1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia

They did come up against MiG-29s in Serbia, which were soundly defeated due to massive AWACS/EW/numeric advantages.

And that is what they trade on... the MiG-29 failed in Serbian hands so it must be crap.

Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent. Lets ignore that the aircraft that got airborne were basically on their own with faulty equipment that had not be serviced for years.

It is a bit like a game of cricket where one team has 2 or three players up against a team with 20 players. It does not matter who any of those players are... even if the three are the best players who ever played and the 20 players are fairly ordinary, because there are no match officials and those 20 players can "play" it any way they want.

Swap those MiGs to fully serviced and up to date F-16s with pilots fully trained to use them effectively and the results would not have been much different... with AWACS the NATO side knew exactly who was in the air and where and could send groups of fighters to intercept. I am sure the leader of that group took the opportunity to launch an AMRAAM from max range so he could get crowing rights for shooting down a real enemy aircraft... there is no chivalry involved... they were there to murder men defending their country from foreign international aggression. A moral war fought immorally. Ironic.

GarryB wrote:
...
Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent.
...

WTF you are talking about???
This is simple BS.

Till the last day cc network was working.

[quote="GarryB"]

Lets ignore the fact that the entire command and control network was non existent. Lets ignore that the aircraft that got airborne were basically on their own with faulty equipment that had not be serviced for years.

GarryB ur wrong about network and command....trough entire war this network and command exist and was operational. Our pilots wasnt alone in air when they airborne they know where they go and also they gets information from command. On March 26th 2 our MiG was airborne and was send first to the east of Batajnica air port, to attack group of NATO planes, then after couple of minutes command gave them new targets west from their position. They turn back and go to chase that NATO group. Both our planes was shot down in Bosnia air space. Cap first class Zoran Radosavljevic was killed in his MiG 29, Major Slobodan Peric avoided one AMMRAM but next hit him, and he ejected when he found that the plane are uncontrollable. Our command didnt gave them order to back to airport when the Maj Peric asked them that they go over the line (state border)...because of that we lost one of our pilots for nothing....on both planes radars stop workking after pilots turn them On, on their max power...On Maj Peric MiG SPO didnt work also, on Cap Radosavljevic MiG SPO work and he tells Peric that they are both was engaged by NATO plane...

Our best MiG29 pilot at that time Predrag Milutinovic Grof out maneuver dozen NATO AMMRAM rockets with his MiG 29. in single combat mission...but he was shot down by our SAMs when he was back to Nis airport at low altitude....

WTF you are talking about???
This is simple BS.

Till the last day cc network was working.

So what you are saying is that Serbia had a full and complete air picture 24/7 and was able to direct its aircraft to attack threats without interference?

Really?

So it was incompetent pilots?

GarryB wrote:

WTF you are talking about???
This is simple BS.

Till the last day cc network was working.

So what you are saying is that Serbia had a full and complete air picture 24/7 and was able to direct its aircraft to attack threats without interference?

Really?

So it was incompetent pilots?

No country have 24x7 total awareness of air situation in war. But that do not meant that CC was destroyed. That is pure BS.

Guys this entire argument you have here is pointless.

Back in '99 we could have had fleet of 100 F-22 Raptors in the air the moment war started and it would have still made no difference whatsoever because numerical superiority of NATO was insane.

There were more enemy jets coming at us than those theoretical 100 Raptors would have had missiles loaded on them.

You will need different example for this discussion.

Do you have an average of how many nato fighter were in the air at the same time ?

They had enough AWACS aircraft and regional assets to detect Serb aircraft taking off 24/7.

It wouldn't matter which Serb aircraft got airborne whether it was 3 MiG-29s with non functioning radars and obsolete export model AAMs or 100. If it was 100 they would simply sit 60km away and pick them off with AMRAAM. If it was 3 then send in a dozen F-16s to attack from behind also with AMRAAM.

The whole purpose of a command and control system is to find the enemy and to concentrate your forces to deal with them.

With AWACS coverage you can watch their major airfields and when something takes off you can send appropriate assets to take them out. It means you don't need to constantly patrol air space in the hope of catching them in the air.

No country have 24x7 total awareness of air situation in war. But that do not meant that CC was destroyed. That is pure BS.

A command and control system that has no idea where the enemy is and cannot communicate with its fighter pilots is not a functioning system.

Those serb pilots fought practically blind and is not a reasonable way to judge the performance of the aircraft they flew or them as pilots.

It would take serious courage to get into an aircraft knowing it likely does not have a functioning radar against the best NATO can send.

GarryB wrote:

Do you have an average of how many nato fighter were in the air at the same time ?

They had enough AWACS aircraft and regional assets to detect Serb aircraft taking off 24/7.

It wouldn't matter which Serb aircraft got airborne whether it was 3 MiG-29s with non functioning radars and obsolete export model AAMs or 100. If it was 100 they would simply sit 60km away and pick them off with AMRAAM. If it was 3 then send in a dozen F-16s to attack from behind also with AMRAAM.

The whole purpose of a command and control system is to find the enemy and to concentrate your forces to deal with them.

With AWACS coverage you can watch their major airfields and when something takes off you can send appropriate assets to take them out. It means you don't need to constantly patrol air space in the hope of catching them in the air.

No country have 24x7 total awareness of air situation in war. But that do not meant that CC was destroyed. That is pure BS.

A command and control system that has no idea where the enemy is and cannot communicate with its fighter pilots is not a functioning system.

Those serb pilots fought practically blind and is not a reasonable way to judge the performance of the aircraft they flew or them as pilots.

It would take serious courage to get into an aircraft knowing it likely does not have a functioning radar against the best NATO can send.

We more than once engaged own aircraft in the air, that says enough on whole this topic.

We more than once engaged own aircraft in the air, that says enough on whole this topic.

And a layman would say that was proof they were useless.

Someone who thinks for themselves however... like myself, would suggest that this is just proof they took off blind.

History is full of examples of pilots getting excited and shooting down their own wingman with missiles... even when they have functioning radars and ground control...

The Soviets already had emitters that operate with major ground based radar that emit the same signal as the radar they are operating with... if a threat ARM is detected the main radar stops radiating and the decoy transmitter activates directing fake signals at the incoming threat and also other nearby objects... a pencil beam directed at a tree can make the tree look like a radiating object... if you can get the ARM to hit the tree then mission accomplished.

If the missile hits your decoy then mission accomplished too.

Most of the time however the TOR or Pantsir will be intercepting that incoming ARM and the main SAM radar will continue operating while the main SAM will be shooting down the aircraft that launched the ARM in the first place.

Isos wrote:@Miltarov I think it was you who said serbian air defence used mig 21 radar to protect their land based radar from anti radiation missiles.

Was it successfull ? How hard is it to do this and how was it actually done? Did they switch on mig 21 radars when they detected the lunch or were they always turned on ?

Does russia have similar methodes to protect its air defence systems ? Would it be good to mount cheap radars on land drones that would go some hundreds metres from the main radars and could be switch on to attract anti radiation missiles ?

Old retired radars were fixed for such roles few times, radars from anti-ship missiles... radars from retired MiGs... everything was tried. Was fairly successful lets say. They would turn them on when long range radars detected intrusions, to get attention from our valuable sources of radiation lets say. To try and make them waste anti-rad missiles. We made even few dozen of "real" radar decoys.

Pointless in our situation for most part but better something than nothing.

Try looking up Gazetchik.... it is one system designed to defend against ARMs.

Isos wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Isos wrote:@Miltarov I think it was you who said serbian air defence used mig 21 radar to protect their land based radar from anti radiation missiles.

Was it successfull ? How hard is it to do this and how was it actually done? Did they switch on mig 21 radars when they detected the lunch or were they always turned on ?

Does russia have similar methodes to protect its air defence systems ? Would it be good to mount cheap radars on land drones that would go some hundreds metres from the main radars and could be switch on to attract anti radiation missiles ?

Old retired radars were fixed for such roles few times, radars from anti-ship missiles... radars from retired MiGs... everything was tried. Was fairly successful lets say. They would turn them on when long range radars detected intrusions, to get attention from our valuable sources of radiation lets say. To try and make them waste anti-rad missiles. We made even few dozen of "real" radar decoys.

Pointless in our situation for most part but better something than nothing.

So it is possible to use a basic radar like the one from mig-21 and program it to lock onto target just to make them lunch ARM.

And what was the average detection range of serbian ground based radars against f-16, f-15, mirages and AWACS ?

What do you think of the P-18 radar ? It is said to be good against LO aircraft like f-117. Do you know its range against the f-117 ?

And what do you think of this upgrade ? http://www.kbradar.by/en/products/radiolokatsiya/modernizatsiya-i-remont-rls-i-zenitnogo-raketnogo-vooruzheniya/99/

Do you think its worth upgrading such radar or is it better to buy new ones ? What is typical price of long range survlliance radar like a modern one ?

I couldn't find lot of info on the net so I ask you here as you worked on that. I hope you don't mind for all those questions. Thanks.

The Soviets already had emitters that operate with major ground based radar that emit the same signal as the radar they are operating with... if a threat ARM is detected the main radar stops radiating and the decoy transmitter activates directing fake signals at the incoming threat and also other nearby objects... a pencil beam directed at a tree can make the tree look like a radiating object... if you can get the ARM to hit the tree then mission accomplished.

If the missile hits your decoy then mission accomplished too.

Most of the time however the TOR or Pantsir will be intercepting that incoming ARM and the main SAM radar will continue operating while the main SAM will be shooting down the aircraft that launched the ARM in the first place.

Do you have exemples of such systems and some links to data sheets.

Our most valuable long range detection means were P12 and P-15M2 radars, together with AN/TPS-70 only one of which was destroyed as it was very mobile and seems it was quite resilient to their spoofing. So in general we could know they are coming before they crossed the border, as there are no means for them to launch anti-radiation missiles from longer ranges radars were mostly safe in later periods of the war. But our aviation was useless except J-22s that could fly in Lo-Lo-Lo configuration to support infantry on Kosovo now and then.

Detection ranges in ideal situation of those radars is about 300km aganist fighter sized object, in our case about 250 as they prefered formations so we could "see" them despite unfavourable terrain for radar usage. Fixed radar sites were trashed in start so.... Official story is that F-117A was first detected by P-18.

Those are obsolete radars to start with, but in limited financial situation its better than nothing, in Serbia we have similar project to modernise P series radars led by Mihajlo Pupin institute and some private companies like MTT- INFIZ (check their site they have like 10 or so different components for modernisation of radars and russian SAM-s)-



http://www.mtt-infiz.com/e_raketni-sistemi-radarski-sistemi-serije-p.html - you can chedk this too

Maximum range you can expect to detect something in airliner/transport size, with modern "metric" radars is up to 600-700km.

Russians had 34Ya6E Gazetchik E MAWS, Decoy and Countermeasures System:



KRTZ-125-2M Anti-Radiation Missile Decoy System:



You can read more about those here: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-DefAids.html

There is also OU-1 (Otvlekayuscheye ustroystvo) made to accompany OSA systems.

When its about Serbian/Yugoslavian systems there are few... which are not that well known around the globe to say at least

MD-04 radar decoy, built by once mighty Kosmos company from Banjaluka, it was modified SS-N-2 ”Styx” radar with auxilary power unit.

Later during the war those systems were suplemented by few on the go made devices like IRZ-1, IRZ-21 and IRZ-22. Those were built and developed by above mentioned MTT INFIZ from Zemun. IRZ-1 was based on components from impulse generator from V-601P/5V27 Neva missile. Two later modifications were better and more effective as those were based on RP-22 from Mig-21 but were very heavy and very powerful, made to simulate high-power radars with output power of even more than 200kW (for IRZ-22).

The 20th anniversary of the NATO military operation against Yugoslavia

On the news portal MK.RU published material deputy head of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) Konstantin Makienko, dedicated to the 20th anniversary of the NATO military operation against Yugoslavia in 1999.


The wreckage of an unobtrusive Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk strike aircraft (US Air Force number 82-0806) of the US Air Force downed by the 3rd missile battalion of the 250th anti-aircraft missile brigade of the Air Force and Air Defense of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia 03/27/1999 (c) the FRY Defense Department



March 24 marks 20 years since the start of NATO’s aggressive military campaign against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The war was unleashed by Western countries under the pretext of "forcing" the Serbian leadership in Belgrade "to the world" with armed Albanian separatists, who revolted in the autonomous province of Kosovo, which was part of Serbia. The deputy head of the Center for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), military expert Konstantin Makienko argues on the political and military results of the “last European war”.

The NATO rally against Yugoslavia in 1999 was the first case of a direct large-scale military operation under the direct auspices of the North Atlantic Alliance, as well as the first essentially interstate armed conflict in Europe after World War II.

The Yugoslav campaign of 1999 became an important stage in the development of modern means of warfare, demonstrating the possibilities of a large-scale air offensive operation carried out without direct action by a group of ground forces. At the same time, the NATO air operation was carried out mainly with the use of high-precision guided weapons, marking the final transition to the rule of high-precision weapons in the arsenal of modern military aviation.

In total, the West has used up to 10,000 controlled weapons in Yugoslavia. Since the war of 1999, all subsequent air operations of the leading Western states were carried out almost exclusively with the use of precision weapons.

In the course of the 78-day air operation, dubbed the "Allied Force", the West won a complete victory and eventually fully achieved the goals that it set for itself - though not at the expected speed. These goals are the withdrawal of Yugoslav forces from Kosovo and the further weakening of the Serbian “remnants” of the former Yugoslavia. The regime of Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic did not survive the loss of Kosovo and fell in 2000 already. The new leadership of Serbia and Montenegro headed for rapprochement with the West. Kosovo itself in 2008 declared full independence, quickly recognized by leading Western countries.

All this was achieved by the NATO countries at the cost of minimal losses and costs - including just two American military planes shot down by the Serbian air defenses (F-16CJ and stealth fighter F-117A). The United States and NATO have once again demonstrated their political will and desire for complete military domination, combined with the ability to quickly and effectively deploy and use their military potential.

The Alliance's promotion of moderate and limited political campaign goals - NATO did not set out to invade Yugoslav territory and its occupation, or even change the regime - was relatively quick to force the enemy to retreat - it was enough to impose a course of action on Belgrade under the full dictation of the West.

Thus, the main lesson of the events of 20 years ago in Yugoslavia is that modern air power has shown the ability to fully determine the outcome of a modern limited war.

The experience of the 1999 campaign clearly showed that such modern air power can only be countered by its own significant and technically advanced potential of military aviation and air defense.

Weak and technically backward Yugoslav air defense, frozen in development at the technical level of the mid-70s, with outdated C-125M and Kub-M anti-aircraft missile systems, old radars and just one squadron of MiG-29 fighter jets (also in simplified export configuration) could not seriously resist the modern massive air strike of Western countries. She suffered serious losses with minimal results. The Yugoslav air defense forces were forced to go to the ambush-partisan "wandering" actions aimed more at saving their money and people than to inflicting damage to the enemy, and as a result were able to achieve, in fact, only half-case successes in the fight against NATO aircraft.

The use of ground-based air defense systems in any case deliberately gives the initiative into the hands of the enemy’s aviation. An important conclusion of 1999 was yet another proof that it was precisely combat aircraft that should become the main means of disrupting the enemy air offensive. Only an active struggle for air supremacy by the forces of its own fighter aviation can radically complicate the situation for the enemy in the sky.

This means that our military aviation must be in quantitative and qualitative terms at the level of aviation of the advanced NATO countries. This requires that Russian military aviation be adequate to the highest modern technical level requirements of the aircraft themselves, their engines, radars, weapons, communications and control systems.

The large-scale process of re-equipping the Russian military aviation over the past decade has significantly increased its technical and operational level, which was vividly demonstrated by the successful use of our air and space forces in Syria. However, this cannot be stopped, since the most advanced opponents of the Russian aviation are the most advanced powers headed by the USA, which demonstrated their air power in Yugoslavia 20 years ago. The Yugoslav lesson shows the full price of a possible military-technical gap from these powers. Russia does not have the right to such a lag.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3581903.html

For the 20th anniversary of the Kosovo war, Serbian TV has made a couple of pretty good shows on 2 of the border battles in 1999...there's english subs

Battle of Koshare



Battle of Pashtrik

Tsavo Lion wrote:Update: https://lenta.ru/news/2019/09/06/admiral/

I wonder if Papa Dragon will now apologize about calling them losers knowing now they made those batteries, not imported them.

W/O the RF arms & mil. help, the Serbs would be even bigger losers than they r now.

Well I would suggest the batteries they used were made in a Soviet state that was not Russia, so if that were the case then if they are going to buy from a now foreign state, or perhaps it was the Ukraine so now it is not possible to buy from them I would suspect the cost of developing the technology vs ordering some from China or South Korea would make a lot of sense.

They are spending money on high tech batteries like Li ion batteries and the like for AIP use, but if you can buy cheap lead acid batteries on the international market of the required standard and cheap enough why bother making your own.

Ironic that they hydrogen gas byproduct could be used in hydrogen fuel cells...

W/O the RF arms & mil. help, the Serbs would be even bigger losers than they r now.

Can't blame all Serbs for one US fanboy ready to sell the farm to the US if he lived in Greenland...

miketheterrible wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:Update: https://lenta.ru/news/2019/09/06/admiral/

I wonder if Papa Dragon will now apologize about calling them losers knowing now they made those batteries, not imported them.

You are right, I might have jumped to conclusion without taking into account Russian track record of competence so maybe I should...

Oh wait, I did take Russian track record of competence into account and since fu*king up something like this is entirely in line with aforementioned track record I will not be apologizing for making logical assumption

GarryB wrote:...Can't blame all Serbs for one US fanboy ready to sell the farm to the US if he lived in Greenland...

Yes you can because while it's God given right of every Greenlander to live in glorified zoo without​ any hope for future and with record suicide rates all in the name of Gaia the goddess of Earth​, most Serbs would look into alternatives after a while

Tsavo Lion wrote:W/O the RF arms & mil. help, the Serbs would be even bigger losers than they r now.

Oh really? Russians sent us arms and military help?

Holy sh*t, what a turn of events!!! When did this happen, I must have missed it?

Oh really? Russians sent us arms and military help?
Holy sh*t, what a turn of events!!! When did this happen, I must have missed it?

https://nypost.com/1999/03/25/russians-defied-u-n-to-arm-serbias-butchers/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/aug/03/balkans.unitednations

https://balkaninsight.com/2018/04/05/new-serbian-russian-military-deal-good-thing-04-04-2018/

Russia has supplied Serbia with military equipment, raising concerns in the Balkan region.
In the 1990s during the bloody breakup of the former Yugoslavia, Serbia was at war with neighbors Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Serbia has already received six MiG-29 fighter jets from Russia.
https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-says-blocks-russian-arms-shipment-to-serbia/30077540.html

..according to the AP News Agency, the 10 armoured vehicles flew to Serbia last week on Russian military transport planes. ..
The Serbian armed forces have already received six MiG-29 fighter jets from Russia and expect the delivery of additional attack and transport helicopters by the end of this year.
Russians say that by supporting Belgrade militarily, they strengthen the security of the region, so they are going to help Serbia even in the future. “Russia is ready and will always be ready for military and technical cooperation with Serbia,” the Russian ambassador attending the delivery ceremony on Monday said. He added that they “will continue working in this direction.”
Read more at: https://dailynewshungary.com/hungary-helped-russia-to-transport-arms-into-serbia/

Military commentator Miroslav Lazanski - who has recently been appointed as the country's new ambassador to Russia - assumes that Serbia will receive the Pantsir (surface to air) missile systems.
https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2019&mm=05&dd=07&nav_id=106774

http://rs.n1info.com/English/NEWS/a505492/Wilson-delivery-of-Russian-arms-to-Serbia-is-irresponsible.html