns the turret to face the incoming threat and the two main IR light light up the problem for the Milan launcher is that it is now like a man with binoculars trying to see stars in the middle of the day next to the sun. The Milan post will lose sight of its missile and it will likely hit the ground.

    Milan is a fairly slow missile because it is dragging a wire... Javelin is a very slow missile also and whether homing on its own using a thermal sight or being manually guided (ie like Milan) it is still vulnerable to IR dazzlers and indeed smoke... which is not to say they aren't capable and dangerous weapons.

    Most weapons are not as good or as bad as their friendly or competitor marketing will suggest... Smile
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    Post  Zivo Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:47 am

    Certainly, DIRCM's are going to have crippling effect on IR guided ATGM, specifically the steep diving variety.

    They're all ready in service on the KA-52, not much longer and we will see them on AFVs as well. I don't even need to mention Nakidka. Smile
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:18 am

    Actually the PAPV precedes the airborne version... it detects optics with a laser and vibrating mirror... ie direct a laser beam onto a mirror that is rapidly vibrating in one plane and you get a line of laser light instead of a point. If you pan that mirror the line scans like a radar. A simple laser optical port as used on a laser range finder to detect the reflected laser energy can then be used to "look" for strong reflections from optics like binoculars or scopes or IR sensor windows in the nose of missiles. When it completes its scan which can be very fast, it can direct another much more powerful laser at any optical system it detected.

    The PAPV weighed about 30kgs and has been available for export for over a decade.

    There is a thread on anti sniper systems that is about a pair of binoculars that performs the same function, and I rather suspect new Russian tanks will have similar capabilities built into their optics too. Smile
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    Post  AJ-47 Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:50 pm

    [quote="Zivo"]Keep in mind that ARENA-E is scalable. Users could very easily and cheaply add two more bins on the side, by moving the forward facing bins more towards the front, closer to the ERA and putting a second bin between that and the smoke dispensers, facing out 90 degrees on either side. [\quote]

    When I read all the comments I think that the Arena-E is the same as the old Arena just built as a kit. so it can be put on any vehicle that want to get some ADS fast and chip. I think it's a good idea and they can sell a lot of them. Think about the T-55 with ADS.
    If we think this way, than the bin can be simple as can be, and the amount of them will be part of the coverage that the customer wants. I'm sure that for the Armeta the factory will install another system that will be built in the turret.
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    Post  Zivo Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:30 pm

    The major improvements are the software and sensors.

    Armata wont be using Arena, but an APS called "Afghanistan" which apparently is capable of defeating APFSDS. What it looks like, and how it's configured, as far as I know has never been revealed.
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    Post  AJ-47 Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:07 pm

    Zivo wrote:The major improvements are the software and sensors.

    Armata wont be using Arena, but an APS called "Afghanistan" which apparently is capable of defeating APFSDS. What it looks like, and how it's configured, as far as I know has never been revealed.
    Get it thanks
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    Post  Mindstorm Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:18 am


    It seem that, not only KBM has not abandoned the goal to offer abroad mass production of the modernized Arena-E ,but has also significantly improved its defeating capability against the most modern AT elements (top attack included) and the adaptability to different platforms.


    http://armstass.su/?page=article&aid=125331&cid=25


    Второй проект предусматривает оснащение модернизированного танка Т-72 комплексом активной защиты (КАЗ) "Арена-Э", обеспечивающего защиту танка в круговой зоне 360 град от противотанковых средств - гранат РПГ, артиллерийских кумулятивных снарядов и противотанковых управляемых ракет, в том числе срабатывающих при пролете над танком.

    На DEFEXPO-2014 будет представлена новая конфигурация КАЗ, которая позволяет размещать комплекс "Арена-Э" практически на любой машине. Она отличается от КАЗ предыдущей конфигурации тем, что бортовая радиолокационная станция разнесена на несколько блоков и размещена таким образом, что не мешает танку выполнять другие боевые задачи. КАЗ "Арена-Э" в новой конфигурации может быть установлен на танках Т-72, Т-72Б, Т-90 и на других образцах бронетехники.


    On the other side this choice very likely mean that the new generation of active protection systems now developed for perspective unified platforms of the "Kurganet" and "Armata" family will be not offered in an export model ,on the international market for a long time.


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    Post  collegeboy16 Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:22 pm

    Nice, this system would diminish the effectiveness of most HEAT type weapons ranging from man-portable to helo carried.
    I think maybe the Russians are planning to make the jump to KE projectiles soon, most of their newer HEAT weapons
    are supersonic, and with a lot of space vacated in the warhead by the replacement of the shaped charge with a penetrator,
    would allow for rocket fuel or maybe scramjet/ramjet engines with fuel.
    Ofc. next step would be anti KE projectile capability which is Afghanistan. I wonder how west will counter it? Brute force seems
    likely, they are prolly hard at work on ETC guns and very resilient penetrators. Or maybe decoys/jammer rounds?
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:21 am

    Sounds like the system we saw photos of (on a model) a while back.... should be interesting to see it actually mounted on a real tank however.
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    Post  Vann7 Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:39 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    It seem that, not only KBM has not abandoned the goal to offer abroad mass production of the modernized Arena-E ,but has also significantly improved its defeating capability against the most modern AT elements (top attack included) and the adaptability to different platforms.

    That should have been obvious for anyone in this discussion when it was posted their promotional Arena material.

    The New Arena active protection system - Page 3 _DSC0110


    Those promotional posters ,(its content) are not created by secretaries or janitors ,that do not know anything about Arena_E ,but usually by its own designers or technical people close to the developers.

    According to KBM promotional material,Arena-E can defeat (clock wise) hellfire missiles fired from an Apache , Javelin missiles fire from foot ,hellfires from vehicle? and no idea what AT weapon is the top left one. This means that KBM developers feels confident enough to promote Arena-E active defenses against top attack missiles to dedicate a poster for it.  It clearly doesn't means that it will be immune 100% of the time ,against any scenario ,that doesn't exist.. but that is good enough to defeat them in majority of times.

    And looking more at the poster it appears that they do not promote 360 coverage but more like 320.. appears to be a small side in the back of turret not covered ,but that might be just an artistic thing..  But if thats is the case.. i do not see a single problem with that. Any army with a Tank that allows the enemy to fire anti tank missiles from behind their lines ,is doing something terribly wrong and don't deserve to be leading there..  

    There is a lot of misconceptions in this Discussion about how tanks operate in Urban warfare , and it had to do with not seeing them in real combat how they operate. The Syrian army (who is trained by Russia and have advisors too) use T-72M tanks with reactive armor in Rebels controlled zones ,and the fights are not 2km away , but as close as 50 meters away at times ,when they need to enter deep inside urban zones to destroy a fortification. Hit and move tactics is what they do ,they use tanks to force militants leave their positions and infantry finish them.. i have yet to see a Tank being fired a rocket grenade or AT missile from behind in Syria that never happens. All the attacks on tanks are always at the sides 80% of the times and 20% from near front.. The rear line is where is always backed by many soldiers and a command post..  Major problem for operations in Urban zones have not been Rocket grenades or AT missiles.. but mines and IED ,they delay a lot of operations in Urban zones.  Rocket Grenades are next to useless against reactive armor.. unless you do a lucky shot or use a Kornet or a heavy anti tank weapons.
    Arena-E will definitively have no problem weather it can engage the rear or not ,because those are very rare shots and can only happen if there is incompetence in the mobilization of armor.. Neither see a problem with Arena and soldier safety , the only times you will need to cover behind a tank in urban zones is when there are big open spaces..and no building to use as cover..Is there an option to disable arena temporarily that will be good enough.  .Subscribe to Anna News youtube channel ,and you will some real tank operations in Urban warfare.

    https://youtu.be/62kT1WFwrAw


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:10 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Post  Regular Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:08 am

    and no idea what AT weapon is the top left one

    PzF 3-IT
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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:52 am

    German Panzerfaust-3.

    Rocket Grenades are next to useless against reactive armor.. unless you do a lucky shot or use a Kornet or a heavy anti tank weapons.

    RPG-28 is a very powerful rocket (125mm calibre) that would likely penetrate any tank from the side including those with ERA for which it has a precursor charge to set the ERA off before the main charge fires.

    APS is like ERA... it doesn't offer 100% protection, and doesn't cover 360 degrees 24/7 but it adds a layer of protection that is more effective against some attacks than others and improves the safety of the vehicle and crew.
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    Post  collegeboy16 Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:17 am

    RPG-28 is a nice weapon, tho its still a HEAT round and new Arena can easily deal with it.
    now with decoys, jammers ...
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:46 am

    RPG-28 is a nice weapon, tho its still a HEAT round and new Arena can easily deal with it.
    now with decoys, jammers ...

    ??

    RPG-28 is not guided so decoys and Jammers wont do very much.

    No APS system is perfect... they can certainly be targeted using accurate small arms fire, or simply overwhelmed.

    Or how about a rocket propelled land mine...  Twisted Evil 
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:07 am

    GarryB wrote:
    RPG-28 is a nice weapon, tho its still a HEAT round and new Arena can easily deal with it.
    now with decoys, jammers ...

    ??

    RPG-28 is not guided so decoys and Jammers wont do very much.

    No APS system is perfect... they can certainly be targeted using accurate small arms fire, or simply overwhelmed.

    Or how about a rocket propelled land mine...   Twisted Evil 

    How about a MON-100 shaped charged mine for AT purposes?

    at minute 04:00


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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:38 pm

    How about a MON-100 shaped charged mine for AT purposes?

    The MON-100 is not anti armour... it uses a shaped charge to keep its anti personel fragments in a tighter group so it is effective in the anti personel role out to greater distances.

    the MON-300 also uses a shaped charge shape to focus anti personel fragments so they can be used as a super shotgun over great distances.too.

    they do have mines with shaped charges designed to penetrate armour at standoff distances... the TM-83 for example is a 25cm diameter 25kg mine designed to penetrate an armour plate up to 400mm thick at distances up to 50m. the penetration is up to 80mm wide and can be used at a roadside to attack the sides of passing vehicles.
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    Post  acatomic Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:28 pm

    Hi, new member here  Very Happy


    Mindstorm wrote:
    It seem that, not only KBM has not abandoned the goal to offer abroad mass production of the modernized Arena-E ,but has also significantly improved its defeating capability against the most modern AT elements (top attack included) and the adaptability to different platforms.


    Link: New members are not allowed to post external links or emails for 7 days. Please contact the forum administrator for more information.


    Второй проект предусматривает оснащение модернизированного танка Т-72 комплексом активной защиты (КАЗ) "Арена-Э", обеспечивающего защиту танка в круговой зоне 360 град от противотанковых средств - гранат РПГ, артиллерийских кумулятивных снарядов и противотанковых управляемых ракет, в том числе срабатывающих при пролете над танком.

    На DEFEXPO-2014 будет представлена новая конфигурация КАЗ, которая позволяет размещать комплекс "Арена-Э" практически на любой машине. Она отличается от КАЗ предыдущей конфигурации тем, что бортовая радиолокационная станция разнесена на несколько блоков и размещена таким образом, что не мешает танку выполнять другие боевые задачи. КАЗ "Арена-Э" в новой конфигурации может быть установлен на танках Т-72, Т-72Б, Т-90 и на других образцах бронетехники.


    On the other side this choice very likely mean that the new generation of active protection systems now developed for perspective unified platforms of the "Kurganet" and "Armata" family will be not offered in an export model ,on the international market for a long time.





    Was this version of Arena-E shown on DEFEXPO-2014?
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:27 am

    Yes.

    It is a forum rule that new members post an introduction thread in the introduction and rules thread. Too late now for you... you don't need to delete this post, but please take the time to read the rules and post an introduction in the relevant section.
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    Post  acatomic Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:07 pm

    Are there any photos from DEFEXPO-2014 of Arena-E? I've been looking everywhere and I just can't find any.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:56 am

    https://engineeringrussia.wordpress.com/2014/02/11/arena-is-universal-armor/
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:41 am

    Arena-E for T-72:

    The New Arena active protection system - Page 3 T-72-avec-kit-arena-3
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    Post  calripson Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:23 pm

    Russian MOD has stated that 233 BTR 82A and 143 modernized T72 have been delivered so far in 2014. Do the modernized T72 have Arena ?


    http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/34571371/generaly-nazvali-kolichestvo-postupivshego-v-rossijskuyu

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