Infantry Mobility Vehicles

Viktor wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

Viktor wrote:Prices of Lynx, Tigr, Tigr-M and Tigr-6a (this might be this new increased level of protection Russian army has requested)

Anyway most expensive version of Tigr vehicle is more than twice cheaper than Lynx. I think that says it all.

Tigr-6a??

Where'd this come from, details please.

Its basically Tigr-M with enchanted protection.

IVECO - 567K USD,
TIGR - 200K USD,
TIGR-M - 220K USD,
TIGR-6a - 267K USD

if Russia will get licence to produce Iveco it will cost significantly cheaper. I hope they will put Russian engine in to it and modify according to their needs. I don't think it's gonna be such logistical nightmare for Russia, but unified platform like Volk or the one proposed by Kamaz would be better. Tigr looks good and the new engine is a beast, but some users from MVD were complaining about overall quality. I hope it gets developed even further and gets some ied protection

Licence production is usually more expensive than simple local production as you have to pay licence production fees and set up costs etc.

Of course at the end of the day you end up with state of the art production facilities that you can use to produce what ever you want.

I rather suspect there will be no follow on contract for new Ivecios and that those produced will be all they make.

A very capable vehicle but its main capabilities were never tested in Russia (ie no explosion testing or shooting testing was allowed.)

GarryB wrote:Licence production is usually more expensive than simple local production as you have to pay licence production fees and set up costs etc.

Of course at the end of the day you end up with state of the art production facilities that you can use to produce what ever you want.

Thought so, the new facilities would be nice, but there in the process of modernization anyways so it doesn't necessarily have to be the Iveco.

GarryB wrote:I rather suspect there will be no follow on contract for new Ivecos and that those produced will be all they make.

That's pretty obvious, especially now.

GarryB wrote:A very capable vehicle but its main capabilities were never tested in Russia (ie no explosion testing or shooting testing was allowed.)

In short, no armor testing of any kind whatsoever, that's just wrong!!

In short, no armor testing of any kind whatsoever, that's just wrong!!

I know.

Nothing against the Italians, but it is possible that the vehicles presented to the Russians and in licence production might not be the same as the vehicles sold to NATO countries.

More importantly Russian vehicles tend to have to face their own weaponry a lot... especially the newer more powerful stuff, while in Afghanistan and Iraq the enemy has not always been so well equipped with modern stuff.

MOD reportedly cancels order for Iveco/Lynx vehicles, apparently due to not satisfying a number of requirements. The report hasn't been yet confirmed officially, but it cites Viktor Murakovski who is president of the MIC. He says 385 Lynx will be inducted into reconnaissance units (the minimum they have to purchase) but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations.

http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheniya/

Cyberspec wrote:MOD reportedly cancels order for Iveco/Lynx vehicles, apparently due to not satisfying a number of requirements. The report hasn't been yet confirmed officially, but it cites Viktor Murakovski who is president of the MIC. He says 385 Lynx will be inducted into reconnaissance units (the minimum they have to purchase) but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations.

http://rosinform.ru/2013/06/25/italyanskuyu-bronemashinu-rys-snyali-s-vooruzheniya/

The mess comes full circle.

"but will be scrapped once their resources run out. Ha says the Lynx has no place in modern combined arms operations"

Ouch...

Talk about being harsh. It's nice to see the MoD correcting mistakes though.

So whats the final number of Lynx inducted in Russian Army?

385.

I guess with the cancellation of the program they can now use the facilities they were developing for production of the Lynxs to make something else...

Lately the urgency to find efficient responses to the terrorist's lead guerrilla operations in urban environment characterizing several nation in the Middle East has put a great emphasis on the possible battlefield value (and possible export potential) of specialized vehicles such as the BMPT "Terminator" and all its possible iterations.

Strangely it seem that a degree of attention similar to that given to this "kinetic piece" of the puzzling solution to the COIN problem is totally negated to the equally critical battlefield's surveillance and control factor ,so difficult to gain and maintain in urban combat.

Under this point of view SBRM, a truly unique vehicle without corresponding neither in Russia neither abroad, represent in mine opinion, an almost perfect product for COIN operations ,with the potential for huge demand on the international market.


Its sensor suit include almost the entire gamut of active and passive detection channels

- Active radar
- RWR
- TV system
- Thermal
- Acoustic
- Seismic
- Acoustic
- Magnetometric


with capability to collect , cross, process and disseminate data coming from all this channels through remotely placed system and mini-UAVs.









At those outstanding capabilities SBRM add also a

- A 12,7 mm gun
- Active jamming of enemy communication and mine's remote trigger
- A raising mast (to operate in defilade)
- A class 3 ballistic protection (7,62 mm)


Its highly integrated search and control capabilities (from detection of the precise position of a group of sniper from its acoustic signature, to the position of moving terrorists at the second level of a ruined building through seismic and thermal channel ,to tracking of a group armed with RPGs on a far terrace through its mini UAVs etc... ) would result in a simply enormous increase of the neutralization rate in COIN , even more if paired with specialized vehicles like BMPT.

MoD should seriously examine not only the merit of a wide adoption of SBRM ,but also the prompt creation of an exportable model (naturally together with a decoy versions, so to lure enemy groups ,attempting desperate operations to remove the critical piece ,in previously prepared ambushes) ,it would quickly become one of the most demanded piece on offer by Rosoboronexport.

I do not know much about the armor on this vehicle but this vehicle will also be ideal for low intensity urban conflict.

Sujoy wrote:I do not know much about the armor on this vehicle but this vehicle will also be ideal for low intensity urban conflict.

Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .

If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .

Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2007/mrap/

Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .

Mindstorm wrote:


Lately the urgency to find efficient responses to the terrorist's lead guerrilla operations in urban environment characterizing several nation in the Middle East has put a great emphasis on the possible battlefield value (and possible export potential) of specialized vehicles such as the BMPT "Terminator" and all its possible iterations.

Strangely it seem that a degree of attention similar to that given to this "kinetic piece" of the puzzling solution to the COIN problem is totally negated to the equally critical battlefield's surveillance and control factor ,so difficult to gain and maintain in urban combat.

Under this point of view SBRM, a truly unique vehicle without corresponding neither in Russia neither abroad,  represent in mine opinion, an almost perfect product for COIN operations ,with the potential for huge demand on the international market.


Its sensor suit include almost the entire gamut of active and passive detection channels

- Active radar
- RWR
- TV system
- Thermal
- Acoustic
- Seismic
- Acoustic
- Magnetometric


with capability to collect , cross, process and disseminate data coming from all this channels through remotely placed system and mini-UAVs.






 


At those outstanding capabilities SBRM add also a

- A 12,7 mm gun
- Active jamming of  enemy communication and mine's remote trigger
- A raising mast (to operate in defilade)
- A class 3 ballistic protection (7,62 mm)


Its highly integrated search and control capabilities (from detection of the precise position of a group of sniper from its acoustic signature, to the position of moving terrorists at the second level of a ruined building through seismic and thermal channel ,to tracking of a group armed with RPGs on a far terrace through its mini UAVs etc... ) would result in a simply enormous increase of the neutralization rate in COIN , even more if paired with specialized vehicles like BMPT.

MoD should seriously examine not only the merit of a wide adoption of SBRM ,but also the prompt creation of an exportable model (naturally together with a decoy versions, so to lure enemy groups ,attempting desperate operations to remove the critical piece ,in previously prepared ambushes) ,it would quickly become one of the most demanded piece on offer by Rosoboronexport.

Very good Recon vehicle, i remember seing them on MP.net, surprised that the MoD hasn't ordered them in bulk yet.  

I would suggest there is likely already variants of this vehicle already planned in the appropriate chassis.

There would be little point in having this Tigr based vehicle operating with armata based vehicles, so transfering its equipment and sensors and other bits and bobs to an armata, and a kurganets and a boomerang and a typhoon would make a lot of sense. This light vehicle based version would make a lot of sense for export though any country that already has an equivalent light vehicle might want their vehicle adapted rather than adding a new vehicle type to their fleet. Of course if their existing light vehicle is obsolete they might take the opportunity to replace their entire light armour fleet in which case the Tigr will be fine.

This thing was ordered by the Interior Ministry. I would imagine army has some different requirements.

Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .

I don't see anything in his post that seems radical... low intensity COIN operations generally rarely involve well equipped professional enemies with plenty of RPGs and explosives for making IEDs.

Using this vehicle is little different from the US using unarmoured Humvees.

If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .

The idea behind all the sensors is to detect threats before they present themselves, plus I rather doubt this vehicle will be operating alone.

Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

Clearly wrong... hostile environments are not in themselves dangerous... and this vehicle is armoured to protect it from small arms fire.

Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .

An MRAP that can survive RPGs and IEDs of any type does not exist. MRAPs have some capability to protect people inside it from IEDs up to fairly specific size weights but unless you are up against morons the enemy will quickly work out how much explosive they need to get the job done and use that or a little bit more.

Suggesting that you can design a small light vehicle that is safe from IEDs and RPGs is silly... even 70 ton western tanks are not safe from IEDs and RPGs.

This thing was ordered by the Interior Ministry. I would imagine army has some different requirements.

Perhaps similar requirements but based on different vehicle platforms to keep compatibility and commonality.

Another Tigr with a remote weapon system:



Can I draw your attention to this:



Note top left of the second image shows the mount is compatible with the PKMT 7.62mm MG, the Kord 12.7mm HMG and the AGS-40 Balkan 40mm grenade launcher!

NickM wrote:The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

Of course ....with some outstanding results  

Feast your eyes on this







Seems too many people subscribe to your half baked ideas . Enjoy !

NickM wrote:
Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .

If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .

Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2007/mrap/

Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .

Please NickM , please . We are attempting a serious debate on this subject, ok ?

You cannot accuse, wrongly, the post of Sujoy of the shallow mistakes contained just in your !  


MRAP are class of vehicles for transport and patrol , strictly designed and optimized to offer good mine/IED resilience.

Them was urgently ordered by US Army and inducted in the Iraq and Afghanistan theatre of war in response to the very high mortality rate of theirs operatives for effect of the road's side IED and mines placed on patrol route of NATO's forces on the ground.

That said, its value as fighting vehicles in general and ....even worse...... as fighting vehicle in urban combat against hiding or defilated terrorists armed with PKM and RPG is next to ZERO !  

The STANAG 4569 of typical MRAP vehicles in service fluctuate between 2 and 3 and theirs weapon suit is near to the unarmed ; all of that for about 500.000 US dollar at piece.


SBRM is an unique SURVEILLANCE vehicle capable to track precisely enemy position using practically any mean and channel for detection - TV, thermal, active radar, passive radar, electro-contrast, magnetometric, seismic, acoustic, UAV, - cross them and generate and disseminate data, for the fighting vehicles and infantry, on the exact position of hidden or defilated enemies.

An enemy terrorist group, merely moving from a level to another of a far  building, or shooting a single bullet from a broken wall at 1 km of distance, or stationing hidden near a window or attempting to climb on the upper terrace to shot RPG ,would surrender instantly (and unconsciously) theirs position to one of the sensors of the SBRM , allowing a T-72B3 a BMP-3 or BMPT (those are real fighting vehicles.....) or a infantry squad armed with RPO "Shmel" present in the area to easily neutralize the terrorists in a matter of seconds.

The question is does it have a data link to transfer all necessary digital information of spotted threats to other platforms?

All vehicles will be net centric with threats appearing on screens as they are detected/identified.

NickM wrote:

Sujoy wrote:I do not know much about the armor on this vehicle but this vehicle will also be ideal for low intensity urban conflict.

Coz you say so ? You my non friend need to do some serious research before you post such comments on an open forum .

If this vehicle takes a hit from an RPG it will blow the ass off the occupants till kingdom comes .

Hope you read this - The only vehicle capable of operating in a hostile urban environment and surviving small arm fire is the MRAP .

http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2007/mrap/

Only the MRAP can survive IED's and RPGs and also has the firepower to turn the heat on the attackers .

RPG would definitely will be lethal here, but so it is for MRAP vehicles. Tandem warhead will pierce through any MRAP that exists. Ideal vehicle for that is HAPC. But I doubt that this baby will be used like that. If it was created it means there is a need for this type of vehicle, Israel already employs these kind systems and it proven to be successful. I imagine it will be perfect for cordoning/hunting down insurgents while patrolling the border. Those rats tend to hide their arses in the mountains and forests and flee every time it gets hot. Usually there are few terrorists and not an army so finding them is a hard task.

Not to mention -
Cost efficiency. By this point even engine consumption matters. Why? It's not Afghanistan- Caucasus isn't war zone. All the bloody work is still done by guys with RPOs and Ak-74s in their hands to minimise collateral damage. People don't live in the mud huts so forget about evacuating all village and wiping it off. There are no tanks on the streets anymore. Most of situations involve interior troops finding insurgents before they do something stupid. People still want to live in that neighbourhood so You can't bomb it or use 125mm around. Even RPO is used when there is no other solution. You want to make sure that there is no one slipping out and well to be honest, most of the weapons they find are makarovs, saw-off, old AKs, hunting rifles, grenades. RPG are rare and if You want to acquire one probably You will stumble FSB insider who will lead operators to Your door step.

Sorry for raising this old thread but just came across this article from June 9th:

The Special Forces unit of Russia’s Central Military District will receive a total of ten new Tiger armored vehicles. This statement was made by Colonel Yaroslav Roschupkin, a spokesman for the Central Military District, on Friday.

Earlier this year, Col. Roschupkin reported that the Central Military District was to receive 24 Tigers by the end of 2014. Last year, Deputy Defence Minister Yury Borisov said Russian Armed Forces’ demand for Tigers had reached unprecedented levels following the modernization of Tigers that eliminated the previous advantages of Iveco’s Lynx light motor vehicles.

“The Tolyatti Special Forces division will receive a total of ten new armored GAZ-233014 Tigers. In accordance with the state arms procurement program, the vehicles will be supplied by the end of 2014,” Col. Roschupkin pointed out.

So the original Tigrs were inferior to the Lynx, but further improvements led to it being better in the areas they thought were important so now they in high demand... that is good.

There are no words about Lynx for a long time. Is it still in production from the first batch of ~700 vehicles, from the first contract? They said they will not cancel it, because of costs.

all in the title... I was quite surprised in march 2014 to see so many tigrs in crimea, and, more and more among many units in russia.

I love these vehicles!

and about the iveco LMV (or whatever it is), how about it? in production and in service?


and, it's true that almost no UAZ-469 remain truly in service? (like, almost all replaced by 4x4 ural / gaz / kamaz trucks), i don't seem to see any of those lately.... How about the procurement of the UAZ "tigr" ? i recall some units had them with PKP and AGS-30


more questions!

-how about the GAZ "vodnik" family, are any of them in service, and, is it still produced? i like a lot this machine
-how about the BPM 97 "vystrel", also in service? will be replaced?