PAK-DA: News

sepheronx wrote:Darn, that is a shame. Fooling people.

Would have been good if it was true. I would wager that it would make a good replacement for Tu-22M.

eplacement for Tu-22M could be the new Tu-160M2. PAK-DA is supposed to be subsonic

Can't the Su-34 replace the Tu-22M3 in many missions? It is a much smaller aircraft, but its engines are more efficient; also, it carries the biggest fuel volume among the Flanker family, and is the only of the family which can carry external fuel tanks, so with all this I guess that its range could be quite close to that of a Tu-22M3.

Svyatoslavich wrote:Can't the Su-34 replace the Tu-22M3 in many missions? It is a much smaller aircraft, but its engines are more efficient; also, it carries the biggest fuel volume among the Flanker family, and is the only of the family which can carry external fuel tanks, so with all this I guess that its range could be quite close to that of a Tu-22M3.

i don't think that Su-34 can carry Kh-32 missile or can carry the same amount of FAB bombs as the Tu-22M

George1 wrote:

Svyatoslavich wrote:Can't the Su-34 replace the Tu-22M3 in many missions? It is a much smaller aircraft, but its engines are more efficient; also, it carries the biggest fuel volume among the Flanker family, and is the only of the family which can carry external fuel tanks, so with all this I guess that its range could be quite close to that of a Tu-22M3.

i don't think that Su-34 can carry Kh-32 missile or can carry the same amount of FAB bombs as the Tu-22M

If I wanted to carry 2-3 heavy AShMs at a supersonic dash to send a USN Nimitz class on a one-way trip to the mid-Atlantic ridge, I know which aircraft I would want....  the Tu-22M3 is a potent long-range naval strike aircraft, and the Su-34, as good as it is, will not deliver the same level of capability.

I think the idea is that if you make the plane subsonic only and of the most optimum aerodynamic shape... is the flying wing, which is all lift and no excess drag you could get away with a 100 to 120 ton aircraft where on shorter range theatre missions... ie 6,000km range.... 3Kkm there and 3kkm back with a heavy load of bombs and weapons... say 40 tons plus, that if you scaled back that payload to a strategic load of perhaps 12 tons of cruise missiles (say 6 at 2 tons each) you could replace the 28 tons difference in weapon load with more fuel to double the flight range to 12,000km, or 6kkm there and 6kkm back.\

In other words you could use the one aircraft for both theatre heavy bombing and strategic nuclear cruise missile strike missions.

that was the plan anyway... especially before the new versions of NK-32 were even talked about and the engines were supposedly going to be the 18 ton thrust engines from the mature PAK FA.

Personally I think before with the PAK DA replacing everything it needed to have a 40 ton payload for short range missions, but with the Tu-160 going back into production and its engines getting a substantial upgrade that the current problem of replacing the White Swan, Backfire, and Bear, the new White Swans can do the supersonic stuff both in strategic and theatre missions, so the PAK DA just needs to be cheap to operate and stealthy... the main conflicting problem is with internal carriage... it is necessary for stealth and also for very high speed... but for very high speed you want as small an aircraft as possible... a serious design conflict.

Ironically having large long range hypersonic cruise missiles would be ideally externally mounted... but that creates drag and increases RCS.

With the Bear the internal weapon rotary bay was designed for the Kh-55, but the later missiles are bigger and therefore can't be carried internally. What happens when new conventional ordinance is developed and whoops it doesn't fit in the PAK DA or Tu-160M2?

The Bear and Backfire could carry large missiles externally but the new aircraft likely wont.

it will be a bit like Afghanistan where Tu-16s were used to drop FAB-9000s experimentally because no other plane could carry them because of their size. (The Tu-16 was designed to carry enormous nuclear weapons internally and therefore had the internal space for large conventional weapons)...

GarryB wrote:
Personally I think before with the PAK DA replacing everything it needed to have a 40 ton payload for short range missions, but with the Tu-160 going back into production and its engines getting a substantial upgrade that the current problem of replacing the White Swan, Backfire, and Bear, the new White Swans can do the supersonic stuff both in strategic and theatre missions, so the PAK DA just needs to be cheap to operate and stealthy... the main conflicting problem is with internal carriage... it is necessary for stealth and also for very high speed... but for very high speed you want as small an aircraft as possible... a serious design conflict.

Ironically having large long range hypersonic cruise missiles would be ideally externally mounted... but that creates drag and increases RCS.

With the Bear the internal weapon rotary bay was designed for the Kh-55, but the later missiles are bigger and therefore can't be carried internally. What happens when new conventional ordinance is developed and whoops it doesn't fit in the PAK DA or Tu-160M2?

Some time ago I was watching a video abotu creation of MiG-31, An interesting opinion was expressed by constructors: if plane is going just below 3Ma thermal problems with current materials are not a special problem.

Maybe Tu-160M2 will be not hypersonic but supersonic in area like 2,8 Ma? Visible whne doing a dash run? OK but if you combine with ceiling this make AAD envelope fairly small. Not to mewntion F-35 flying ~1800 km/h vs scaping Tu-160M2 with 3000km/h on 25,000m

Russia to Deliver Advanced Strategic Bomber to Air Force in 2024-2025

Еhe Russian Long-Range Air Force deputy commander said that Russia’s prospective complex of distant aviation, a proposed next-generation strategic bomber design, will carry out its first flight in 2020-2021 and four years later will be delivered to the army.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Russia’s prospective complex of distant aviation (PAK DA), a proposed next-generation strategic bomber design, will carry out its first flight in 2020-2021 and four years later will be delivered to the army, the Russian Long-Range Air Force deputy commander said Saturday.

"As for rearmament, the aircraft fleet that we have at present will be changed for the PAK DA. According to the plan, the first flights will take place in 2020-2021, later the test flights are scheduled, and the deliveries to the army will begin in 2024-2025," Maj. Gen. Anatoly Konovalov told reporters.

The project is currently being developed by the Tupolev Design Bureau.

The work on creating the PAK DA was launched in 2009. The military intended to receive a single type of long-range bomber to replace the current Tu-160, Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20151219/1032030622/russia-prospective-bomber-flight.html#ixzz3urjJ42L7

Russian Stealth Supersonic Aircraft PAK FA Revolutionizes Aviation [CIAM v Kuznetsov. Engine War]
The breakthrough engine was designed by the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) in Moscow.

"An operational module of the supersonic combusting ramjet will probably be the most eye-catching piece at the CIAM booth," the institute reported.
In addition, the company plans to present dozens of other interesting projects.

The CIAM is one of the world leader’s in developing supersonic combusting ramjets. The Institute created Europe’s largest range to imitate flight conditions at speeds of Mach 5-7.5 (6,125-9,187 kmh).

"For rig tests, the Institute has designed a module of a hydrogen supersonic combusting ramjet. During tests under simulated flight conditions at speeds of Mach 7.4, the engine delivered forward thrust," the Institute explained.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150823/1026084410/russia-creates-breakthrough-jet-engine.html#ixzz3v2mohC7p

Old read. Mach 7.5 engine

Ru go NK32  

Book. wrote:

Russian Stealth Supersonic Aircraft PAK FA Revolutionizes Aviation [CIAM v Kuznetsov. Engine War]
The breakthrough engine was designed by the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) in Moscow.

"An operational module of the supersonic combusting ramjet will probably be the most eye-catching piece at the CIAM booth," the institute reported.
In addition, the company plans to present dozens of other interesting projects.

The CIAM is one of the world leader’s in developing supersonic combusting ramjets. The Institute created Europe’s largest range to imitate flight conditions at speeds of Mach 5-7.5 (6,125-9,187 kmh).

"For rig tests, the Institute has designed a module of a hydrogen supersonic combusting ramjet. During tests under simulated flight conditions at speeds of Mach 7.4, the engine delivered forward thrust," the Institute explained.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150823/1026084410/russia-creates-breakthrough-jet-engine.html#ixzz3v2mohC7p

Old read. Mach 7.5 engine

Ru go NK32  

Mach 7.5 engine?  what about that GarryB in your "too expensive" for Russia to go for
hypersonic flight.   You know what will be expensive Garryb?  That Americans militarize
space and Russia is left behind.and that no longer Russia can send any satellite or rocket in space without Americans shotting it down stealthily. Russia needs to be ready to dominate space not only with civilian space rockets ,but with military space planes too.. Only when you get Americans into a wall ,with military superiority ,is only when they will change its mind about their plans of militarization of space that have not changed.

Head of RuAF: We expect to perform first test flight of PAK DA (replacement of Tu-160) in 2021 or earlier.

https://twitter.com/KURYERSAT/

Although the article mentions 'subsonic' it is not a quote from Bondarev.

Work on the PAK DA strategic bomber is coming along at a good pace, according to the Chief of the Russian Air and Space Forces, Viktor Bondarev. The prototype PAK DA may hit the skies before 2021, the chief added. “Work on the PAK DA is coming along and the pace is suiting us. The challenge remains to raise the prototype into air by 2021, but if all continues at the current pace, it will take off even earlier,” Bondarev said.

Russia’s prospective complex of distant aviation (PAK DA) is a proposed next-generation strategic bomber design. The project is currently being developed by the Tupolev Design Bureau. The PAK DA project was launched in 2009. The military intended to receive a single type of long-range bomber to replace the current Tu-160, Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3.

The PAK DA will be a unique project in the history of Russian aviation since it will be a "flying wing" aircraft, a design never used before by Russian engineers. It will fly at subsonic speeds and the large wingspan and design features will provide the jet with reduced visibility to radar.

Earlier, the Long-Range Aviation Commander Lieutenant-General Anatoly Zhiharev talking about PAK DA said that, “This is a fundamentally new plane with a new sighting and navigation system. This plane will be equipped with the latest communication systems and electronic warfare, and will have little visibility to radar.”

Representative of the concern “Radio-electronic technology” Vladimir Mikheyev said that the new modification of the strategic missile is based on the principle of integrated modular avionics, allowing components to replace the on-board electronics and restore each other.

The bomber will be able to set a course without the help of satellite signals. This will be possible thanks to the inertial navigation system, which will determine the course and speed of the aircraft due to the high-precision data acquisition devices — laser gyroscopes and quartz accelerometers.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160124/1033644203/russia-next-generation-bomber.html#ixzz3yBwwFm4d

"The advanced strategic long-range aircraft`s (Russian acronym: PAK DA) prototype may take its maiden flight before 2021, according to the Russian Aerospace Forces` (AF) chief, Colonel General Viktor Bondarev. "The works on PAK DA are being done. We are satisfied with the progress rates. There is a task to conduct the (PAK DA`s) first flight in 2021. If the reached progress rates are maintained, the bomber will take the flight before the targeted time", Bondarev said.

Mentioning the revival of the Tu-160 (NATO reporting name: Blackjack) strategic aircraft production, he pointed out, that the related works were being done "at full speed".

"The Russia`s government and the Ministry of Defense have taken the appropriate decision to revive the Tu-160`s production. The related works are being done at full speed. There are no schedule delays. The aircraft will conduct its first flight at the appointed date. The Armed Forces will get the planes in the required time", Bondarev said.



Previously, PAK DA was planned to take the first flights in 2019-2020. The supplies of the aircraft to the Russian Armed Forces were scheduled for 2023-2025. However, due to the decision to revive the production of Tu-160, the PAK DA`s developing time was shifted."

Source: http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-defense-security-news/global-news-2016/january/2334-russia-s-next-gen-strategic-bomber-pak-da-could-take-to-the-skies-in-2021.html

Mach 7.5 engine? what about that GarryB in your "too expensive" for Russia to go for
hypersonic flight. lol1 You know what will be expensive Garryb?

They have an engine that can operate at mach 7.5... that is just the first step.

They need to build an aircraft out of materials that will withstand friction heat of several thousand degrees C. Mach 3 flight requires either titanium skin or stainless steel... the former being very expensive and the latter being very heavy. What do you think Mach 7 flight will require.

More to the point just because the engines can operate at mach 7.5 and provide thrust at that speed what current aircraft shape can operate at 0km/h up to that speed? Or are you suggesting they launch them like ICBMs?

An aircraft starting from stationary on a runway that can take off and accelerate to mach 7.5 and fly half way around the world (that is what strategic bomber need to be able to do) and back with a payload of weapons still has to be designed and built and tested.

Previously the barrier was Mach 3... mainly because of engines. With that barrier overcome with scramjet engines then the next barrier will be heat management... and we really don't know what speed that will be...

There is a very long way to go till a hypersonic bomber can be practical... these engine technologies will be used in cruise missiles and likely MiG-41 interceptors first...

Trying to get past mach 3 with turbojet engines would be like trying to get past mach one with propellers.

That Americans militarize
space and Russia is left behind.and that no longer Russia can send any satellite or rocket in space without Americans shotting it down stealthily.

Hahahaha... Americas domination of space would let them shoot down anyones satellites with impunity... How?

Secretly shooting down satellites is something anyone could do...

The PAK DA being subsonic or hypersonic has no bearing on shooting down satellites.

@AK-REX Pretty image but that is the T-4MS which was rejected before the design of the Tu-160 was accepted... I doubt they will go back to it now.

The people need to open the mid to very significant improvements from the Tu-160 to the Tu-PAK-DA. We will see all the technological improvements of 40 years in a single step.

Do not expect small changes. We will see very important improvements. Hipersonic speed? Maybe.

eehnie wrote:
The people need to open the mid to very significant improvements from the Tu-160 to the Tu-PAK-DA. We will see all the technological improvements of 40 years in a single step.

Do not expect small changes. We will see very important improvements. Hipersonic speed? Maybe.

Actually judging by reports from last few years PAK-DA will be subsonic. Flying wing designs cant be super/hypersonic by default anyways.

Militarov wrote:

Is it PAK-DA ?

max steel wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Is it PAK-DA ?

Just an artists interpretation.

max steel wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Is it PAK-DA ?

God knows, they have plenty of renders around some reminding more of B2 some borrowing more from TU160. What we know for sure is that it will be flying or blended wing design, which are made to operate at subsonic speeds.

Most common render tho is this one and alike:



They are all naturally made by artists and aviation enthusiasts.

Militarov wrote:Most common render tho is this one and alike:



They are all naturally made by artists and aviation enthusiasts.

This one comes from the Tu-4MS project.

And the other is coming from here...

https://thempreport.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/nasa-unveils-future-aircraft-designs-stunning-models/

Definitely nothing related to the PAK DA.

Stay tuned on the subsonic flying wing idea using a NK-32 variant as powerplants and with an electronic suite developped by KRET on the basis of the PAK FA's one. That's basically all which is known for now about the PAK DA

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:
The people need to open the mid to very significant improvements from the Tu-160 to the Tu-PAK-DA. We will see all the technological improvements of 40 years in a single step.

Do not expect small changes. We will see very important improvements. Hipersonic speed? Maybe.

Actually judging by reports from last few years PAK-DA will be subsonic. Flying wing designs cant be super/hypersonic by default anyways.

In the US would be very happy if this is true. After 40 years Russia going one step back...

eehnie wrote:

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:
The people need to open the mid to very significant improvements from the Tu-160 to the Tu-PAK-DA. We will see all the technological improvements of 40 years in a single step.

Do not expect small changes. We will see very important improvements. Hipersonic speed? Maybe.

Actually judging by reports from last few years PAK-DA will be subsonic. Flying wing designs cant be super/hypersonic by default anyways.

In the US would be very happy if this is true. After 40 years Russia going one step back...

Well B2 is subsonic, so will be Northrop Grumman B-21. Their speed might be subsonic, but that allowed them other advantages like longer range, bigger payloads and lesser signature in both radio and IR spectrum. Should reduce operational costs too at least in theory. Anyways PAK-DAs has main goal to replace Tu-95 which is subsonic, probably partially TU22M but supersonic bomber roles will be, at least we hope, performed by new built TU160M2.

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:
The people need to open the mid to very significant improvements from the Tu-160 to the Tu-PAK-DA. We will see all the technological improvements of 40 years in a single step.

Do not expect small changes. We will see very important improvements. Hipersonic speed? Maybe.

Actually judging by reports from last few years PAK-DA will be subsonic. Flying wing designs cant be super/hypersonic by default anyways.

In the US would be very happy if this is true. After 40 years Russia going one step back...

Well B2 is subsonic, so will be Northrop Grumman B-21. Their speed might be subsonic, but that allowed them other advantages like longer range, bigger payloads and lesser signature in both radio and IR spectrum. Should reduce operational costs too at least in theory. Anyways PAK-DAs has main goal to replace Tu-95 which is subsonic, probably partially TU22M but supersonic bomber roles will be, at least we hope, performed by new built TU160M2.

I think you are getting too short in your expectation. Do you think Russia needs about a decade of research and development to make a subsonic strategic bomber?

We can not be talking seriously about the new Tu-PAK-DA having lower performance and capabilities than the current Tu-160. Russia has not designed a subsonic strategic bomber since 1959, only some version of previous designs. Russia is designing supersonic strategic bombers even before this data. I do not expect Russia returning back to subsonic strategic bombers after 65 years (in 2024).

The US follows their own military strategies, that sometimes are different, and not always are the best option. I have never been too impressed with the B-2 bomber, because when its radar hidding capabilities be surpased it becomes very very vulnerable and as consequence, severely outdated.

eehnie wrote:

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:

Militarov wrote:

eehnie wrote:
The people need to open the mid to very significant improvements from the Tu-160 to the Tu-PAK-DA. We will see all the technological improvements of 40 years in a single step.

Do not expect small changes. We will see very important improvements. Hipersonic speed? Maybe.

Actually judging by reports from last few years PAK-DA will be subsonic. Flying wing designs cant be super/hypersonic by default anyways.

In the US would be very happy if this is true. After 40 years Russia going one step back...

Well B2 is subsonic, so will be Northrop Grumman B-21. Their speed might be subsonic, but that allowed them other advantages like longer range, bigger payloads and lesser signature in both radio and IR spectrum. Should reduce operational costs too at least in theory. Anyways PAK-DAs has main goal to replace Tu-95 which is subsonic, probably partially TU22M but supersonic bomber roles will be, at least we hope, performed by new built TU160M2.

I think you are getting too short in your expectation. Do you think Russia needs about a decade of research and development to make a subsonic strategic bomber?

We can not be talking seriously about the new Tu-PAK-DA having lower performance and capabilities than the current Tu-160. Russia has not designed a subsonic strategic bomber since 1959. Russia is designing supersonic strategic bombers even before this data. I do not expect Russia returning back to subsonic strategic bombers after 65 years (in 2024).

The US follows their own military strategies, that sometimes are different, and not always are the best option. I have never been too impressed with the B-2 bomber, because when its radar hidding capabilities be surpased it will be very very vulnerable and as consequence, severely outdated.

Why do you think building supersonic bomber takes more time to develop compared to subsonic one? As an engineer i find this logic very weird. And how exacly subsonic equals less advanced than supersonic. Its just perspective of approach. Speed was favoured during Cold War for high and low lvl air defence penetration, today speed wont rly help you much aganist integrated air defence systems.