Russia and china are finalizing deal for sale of 48 aircraft’s of Sukhoi su 35, but many defence experts around the world are puzzled with Russian stupidity or just lack of business sense. China has a large fleet of Sukhoi su 30MKK and have reversed engineered older Sukhoi su 27K and have named them J-11.China had ordered 200 Sukhoi Su 27 but cancelled the order when 100 aircraft’s were delivered and started manufacturing reversed engineered Sukhoi 27 with their own air frame modifications and also cracked Russian software on Sukhoi 27 to enable it to fire their own locally developed weapons systems.
Yet the money they earned from such sales helped them through a very difficult time financially.
Russia on the other hand made right noises, and Rosoboron export`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin in MAKS 2009 aero show said Russia will investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process, no action and only talk, fuelled speculation of a secret deal between Russian and china on this matter, china was also able to make a reversed engineered Sukhoi 33 for its aircraft carrier without much noise from Russia.
Which suggests they came to some sort of agreement on both matters does it not?
No matter what level of technology was reversed by china, Russia only did lip service and continued supply of AL-31 engines to J-10 Program of China and never objected to resale of Russian built Klimov RD-93 engines to Pakistan for their JF-17 aircraft’s.
Anyone can build and airframe, it is pretty clear that China is not ready to make their own Al-31s or RD-33s (which is what an RD-93 is). If China wants to buy these two engine types... why not make money and sell them to them? If Russia cuts off China it will still make planes and fit them with inferior Chinese engines and Russia will make no money at all. At least this way Klimov and Saturn will be getting work and money...
Purchase of limited (48 Nos) by china is leading to speculation that its token order for reversed engineered aircraft’s to be followed,
And what form will these Su-35s take? What sort of internal systems and equipment will be included? Do you think they might have Su-30MKK2+1 level stuff or will they have stuff ported from the Russian T-50? I am guessing that the stuff in the Chinese Su-35s will not be the same as the Russian Su-35s let alone the PAK FA.
J-10 has been dubbed in Chinese media has better aircraft then Sukhoi 30MKK and Sukhoi 27K, recent test flights of china’s two stealth fighters indicate that china might be shopping for new avionics and other systems (Ew, engines) for this aircraft’s and what better then purchase of latest 4+++ gen fighter aircraft in form of Sukhoi su 35.
Well why not? But then if they can't reverse engineer their engines how are they going to reverse engineer more complicated systems? Plus I rather doubt a Chinese Su-35 would be 4+++ generation even if that made any sense at all.
When it comes to India, Russia surely has a different attitude towards its intellectual property rights; India has been Purchasing Russian weapons for more than 5 decades now but not once has reversed engineered any of weapons but when it comes to TOT of its legally bidding transfers, Russia has always made India dance to its tune, prime examples are of refusal to give India TOT on T-90 Gun barrel where India is forced to use older Gun barrel of T-72 tanks , Even tires for IAF’s Sukhoi Su 30MKI fleet comes from Russia , since they refuse India to source it from Indian companies .
First of all lets get things straight... evidence that these chinese aircraft are copies needs some evidence, and you can't prevent the Chinese from making planes with the same airframe as your aircraft.
Second if India wanted to buy the latest Russian tank gun for their T-90s I am pretty sure some arrangement could be made. India clearly was not prepared to pay the price for the new gun... and keep in mind such things are incredibly expensive because you need to replace lots of gun barrels, and replace existing stocks of spare gun barrels and of course eliminate the existing stocks of ammo and buy all new more expensive ammo to get an improved anti armour capability that might not even exist.
Russian companies have a relationship, so for instance Mig often buys Klimov engines and NIIP radar sets etc etc. They will also have a maker of their tires. When Mig wins a contract should they risk that contract hiring a local company they have no experience with? What would happen if a tire bursts on landing and the aircraft is lost. Nothing against outside companies, but the relationship is two way... Mig will know their tires.
India on the other hand funded many of the technology which are been used by their forces , prime examples are Mig-29K which was first ordered by Indian Navy and after production line was setup from Indian funds , Russian navy went ahead ordered Mig-29K for its own use, abandoning any further development of Sukhoi su33 , it current naval aircraft’s . Russian air force also has ordered Sukhoi su 30SM which is a Variant based on Sukhoi su 30MKI which India had funded.
Actually a sale of the S-300V system to the US in the 1990s actually funded the development of the S-300VM, so should Antei Almaz be more friendly to the US?
The order by India of the Mig-29K included setup costs, and the Russian Navy took advantage of that order to make orders of its own... that is just business.
The Su-30SM has no Israeli or French components and is pretty much a Russianised Su-30MKI, but then the Su-30MKI was just an Su-30 mixed with the Su-35 (original) and Su-37 with its TVC engines and foreign bits added.
India even in Joint ventures like BrahMos had to complete with Russian systems hurting its export potential, India had to enter into Joint venture with Russia on key project like MTA and Pak-Fa on Russian terms, with limited or no contribution from Indian side, India needs to be careful when dealing with Russia now, Indian funded projects might find their way into its enemies hand.
Unless India is prepared to buy all Russian stuff only then it can't demand Russia not sell to whom it likes.
Russia will never sell Brahmos to anyone India disapproves of. That is not to say it wont sell Yakhont to someone India disapproves of, but it is highly unlikely that Russia would sell Yakhont to Pakistan for instance because it knows how that might effect India. Equally with the Su-30MKI any third country wanting to buy needs to get Indias approval first... which is why China was sold the inferior Su-30MKK. Of course some countries might buy the Su-30MKK because it has no Israeli parts.
At the end of the day India has a say in the third party export of Russian things it funds, but clearly India is interested in buying non Russian stuff and so Russia needs to sell to different countries too.
there r lot of concerns here .first russia sells rd93 engines which are not only used by chinese but also pakistan ..
RD-93s are old model RD-33s in the 8 ton thrust class, the new Mig-29Ks have 9 ton thrust third generation RD-33s.
For Russia the RD-93 and the aircraft that use them are not in competition with any Russian product so selling them does not hurt Russia.
now su-35 which will close the gap which india had over china with su30mki....
By the time they enter service in China India and Russia will be introducing FFGAs and T-50s respectively.
argument can be made that by the time this is delivered india and russia will have pakfa and fgfa .. but su30 is the leading fighter for india ..
And the Su-35 is the leading fighter for Russia... you think Chinese Su-35s are going to be the same?
BTW better the devil you know.
i personally feel after reading this india should pull out of the pakfa project before it is too late.. cuz india doesnt really need 5th gen fighter right now ..we should concentrate on amca and make it in india only .
China are trying to buy Su-35s and have a few stealth aircraft at prototype level and you think India should stick its head in the sand over a new stealth fighter of their own?
By 2020 when China has fully operational Su-35s and Russia has PAK FAs and India has Su-30MKIs do you think India will be better off or worse off?
india pulling out of pakfa wont hurt russian project ..since russia is committed to that ...india should instead buy eurofighter and rafale in more numbers .....
any chinese 5thgen fighter can be countered with rafale
That is a big assumption. PAK FA will continue whether India is part of it or not, but I sincerely think Russia and India working together on this will create a much better aircraft than Russia alone, and I don't just mean Indian money and Russian know how.
Without an enormous investment in a lot of areas however I don't think India is ready to make a fully 5th gen fighter on its own either (but then I don't think China or Europe are either).
With PAK-FA India guarantees early delivery - production set up within the country, as well the ability to plug in whatever indigenous components it wants, before the design is finished.
And that is a far better deal than any of the F-35 partners are getting...
None of this would be a problem if Tejas actually had any sort of success Sad - India would not need to buy an expensive, 4th gen stopgap - let alone one that is twin engine and as expensive as Rafale
I am disappointed with it too... it had so much promise and potential... a real missed opportunity.
are u saying what is written in the article is not true ???
All three joint ventures were on budget and on time and India got pretty much out of them exactly what they wanted.
None of those three items are for sale to Pakistan or China.
china will copy russian stuff and sell it to other countries which buy weapons from russia how is it good for bussiness ???
Russia is going for high tech... countries after bargain basement stuff really wont have a Russian option soon, so China is not really competing with Russia directly. The RD-93 powered Chinese plane is an upgraded Mig-21... it is not really much competition for a Mig-29SMT or Mig-35 let alone a Flanker.
If China tried to export a Flanker ripoff in a market where Sukhoi was selling you can bet your bottom dollar that if the Chinese aircraft is selected then legal proceedings would commence.
Of course in modern fighters and weapons cheaper is not always better...
india cannot compell any country for that matter .but isnt the chinese a threat to russia as well ???
In terms of systems India has paid for like the Brahmos and Su-30MKI then India can say yes or no to exports, but if India wants to continue to buy US and French and other systems... which she has every right to do of course, then she can't get snitchy if Russia decides to keep Mig afloat by selling Pakistan Mig-35s for instance. I very much doubt they would of course but can you understand what I am saying... Russia isn't one entity and just because India buys Flankers and upgrades some Migs doesn't mean KBP can't make a little money selling guided artillery shells to someone India doesn't like very much.
It is not to hurt India... Russia will likely refuse deals that clearly will hurt India even if they can make some money, but at the end of the day they do want to make money so deals where there is no obvious danger to Russia or her allies (India included) might go through.
. but for future like 20 years from now india will need a 5thgen fighter of its own ... thats why amca is important
I think India would end up with an inferior fighter if it wants to go it alone. Not only that it will also be expensive too.
yes rafale is expensive but india is willing to pay for it .. also do not forget there is a2nd order for 80 more which is still undecided ..
thats why i mentioned eurofighter .
I doubt Typhoon would be any cheaper and will likely not add any new capabilities over the Rafale, but will add new engines and weapons to complicate logistics.
and i seriously think that these planes can counter any cheap chinese 5th gen fighters ...
the reason i am saying this ..when i was young i copied in maths exam and still failed ..cuz i copied from a dumb guy geek
thats what china has done copying from usa
Don't make the mistake of underestimating Americans... they didn't get where they are today by accident. Just because you don't understand their decisions doesn't make them wrong or stupid... you need to look at why decisions were taken in the first place.
And also , belittling the achievements of your competitors is a common practice in the defense business.
X2.
I wouldn't write off the US or the Chinese engineers and you can bet the Russian engineers have a lot of respect for both.
Just because Chinese aircraft look different or the same as western aircraft perhaps is because they will operate in the same flight envelope so their design looks similar.
The Soviet Buran space shuttle looks very much like the US Space Shuttle... the Soviets knew that NASA spent 2 billion dollars intensively testing shapes and decided on the shape we know as the best with the available technology... the Soviets realised they had tested an enormous range of shapes and so adopted the US shape.
You could say they copied, but that is just a superficial analysis. They are fundamentally different... the US space shuttle is like a C-130 transport... a big heavy plane with a 10 ton payload. To get into space it has an enormous fuel tank strapped to its belly that makes it so heavy it needs two enormous solid rocket boosters to get it off the launch platform. Once it is in space it has these enormous rocket engines that are dead weight for the rest of the journey. Recovering the main fuel tank and repairing it and reusing it is enormously expensive. The solid rockets are also very very expensive and toxic and once they are started they cannot be turned off.
In comparison the Soviet shuttle is a big glider that sits on a big powerful rocket. The Soviet Buran does not have 10 tons of rocket engine dead weight for most of the flight which means much more payload.
Most importantly if you are building a space station you can launch the base rocket with no Buran but a 120 ton load in an aerodynamic fairing which would allow the Russian Buran in theory to build the current ISS in 4-5 launches with entire modules at a time.
It just shows the design advantage of coming second... not to take anything away from the US space shuttle, which is a marvellous vehicle with a very impressive record for safety... considering the number of launches having only two fatal incidents is impressive no matter what the naysayers say.
lack of clarity from india gov on these issues ....
Perhaps because they are not actually issues?
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- India would not need to buy an expensive, 4th gen stopgap - let alone one that is twin engine and as expensive as Rafale 
. And if that's the case it is perfectly OK . But that aside you may have noticed that though people from around the world are members of this forum the forum remains quintessentially Russian - Substance over Style . 
