2S4 Tyulpan and 2S7 Pion

Reminds me of the Daniel Boone. It was a tripod launched rocket much like a TOW missile launcher but it was not guided... it was a ballistic missile with a range of 2km.

Instructions for use were critical... before you fired the weapon you dug a slit trench perpendicular to the line of fire, because when you fired the weapon you had to jump into the trench and take cover because the blast radius of the nuclear warhead was greater than the maximum range of the rocket....

I am not joking.

It was supposed to be a last ditch weapon to stop an armoured assault in Europe...

yes, that is the one... thank you Werewolf...

Still find it hilarious that someone developed a rocket whose blast radius is greater than its maximum flight range.... puts the MAD in Mutually Assured Destruction...

In every NATO infantry guide book/training brochure etc that i layed hands on had mortars classified as light/medium/heavy/fkn_Russians_and_their_Tulpan. One infantry guide i was reading (in english, apparently given away in big numbers to soldiers in NATO) was explaining penetrating power of mortars in urban warfare in case it hits the roof of the building and now how many floors it can go though and where you are supposed to hide in case of mortar strike etc. For Tulpan it was something of these lines: "Hide in fkn basement since its shell can penetrate up to 4 floors".

So if NATO guides from mid 90s consider it as very unpleasant experience i dont see the reason of not modernising it and implementing some type of cheap smart ammunition, i guess GPS/Glonass guided one would be cheapest solution. It has alot better performance in some areas than 155mm shell, especially in amount of explosive being carried, and its guided munition would be alot cheaper than howtizer shells, so imo it still has its place in urban warfare, sieges and low intensity warfare. Some revolver type loading system could be set for it most likely to greatly increase its rate of fire.

The thing with the heavy mortars is their low rate of fire and higher cost per shot.

With guided shells of course the low rate of fire and higher cost per shot is no longer a problem.

I suspect the main problem would be finding a target heavy enough to warrant 130kg HE mortar shells.

Most battlefield targets would be vapourised by such a shell.

I suspect if some sort of autoloading system could be arranged for it then instead of having six vehicles per unit you might get away with a bare minimum of two vehicles able to deliver hell... this would save costs and in terms of HE fire power delivered even one bomb per minute would allow significant impact on the target.

It would still be a very specialist weapon, though if they ever had to go back into Afghanistan or faced similar mountain combat in one of the other 'stans these would be excellent weapons... of course the steeper trajectory of the 240mm weapon would be more useful than the shallower 203mm round.

Militarov wrote:In every NATO infantry guide book/training brochure etc that i layed hands on had mortars classified as light/medium/heavy/fkn_Russians_and_their_Tulpan. One infantry guide i was reading (in english, apparently given away in big numbers to soldiers in NATO) was explaining penetrating power of mortars in urban warfare in case it hits the roof of the building and now how many floors it can go though and where you are supposed to hide in case of mortar strike etc. For Tulpan it was something of these lines: "Hide in fkn basement since its shell can penetrate up to 4 floors".

So if NATO guides from mid 90s consider it as very unpleasant experience i dont see the reason of not modernising it and implementing some type of cheap smart ammunition, i guess GPS/Glonass guided one would be cheapest solution. It has alot better performance in some areas than 155mm shell, especially in amount of explosive being carried, and its guided munition would be alot cheaper than howtizer shells, so imo it still has its place in urban warfare, sieges and low intensity warfare. Some revolver type loading system could be set for it most likely to greatly increase its rate of fire.

The Russian Army maintains 1 battalion of these with 8 pieces in Tambov. Specialized weapon kept for possible Urban warfare use. Short range is a major drawback as is logistics.

franco wrote:

Militarov wrote:In every NATO infantry guide book/training brochure etc that i layed hands on had mortars classified as light/medium/heavy/fkn_Russians_and_their_Tulpan. One infantry guide i was reading (in english, apparently given away in big numbers to soldiers in NATO) was explaining penetrating power of mortars in urban warfare in case it hits the roof of the building and now how many floors it can go though and where you are supposed to hide in case of mortar strike etc. For Tulpan it was something of these lines: "Hide in fkn basement since its shell can penetrate up to 4 floors".

So if NATO guides from mid 90s consider it as very unpleasant experience i dont see the reason of not modernising it and implementing some type of cheap smart ammunition, i guess GPS/Glonass guided one would be cheapest solution. It has alot better performance in some areas than 155mm shell, especially in amount of explosive being carried, and its guided munition would be alot cheaper than howtizer shells, so imo it still has its place in urban warfare, sieges and low intensity warfare. Some revolver type loading system could be set for it most likely to greatly increase its rate of fire.

The Russian Army maintains 1 battalion of these with 8 pieces in Tambov. Specialized weapon kept for possible Urban warfare use. Short range is a major drawback as is logistics.

Actually imo biggest drawback atm is painfully low rate of fire, and well yeah, logistics ofc due to specific ammo type. But if they were to redesign them abit increase rate of fire, add smart ammunition, maybe increase mobility on more powerful tracked platform etc, it could still be an exceptional asset.

Lack of range is an issue, but these weapons wont be standard artillery used everywhere... this is the sort of heavy weight weapon you bring up when you find the enemy has really dug in deep and has sand bags and concrete everywhere and are really mindset to fight it out.

You know... against Scots, Finns, Serbs, Chechens, Vietnamese type hard core enemies (note I mention these groups not because they are potential recipients, but because they show the sort of never give up type mentality...)

For the vast majority of the targets the 70km range Coalition with guided shells can generally do the job, but with a heavily fortified building the near vertical shells of the 240mm mortar and the enormous power of the 120kg projectiles... they would be devastating in urban areas and mountains.

A higher velocity weapon like Coalition has a higher muzzle velocity and much longer range but at longer range the trajectory will not be very steep so landing a shell between two tall buildings would be impossible and targets in the open on the ground between two tall buildings would actually be very safe.

With the 240mm with a near vertical trajectory they would not be safe...

The rate of fire of one shell per minute is not that bad for the Tulip... especially when there will be 6-8 vehicles in each unit so up to 960kg of HE projectiles landing at once would be rather devastating... especially with the accuracy of guided shells.

Modern technology in aiming and guided shells along with potential improvements in the base vehicle in loading means to me that these could be devastating weapons for very specific uses, but would be rather overkill for most units.

they are always fun to watch though... I have seen a few videos on youtube showing these weapons being loaded and fired... very impressive.

GarryB wrote:Lack of range is an issue, but these weapons wont be standard artillery used everywhere... this is the sort of heavy weight weapon you bring up when you find the enemy has really dug in deep and has sand bags and concrete everywhere and are really mindset to fight it out.

You know... against Scots, Finns, Serbs, Chechens, Vietnamese type hard core enemies (note I mention these groups not because they are potential recipients, but because they show the sort of never give up type mentality...)

For the vast majority of the targets the 70km range Coalition with guided shells can generally do the job, but with a heavily fortified building the near vertical shells of the 240mm mortar and the enormous power of the 120kg projectiles... they would be devastating in urban areas and mountains.

A higher velocity weapon like Coalition has a higher muzzle velocity and much longer range but at longer range the trajectory will not be very steep so landing a shell between two tall buildings would be impossible and targets in the open on the ground between two tall buildings would actually be very safe.

With the 240mm with a near vertical trajectory they would not be safe...

The rate of fire of one shell per minute is not that bad for the Tulip... especially when there will be 6-8 vehicles in each unit so up to 960kg of HE projectiles landing at once would be rather devastating... especially with the accuracy of guided shells.

Modern technology in aiming and guided shells along with potential improvements in the base vehicle in loading means to me that these could be devastating weapons for very specific uses, but would be rather overkill for most units.

they are always fun to watch though... I have seen a few videos on youtube showing these weapons being loaded and fired... very impressive.

Well i guess thats was their original role urban warfare aganist fortified enemy. Funny how you mention Serbs there . Generally speaking conventional artillery proved quite ineffective in urban warfare, i guess that is the reason why this super heavy mortar exists and why thermobaric warheads came to exist.

Eastern Military district units armed with 2S7 Pion. So these pieces are from stored capacity probably not new of course

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151203/1334820325.html&usg=ALkJrhjjmB-6EaVHaf6bW64UKCVHALKXVA

George1 wrote:Eastern Military district units armed with 2S7 Pion. So these pieces are from stored capacity probably not new of course

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151203/1334820325.html&usg=ALkJrhjjmB-6EaVHaf6bW64UKCVHALKXVA

There was a story last month that they also got a 2S4 unit of 240mm SP Mortar's. Don't know if the single units of each staged in Tambov were transferred East or second units was formed. There were several hundred of each in the reserve.

i thought that the logic was to replace old mobile artillery systems (2s1, 2s3, 2s7, 2s5) with 2s19 Msta and Coalition and in that way to reduce poly-type systems

2s4 is a mobile mortar as 2s23 and 2s9 Nona (they could be replaces by Boomerang type mobile mortar version)

It is all about use of available resources.

These powerful mortars and heavy guns (240mm mortar and 203mm gun) are not actually going to be replaced in service directly.

They are likely developing new ammo for these older weapons but they are not spending resources and money developing new models of land based 203mm and 240mm weapons AFAIK... which makes them relatively cheap because they have already been made... money already spent.

To retire them would be to lose their unique capabilities, while keeping them in service in certain units that draw them from storage when needed and likely return them to storage when not needed makes those units much more powerful and flexible.

Mortar and heavy gun versions of all the new vehicle families will be made, but likely of more modest calibre and more standard sizes... ie 120mm for mortars and 152mm for guns, though the low calibre will be compensated for by increased on board ammo capacity, rate of fire and accuracy and in the new weapons extended range and improvements in lethality with new types of specialised ammo.

Of course sometimes there is no substitute for size and the 120kg rounds of the 240mm mortar and the 110kg rounds of the 203mm gun will be used... for the rest of the time they can be kept in storage ready for the next time they are needed.

I'm glad these pretty unique weapons are soldiering on...they should send some of the mortars to Syria...perfect for pulverising fortified positions

i thought that the logic was to replace old mobile artillery systems (2s1, 2s3, 2s7, 2s5) with 2s19 Msta and Coalition and in that way to reduce poly-type systems

In front line units these old weapons wont replace anything.

The 2S1s will be converted into 2S34 Hostas... ie 120mm mortars.

Of the remaining systems the 2S3 is being replaced by MSTA and Coalition... all 152mm weapons.

The 2S5 had a long barrel and was used for specific missions at extended range... but now the Coalition performs that role with 70km range guided shells... the Coalition has a longer barrel too so I suspect using the same new ammo in the 2S5 wont lead to even greater range so it would make sense to retire the 2S5, or put it in reserve till all units get coalition... either tracked for heavy units or wheeled for lighter more mobile units.

2S7 pion and 2S4 are being kept in reserve because nothing new would have their specific capabilities (ie 203mm or 240mm weapons).

The new systems should be good for 90% of missions while for the rare cases heavy shells are needed then they are ready in reserve.

2s4 is a mobile mortar as 2s23 and 2s9 Nona (they could be replaces by Boomerang type mobile mortar version)

Would be more likely an armata heavy 240mm mortar replacement for 2S4, but I suspect more accurate longer ranged ammo and 120mm mortar rounds will suffice in vehicles from typhoon light wheeled vehicles, boomerang and kurganets medium vehicles (wheeled and tracked respectively) and armata 120mm heavy vehicles.

Of course armata might have a heavier calibre... I suspect 152mm artillery will be too heavy for tyhoon weight vehicles and the wheeled truck based version should operate with boomerang units.

So the mortar vehicles of armata units might have 240mm weapons or perhaps the 160mm mortars to allow more ammo to be carried. 110kg 240mm shells or 40kg 160mm shells would be devastating... but the latter would be similar on impact to a 40kg 152mm shell... a bit of duplication except for the fact that the mortar could drop them in much closer to the unit.

Perhaps in the future a few Coalition vehicles could be modified to carry 240mm mortars with auto loading and 203mm guns also with autoloading for situations where the heavier shells are needed.

Until the end of 2016 as part of one of the artillery units of the Southern Military District (Southern Military District), two self-propelled artillery battalion high power will be formed, - told reporters in the press service of the district.

One division will be equipped with 240-mm self-propelled mortar "Tulip", the second division arm 203-mm self-propelled artillery systems "Malka". artillery units will be managed using the upgraded commanding control cars, the composition of which, together with optical reconnaissance devices include electronic devices topographic binding on the basis of a global positioning system "GLONASS".



NOTE: this will make the 3rd District to create such units. The Eastern did so last year and the Western had the last two heavy artillery units left in the Russian Army prior to that.

They said the 203mm and 240mm heavy weapons would remain in reserve but it is nice to hear they will be deployed to actual units...

franco wrote:Until the end of 2016 as part of one of the artillery units of the Southern Military District (Southern Military District), two self-propelled artillery battalion high power will be formed, - told reporters in the press service of the district.

One division will be equipped with 240-mm self-propelled mortar "Tulip", the second division arm 203-mm self-propelled artillery systems "Malka". artillery units will be managed using the upgraded commanding control cars, the composition of which, together with optical reconnaissance devices include electronic devices topographic binding on the basis of a global positioning system "GLONASS".



NOTE: this will make the 3rd District to create such units. The Eastern did so last year and the Western had the last two heavy artillery units left in the Russian Army prior to that.

Great . Do you know the name/number of these Pion/Tyulpan units in the Eastern Military District?

Benya wrote:

franco wrote:Until the end of 2016 as part of one of the artillery units of the Southern Military District (Southern Military District), two self-propelled artillery battalion high power will be formed, - told reporters in the press service of the district.

One division will be equipped with 240-mm self-propelled mortar "Tulip", the second division arm 203-mm self-propelled artillery systems "Malka". artillery units will be managed using the upgraded commanding control cars, the composition of which, together with optical reconnaissance devices include electronic devices topographic binding on the basis of a global positioning system "GLONASS".



NOTE: this will make the 3rd District to create such units. The Eastern did so last year and the Western had the last two heavy artillery units left in the Russian Army prior to that.

Great . Do you know the name/number of these Pion/Tyulpan units in the Eastern Military District?

Not yet.

The new 2S4 battalion on maneuvers in the Far East;

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2276306.html

An artillery division in Russia's Far East practiced the deployment of self-propelled mortars 2S4 Tyulpan and struck a mock enemy avoiding the retaliatory strike.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612051048165731-russia-tyulpan-mortars/

The 240mm self-propelled mortar carrier 2S4 Tyulpan continues to be in service with Russian army.

A large-caliber artillery battalion with an Eastern Military District field artillery large unit stationed in the Primorsky Territory has conducted field training with 2S4 Tyulpan 240mm mortar carrier, the district’s spokesman, Navy Captain 2nd Rank Vladimir Matveyev, told TASS.


"The battalion was put on alert and quickly deployed to the assigned area. While on the march, the artillerymen negotiated simulated NBC-contaminated areas and repelled an attack by a simulated enemy commando outfit. Having completed the march on their organic vehicles, the troops trained to deploy their 2S4 Tyulpan self-propelled mortars in firing positions and engage the enemy at varying range, while displacing to alternate positions repeatedly to dodge the simulated enemy’s counterbattery fires," Matveyev said.

Despite its age, the 2S4 Tyulpan 240mm tracked armoured vehicle self-propelled mortar carrier continues to be in service with the Russian army artillery units. It entered in service with the former Soviet army in 1975.

The 240-mm 2S4 Tyulpan self-propelled mortar is designed to deal with strengthened fortifications, buildings sheltering enemy troops and vehicles, command posts, tube, rocket and missile artillery batteries and other materiel inaccessible to direct fire.

The mortar is fired by either electrical or mechanical means and two basic types of 240 mm mortar bomb are fired. A conventional high-explosive fragmentation bomb (3OF-864), which weighs 130 kg and has a maximum range of 9,650 m, and a high-explosive fragmentation rocket-assisted projectile weighing 228 kg with a maximum range of 18,000 m. Minimum range is 800 m.

The 240 mm mortar has powered elevation from +50 to +80º with powered traverse of 10º left and right. The rate of fire at +60° elevation is 1 round in 62 sec. and 1 round every 77 sec. at +80°.

Source: http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/the_240mm_self-propelled_mortar_carrier_2s4_tyulpan_continues_to_be_in_service_with_russian_army_tass_11112161.html

Combat Training of Artillerymen of the 5th Combined-Arms Army in the Primorye Territory

The task of fees, the consolidation of knowledge received during training in the winter. At the same time, they fired live fire, virtually all self-propelled artillery that is in service with the units.
Self-propelled mortar2S4 "Tulip" (the index of GABTU - object 305) is a Soviet 240 mm self-propelled mortar artillery reserve of the Supreme High Command.



http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2512965.html

From the discussion i can see the clear use and niche role the 2s4 has. Though i am not sure what niche role the 2s7 has - i know it might be clear to others but its not so in my mind.

I mean if it can fire 90-100km .... so can mrls
If it can deliver large shell 203mm so do mrls 220mm and 300mm

Im not clear on what 2s7 niche role is

I have read thay they are being used in large number by ukraine - does anyone have any information on their combat performance in that conflict so far?

How is the 2s4 and m240 doing in syria?