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    PAK-DA: News

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:19 pm

    But if its subsonic won't that make it extremely vulnerable to modern ADS for dropping guided and general purpose bombs?

    It wont be used if there is a chance it could be shot down.

    If there is a theatre conflict where the enemy has decent air defences then cruise missiles can be used to wear down the defences.

    Looking at previous conflicts Russia could have used it over Chechnia or Afghanistan with impunity where its exceptional long range and large payload would allow it to support units for days with responsive and accurate fire power.

    Even in the conflict with Georgia operating it with dedicated jammer aircraft should have allowed it to attack Georgian airfields with impunity for fairly high altitudes with a couple of cheap glonass guided bombs... of course a couple of Su-35s or Mig-35s could have done the same.

    I personally really think supercruising or at least supersonic is the way to go. Like Garry said not too much added expense and there's also experience flying such aircraft but with much more mission versatility and survivability.

    Plus there is commercial value in developing such technologies for commercial aircraft...

    For maritime patrol I think they should focus more on the Be-200 and make an ASW MS-21 or Tu-204 variant.

    They would be fine for replacing the Be-12 Mail and Il-38 May, but to replace the Tu-142 you would need a rather bigger aircraft like an Il-96 or PAK DA.

    Although a large subsonic flying wing could be a good AWACs aircraft.

    Plus its heavy payload capacity could be used for extra fuel in the tanker role.

    But a supersonic PAK DA would be able to do another mission : Long range heavy interception. I think reviving the concept of the Tu-160P is a good idea.

    Perhaps a modified version with scramjet engines added with a greater wing sweep?

    Actually the SR-71 was canceled because the plane became next to Useless once Satellite Technology Improved.. on top that Russia could shut down them anyway with their Migs.

    The SR-71 was brought back into service several times because it is just much more flexible than satellites.

    Satellites in geostationary orbits are too high up to get a good view and lower flying satellites only spend a max of about 6 minutes over a target area every 90 minutes. In comparison the SR-71 can orbit around an area of interest and change direction etc.

    Even today there are only a few systems that would reliably defeat an SR-71 and they are expensive and not widely deployed.

    They are actually developing the SR-72.. So clearly your mistaken ,they have the funding.. not only for that but for more other expensive projects...

    Spy drone... clearly large high speed manned aircraft are still too expensive... why should Russia waste all that money if even the US wont... and we know how the US likes to waste money...

    And create a Dozen of Hypersonic bombers that could fly very High Altitudes in space beyond 95% of the competition defenses.. if not 100%.. Because Aegis Missiles Defenses cannot counter targets with high maneuverability.

    If a dozen was enough then they have 13 odd Tu-160s. The point is to replace them because they are not numerous enough to be a viable force and are expensive to maintain and operate.

    A fleet of about 80-100 PAK DAs would be ideal... especially if there were another 50 tanker models and 15-20 AWACS models and a couple of jammer and recon models.

    But really i believe it will be better for Russia to invest in game changing Weapons that could be used in any minor or major conventional conflict against a hostile Nation, and not expensive Nuclear Submarines that will never be used.

    It is interesting that the Russian navy is useless and can be written off yet the US navy is all powerful and should be the main focus of the Russian military...

    The thing is that with Sigma on every Russian Navy vessel and modern SAMs and AESA radars the new Russian Navy is going to be one big AEGIS system with the addition of the legenda satellite system to support it.

    The introduction of hypersonic bombers will result in the development of airborne and ground base laser systems (hypersonic platforms will fly high and be detectable at extended ranges using IR technology). Not cheap but able to shoot down a dozen or so bombers fairly easily... and then you have no navy and little else to defend yourself because you spent all your money on fast planes.

    Unlike the US, Russia doesn't need hypersonic bombers to kill people globally within hours... that is a US goal... not a Russian goal. Russia just needs to make sure it can destroy any enemy that attacks it... which means long range bombers carrying cruise missiles, plus SLBMs and ICBMs.

    Trying to keep up with the US's capacity to murder people anywhere within hours is pointless and counter productive... and expensive.

    The Russians must go for something hypersonic. If not a bomber, than a multirole fighter able to hunt and shutdown a SR-72.

    A hypersonic aircraft will be able to manouver... but not like a fighter... a S-500 battery should be able to deal with any hypersonic bomber.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    But if its subsonic won't that make it extremely vulnerable to modern ADS for dropping guided and general purpose bombs?

    It wont be used if there is a chance it could be shot down.

    If there is a theatre conflict where the enemy has decent air defences then cruise missiles can be used to wear down the defences.

    Looking at previous conflicts Russia could have used it over Chechnia or Afghanistan with impunity where its exceptional long range and large payload would allow it to support units for days with responsive and accurate fire power.

    Even in the conflict with Georgia operating it with dedicated jammer aircraft should have allowed it to attack Georgian airfields with impunity for fairly high altitudes with a couple of cheap glonass guided bombs... of course a couple of Su-35s or Mig-35s could have done the same.

    Any particular reason, why IL-96 bomber version couldn't be used as PAK-DA then?
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:46 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 

    Financing of the project to create complex long-range aircraft has already begun
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:39 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 

    PAK DA will be subsonic and can carry more weapons than the Tu-160

    LINK
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    eridan


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    Post  eridan Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:07 pm

    if that turns out to be true and if russia's range requirements remain similar to what tu160 had (i dont see why they'd be less) we could be looking at a 250-300 ton mtow aircraft.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:16 pm

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=226031&d=1393842605

    Omg! Without teh stealth back paint, J-20s amazing skin doesn't look so amazing anymore!

    Shocked! So Shocked!

    EDIT: wrong thread, but whatever.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:20 am

    I guess they are not losing time  Very Happy 

    One of the key elements for future aviation complex long-range aircraft (PAK DA) - a radar system - is already being developed in Russia

    LINK
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    Post  collegeboy16 Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:28 am

    I hope this Pak Da is both effective and affordable. tech has come by leaps and bounds since the F-22 and the B-2 were designed, a comparable or even better design that can be much much cheaper is very possible. It would be really funny if Russia has replaced all its strategic bombers with Pak-Da- while the other guy is stuck with B-52s, and a handful of B-2/1s
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    Post  Viktor Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:32 am

    Nice  thumbsup 

    "Tupolev" completed the design of a new bomber
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:28 pm

    It will most probably be a co-production with China!!
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    Post  xeno Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:01 pm

    No, it won't.
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:03 pm

    OK, we can bet  Cool 
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    Post  eridan Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:11 pm

    while it may not be really happen, it would be pretty prudent for both sides to cooperate on a project like that.
    Both want a large bomber, and it's a project that likely won't run more than 200-250 airframes total, for both sides combined. Development of high tech stealth bomber is expensive and production run won't help bring down costs a lot, so it will all be quite inefficient use of money to develop two projects then make 100 or so pieces per project for each country.

    If they could get their differences aside, they'd see there's a lot to profit from if they actually do work together. But seeing how Tupolev already finished the design, it seems unlikey. Unless Chinese counterpart is also at similar stage, strongly influeced by hypothetical and open cooperation of two sides.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun May 04, 2014 4:04 pm

    Interesting looks from CHARLY BLOG

    PAK-DA: News - Page 10 W5TYe9c
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon May 05, 2014 12:51 pm

    Interesting... would add horizontal tail surfaces to improve control and also potentially add future growth potential as super cruising bomber...

    (passing through the sound barrier results in a serious shift in centre of gravity... which means lots of tail down/tail up control authority is needed... a flying wing doesn't have that level of control so supersonic flight is not possible AFAIK.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sat May 10, 2014 3:40 pm

    According to BMPD blog, KAPO. Gorbunova tipped that this (picture above from charly blog) might be the appearance of PAK-DA

    And again about the PAK DA
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    Post  GarryB Mon May 12, 2014 12:12 pm

    PAK-DA: News - Page 10 Gu5dnq10

    The second plane from the left looks rather a lot like this one does it not?


    PAK-DA: News - Page 10 44469710

    Of course the above is just a wind tunnel model testing shape.

    There is a smaller photo of the above design with podded engines beneath the fuselage which suggests a civilian transport derivative could be developed... which would certainly reduce costs and improve commonality if it shares other non secret features.

    The top of this page photo has too large a tail structure, the second photo with the butterfly tail (ie 45 degree angle tail surfaces that perform the same function as both horizontal and vertical tail surfaces) would be an improvement and could perhaps allow transonic flight... a very low drag design could be made to supercruise at perhaps mach 1.4 which would vastly improve performance without making it enormously expensive (like hypersonic speed would).

    Still if they can make a mach 4.3 MiG-31 replacement then perhaps new engine technology could produce a double speed Blackjack...  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil russia 
    Hannibal Barca
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Mon May 12, 2014 12:19 pm

    Modifying a mig31 with the sole purpose to make mach 4 at operational altitude and fly high climb fast characteristics and some stealth capabilities is not as expensive as it may sound.
    Whether it would be a step forward is an other matter though.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon May 19, 2014 12:05 am

    What's funny about those pics of the models with the kids is that their designs at once suggest something like flying ramjets with wings; which is a contradiction as ramjets are associated with hypersonic speeds while large control surfaces, especially in the form of those huge wings on the middle model - suggest a much lower speed.
    It's as if the the aircraft is compromise between a high-speed design and a low-speed design, which doesn't make sense; although thinking deeper; it's just the optimal configuration for a very low-drag aircraft as GazB mentioned.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon May 19, 2014 11:20 am

    Modifying a mig31 with the sole purpose to make mach 4 at operational altitude and fly high climb fast characteristics and some stealth capabilities is not as expensive as it may sound.
    Whether it would be a step forward is an other matter though.

    Doubling the flight speed of an interceptor greatly increases the area it can cover and defend. Added stealth performance is superfluous and not worth any investment... a huge big AESA on the other hand would be well worth the money.

    What's funny about those pics of the models with the kids is that their designs at once suggest something like flying ramjets with wings; which is a contradiction as ramjets are associated with hypersonic speeds while large control surfaces, especially in the form of those huge wings on the middle model - suggest a much lower speed.

    Ramjets suggest very high speed, but actually some of the first aircraft tested with Ramjets were I-15 Polikarpov Biplanes, whose flight speed was boosted by about 55km/h with the use of two ramjets under the lower wings.

    Of the two aircraft visible in the photo above I would say the left has a relatively small wing and is likely a very high speed design, while the design on the right is basically a flying wing and would likely be subsonic.

    Remember TSAGi only test shapes and are not responsible for any particular aircraft program... their job is to test shapes at different speeds to find optimum shapes for low drag and high lift in different speed ranges.

    These models probably don't have any propulsion developed for them yet, though I would expect variable cycle turbojet/scramjet for the left and turbofan for the right.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu May 22, 2014 9:36 am

    Russian’s Air Force to Receive New Generation Long-Range Bomber in 2023

    VORONEZH, May 22 (RIA Novosti) – The Russian Air Force will start receiving its first PAK DA next generation long-range bomber in 2023, Russian Air Force Commander-in-Chief Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev said Thursday.

    Earlier reports said PAK DA bombers could be supplied to the Russian Air Force approximately by 2020.

    “The maiden flight should be performed in 2019. State tests and supplies will be completed in 2023,” Bondarev said.

    The head of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), Mikhail Pogosyan, told reporters earlier that the full-fledged construction work would start already this year.

    Russia’s strategic Air Force operates a total of 32 Tu-95MC6, 31 Tu-95MC16 and 13 Tu-160 bombers. Altogether, they are capable of carrying 850 long-range cruise missiles.

    It is expected that the new bomber will be able to penetrate through modern air defenses and suppress them. PAK DA will be equipped with the newest complex of the radio electronic combat and high-precision weaponry.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:14 am

    Nice  thumbsup 

    Russia selects engine supplier for new bomber: report
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:49 am

    Excellent  thumbsup 

    Commander in Chief of the Russian Air Force: PAK DA will go into production in the years 2021-2022

    and artificial inteligence for the missiles

    "Missiles are with built-in intelligence, they will analyze the traffic situation and a radar environment, she will decide at what height, how fast and in what direction to go. Such missiles already there, we're working on them," - said the commander in chief characteristics of PAK YES
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:20 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 

    PAK DA made its first flight in 2019
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    Post  RTN Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:52 am

    Viktor wrote:
    "Missiles are with built-in intelligence, they will analyze the traffic situation and a radar environment, she will decide at what height, how fast and in what direction to go. Such missiles already there, we're working on them," - said the commander in chief characteristics of PAK YES

    So , do these missiles already exist , if yes which one , or is he saying that they are developing such missiles ?

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