Russian SAM Systems Exports Thread

Sorry to post this here...but I have some questions for you Vladimir about S-300 and S-400 if you're informed about it and if you're willing to answer?!

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Sorry to post this here...but I have some questions for you Vladimir about S-300 and S-400 if you're informed about it and if you're willing to answer?!

What about it?

Can you tell me the price of one S-300PMU2 Favorit system (1 command post, 1 aquisition radar, 8 batteries, each battery = 8 TEL'+ one guidance and illumination radar and 1 all altitude radar)?
Can you tell me the price of the same or similar compostiton of S-400 system and can you tell me if S-300PMU2 missiles can be fitted with active radar homin instead of Track via Missile homing?
THNX

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Can you tell me the price of one S-300PMU2 Favorit system (1 command post, 1 aquisition radar, 8 batteries, each battery = 8 TEL'+ one guidance and illumination radar and 1 all altitude radar)?
Can you tell me the price of the same or similar compostiton of S-400 system and can you tell me if S-300PMU2 missiles can be fitted with active radar homin instead of Track via Missile homing?
THNX

Export Cost...

S-300PMU2 = $125-150 million
S-400 = $500 million

The long range active radar homing missile of the S-400 is not able to be used by the S-300PMU2 due to tracking limitations.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Can you tell me the price of one S-300PMU2 Favorit system (1 command post, 1 aquisition radar, 8 batteries, each battery = 8 TEL'+ one guidance and illumination radar and 1 all altitude radar)?
Can you tell me the price of the same or similar compostiton of S-400 system and can you tell me if S-300PMU2 missiles can be fitted with active radar homin instead of Track via Missile homing?
THNX

Export Cost...

S-300PMU2 = $125-150 million
S-400 = $500 million

The long range active radar homing missile of the S-400 is not able to be used by the S-300PMU2 due to tracking limitations.

Are you sure about the price? Is it for command vehicle, aquisition radar and 8 batteries (8 launchers +2 radars, guidance and all altitude)? Because I read that that same system that I stated above with 64 launchers 8 guidance radars, 8 all altitude radars, aquisition radar and command post was exported to China for almost 1 billion $ (920 million $), maybe it was plus the price of something else but I doubt it! If you're not sure can you please check somewhere or ask someone that knows!
Because if thats the price...then...DAMN...Serbia should buy 2-3 S-400 systems or 3-4 S-300PMU2 Favorit's! XD XD

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Can you tell me the price of one S-300PMU2 Favorit system (1 command post, 1 aquisition radar, 8 batteries, each battery = 8 TEL'+ one guidance and illumination radar and 1 all altitude radar)?
Can you tell me the price of the same or similar compostiton of S-400 system and can you tell me if S-300PMU2 missiles can be fitted with active radar homin instead of Track via Missile homing?
THNX

Export Cost...

S-300PMU2 = $125-150 million
S-400 = $500 million

The long range active radar homing missile of the S-400 is not able to be used by the S-300PMU2 due to tracking limitations.

Are you sure about the price? Is it for command vehicle, aquisition radar and 8 batteries (8 launchers +2 radars, guidance and all altitude)? Because I read that that same system that I stated above with 64 launchers 8 guidance radars, 8 all altitude radars, aquisition radar and command post was exported to China for almost 1 billion $ (920 million $), maybe it was plus the price of something else but I doubt it! If you're not sure can you please check somewhere or ask someone that knows!
Because if thats the price...then...DAMN...Serbia should buy 2-3 S-400 systems or 3-4 S-300PMU2 Favorit's! XD XD

The S-300PU2 price is for one regiment divided by the total regiments of the Iranian contract. The S-400 price is a speculated one that was offered to the Chinese. I quoted the price of a regiment of which I think you are confused as to what a missile battery actually entails. A regiment is 1 C-post, 1/1 engagement/aquisition radars, and 8-12 TELs with up to 48 missiles. A battery is three regiments. When you say eight batteries, that number is insane.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:Can you tell me the price of one S-300PMU2 Favorit system (1 command post, 1 aquisition radar, 8 batteries, each battery = 8 TEL'+ one guidance and illumination radar and 1 all altitude radar)?
Can you tell me the price of the same or similar compostiton of S-400 system and can you tell me if S-300PMU2 missiles can be fitted with active radar homin instead of Track via Missile homing?
THNX

Export Cost...

S-300PMU2 = $125-150 million
S-400 = $500 million

The long range active radar homing missile of the S-400 is not able to be used by the S-300PMU2 due to tracking limitations.

Are you sure about the price? Is it for command vehicle, aquisition radar and 8 batteries (8 launchers +2 radars, guidance and all altitude)? Because I read that that same system that I stated above with 64 launchers 8 guidance radars, 8 all altitude radars, aquisition radar and command post was exported to China for almost 1 billion $ (920 million $), maybe it was plus the price of something else but I doubt it! If you're not sure can you please check somewhere or ask someone that knows!
Because if thats the price...then...DAMN...Serbia should buy 2-3 S-400 systems or 3-4 S-300PMU2 Favorit's! XD XD

The S-300PU2 price is for one regiment divided by the total regiments of the Iranian contract. The S-400 price is a speculated one that was offered to the Chinese. I quoted the price of a regiment of which I think you are confused as to what a missile battery actually entails. A regiment is 1 C-post, 1/1 engagement/aquisition radars, and 8-12 TELs with up to 48 missiles. A battery is three regiments. When you say eight batteries, that number is insane.

Well I'm good with technology and capabilities but not with formations, but this is what I got frome the net:

China has finalised a $980- million contract with Russia's Rosoboronexport to acquire the Favorit [S-300PMU2] air-defence missile system (ADMS): the first export sale for the system since it became available on the international market in 2001.
The contract includes an 83M6E2 vehicle-mounted command post, eight 90Zh6E2 batteries, one set of 48N6E2 missiles, hardware support tech.

CP include: combat control system 54К6Е2; 64N6E2 detection radar (300km, s-band).
Each of 90Zh6E2 batterie include: multifunctional 30N6E2 illumination and guidance radar (x-band), 96L6E all-altitude detection and target designation multiphased array radar; and 8 launchers 5P85SE in Transport-Launch Containers (TLC) with four missiles in each, mounted on MAZ platform (8x8).

Combat control system 54K6E2 also enable control of S-300PMU and S-300PMU-1, which were bought by China earlier. Favorit also could engage targets with 48N6E missiles, used in S-300PMU systems

ADMS Favorit provides:

engagement of aerodynamic targets at ranges of up to 200 km;

engagement of ballistic tagets at ranges of up to 40 km;

engagement of low-flying targets at ranges of up to 28-38 km;

Min/max target altitude, km 0.01/27

Number of simultaneously engaged targets 36

Number of simultaneously guided missiles 72

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:

Well I'm good with technology and capabilities but not with formations, but this is what I got frome the net:

China has finalised a $980- million contract with Russia's Rosoboronexport to acquire the Favorit [S-300PMU2] air-defence missile system (ADMS): the first export sale for the system since it became available on the international market in 2001.
The contract includes an 83M6E2 vehicle-mounted command post, eight 90Zh6E2 batteries, one set of 48N6E2 missiles, hardware support tech.

CP include: combat control system 54К6Е2; 64N6E2 detection radar (300km, s-band).
Each of 90Zh6E2 batterie include: multifunctional 30N6E2 illumination and guidance radar (x-band), 96L6E all-altitude detection and target designation multiphased array radar; and 8 launchers 5P85SE in Transport-Launch Containers (TLC) with four missiles in each, mounted on MAZ platform (8x8).

Combat control system 54K6E2 also enable control of S-300PMU and S-300PMU-1, which were bought by China earlier. Favorit also could engage targets with 48N6E missiles, used in S-300PMU systems

ADMS Favorit provides:

engagement of aerodynamic targets at ranges of up to 200 km;

engagement of ballistic tagets at ranges of up to 40 km;

engagement of low-flying targets at ranges of up to 28-38 km;

Min/max target altitude, km 0.01/27

Number of simultaneously engaged targets 36

Number of simultaneously guided missiles 72

The last kontrakt with China for $1 billion was for eight battallions. This order would consist of 8 sets of radars total, and 6-8 TELs per battallion. The cost of one system would be $125 million at the kontrakt price. Due to inflation, the current price would be around $150 million.

The S-300PU2 price is for one regiment divided by the total regiments of the Iranian contract. The S-400 price is a speculated one that was offered to the Chinese. I quoted the price of a regiment of which I think you are confused as to what a missile battery actually entails. A regiment is 1 C-post, 1/1 engagement/aquisition radars, and 8-12 TELs with up to 48 missiles. A battery is three regiments. When you say eight batteries, that number is insane.[/quote]

Has Iran received the same? is one regiment sufficient for Iran? One reg being 8 vehicles with four launchers on each? How far apart can they be from the radars etc?

crod wrote:
Has Iran received the same? is one regiment sufficient for Iran? One reg being 8 vehicles with four launchers on each? How far apart can they be from the radars etc?

From the reports I've read, Iran has recieved some command equipment but not the mobile launchers. The make up of a regiment is dependant on the customer as to how many TELs they want, 6-8. The number of tubes on the TEL depends on how big the missile is. Launchers can be several kilometres from the radar, but this isn't wise since it would lessen the CIWS appointed to protect it.

So 1 83M6E2 command post, 1 30N6E2 illumination and guidance radar, 1 96L6E all-altitude phased-array target designation radar and 8 TEL's or 12 TEL's(4 missiles each, 200km range, 27 km altitude) would cost 150 million, right? Did I get it right?
Also want to ask for your opinion, do you think that 48N6E2 TVM homing is effective enough?
I ask this because I know that US missiles that have TVm homing are pretty bad (Patriot)! And I also know that its easy to jam TVM homing (but I know that you made some modifications in that area, so that S-300PMU2 is very hard to jam, especially the data lnk) and if not jam then you just need to put an obstacle between the radar and the aircraft/missile! Also radar must always be on when guiding the missile, and its an easy target for anti-radiation missiles! So tell me do you think that TVM is good enough?
I'm asking this because S-300PMU2 has never been used in actually combat and high-risk situations...so we dont know its true power yet..althoug its great, but it hasnt confirmed it yet!

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:So 1 83M6E2 command post, 1 30N6E2 illumination and guidance radar, 1 96L6E all-altitude phased-array target designation radar and 8 TEL's or 12 TEL's(4 missiles each, 200km range, 27 km altitude) would cost 150 million, right? Did I get it right?

Maybe up to 8 TELs, 12 would be more money. Differing missile combos is different cost but it gives you a basic range.

Also want to ask for your opinion, do you think that 48N6E2 TVM homing is effective enough?
I ask this because I know that US missiles that have TVm homing are pretty bad (Patriot)! And I also know that its easy to jam TVM homing (but I know that you made some modifications in that area, so that S-300PMU2 is very hard to jam, especially the data lnk) and if not jam then you just need to put an obstacle between the radar and the aircraft/missile! Also radar must always be on when guiding the missile, and its an easy target for anti-radiation missiles! So tell me do you think that TVM is good enough?

48N6E2 tested against Scuds worked really well, far better than Patriot. The frequency hopping and low sidelobes make it impossible to jam without a high powered blanket effort. The emitters of the EA6B or Growler are too low to get within range to jam it effectively so I'm not worried about it.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Aleksandar_Nevski wrote:So 1 83M6E2 command post, 1 30N6E2 illumination and guidance radar, 1 96L6E all-altitude phased-array target designation radar and 8 TEL's or 12 TEL's(4 missiles each, 200km range, 27 km altitude) would cost 150 million, right? Did I get it right?

Maybe up to 8 TELs, 12 would be more money. Differing missile combos is different cost but it gives you a basic range.

Also want to ask for your opinion, do you think that 48N6E2 TVM homing is effective enough?
I ask this because I know that US missiles that have TVm homing are pretty bad (Patriot)! And I also know that its easy to jam TVM homing (but I know that you made some modifications in that area, so that S-300PMU2 is very hard to jam, especially the data lnk) and if not jam then you just need to put an obstacle between the radar and the aircraft/missile! Also radar must always be on when guiding the missile, and its an easy target for anti-radiation missiles! So tell me do you think that TVM is good enough?

48N6E2 tested against Scuds worked really well, far better than Patriot. The frequency hopping and low sidelobes make it impossible to jam without a high powered blanket effort. The emitters of the EA6B or Growler are too low to get within range to jam it effectively so I'm not worried about it.

Cool...I supposed so, i'm only worried about planes that are attacked, they may jam it if they have good equip on board, or they can run behind a mountain wich would disable the radar (cant track it) and then missiles would fail! But thats in a perfect situation!
Well, if I were in power here, I would only buy those long range 200km missiles (48N6E2), we already have good short range defense, and we are ubgrading our Kub systems to have radars that are the same as Buk's and same missiles (active radar homing), same electronics...everything will be same as Buk, exept the Kub has3 missiles and Buk has 4...and radar is separated from Kub and Buk has autonomous radar abord along with the missiles!

So 8 TEL's...cool thnx!

In purchasing the modern anti-aircraft missile systems Tor-M2E "interested in more than 10 countries
19.08.2009

Moscow. 17 August. Interfax-AVN - As part of the open on Tuesday in Zhukovsky near Moscow air show MAKS-2009 will be held to demonstrate the combat capabilities of modern Russian anti-aircraft missile systems Tor-M2E "for leadership and the representatives of 12 countries in the Air Defense Command.

"This is - the potential customers of this type of weapon. Demonstration of military capabilities" Tor-M2E "will be held in one of the days of the saloon at the Defense Ministry of Russia", - told the Interfax-AVN "Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (Russia FSVTS ) Konstantin Biryulin.

He noted that the MAKS-2009, which will last to 23 August, will hold a series of presentations of their products to foreign customers, as well as organizing a large-scale show of military and civil aviation technology during the summer program.

Total to participate in the MAKS-2009 said 116 Russian aircraft. Of these 79 aircraft will be demonstrated for various purposes, including the 27 will take part in the flight program of the cabin, 28 pieces of helicopters, five of them - with the demonstration in action. It will also show a wide range of small samples of air, said K. Biryulin.

"For the first time in the Russian Federation will take place showing the newest Russian regional plane Superjet 100", - he said.

ZRS "Tor-M2E is designed and manufactured Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant" Dome. " New ZRS has significantly higher performance in comparison with the previous update.

Права на данный материал принадлежат Интерфакс-АВН.

____________________________________________________________

I need to get my hands on video of this test.  

Nice but..well sorry..incomplete promotional video for S-300PMU-1 System.. very informative

if the video is not displayed.. here's the direct link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GNRPx9Ml1E

the whole interview its interesting

Success depends on whether we choose the right marketing policy

Recently our industry has managed to increase the range of one of the most powerful systems – Antey-2500. Its maximum firing range was increased from 250 to 350 km. It is the world record. We will offer this system to one of the largest countries in this region.

There are medium- and short-range systems. For example, a new version of Tor system has been presented recently – Tor-M2.

At that there are three modifications: with crawling traction, wheels and with modular design. The firing range was increased by 3 km (the current operating radius is 15 km). The squadron formed by four four-channel Tor-M2Es may hit simultaneously 16 targets approaching from any directions at the range of up to 15 km and altitude of up to 10 km under any weather conditions and the time of day. The high automation level and unique algorithms for combat performance allow decreasing the workload on combat crew. Tor-M2E is the best system for rebuff of massed air threat. Pantsir S1 system is also in great demand. These are short-range systems.

In the medium-range category we are offering Buk systems. At present we have Buk-M2E with crawling traction and wheels. One division of Buk-M2E systems is able to hit simultaneously 24 targets flying from different directions at the range of 3 – 45 km and the altitudes from 15 meters to 25 km, under conditions of heavy enemy electronic countermeasures and firing countereffort. The critical distinction from the previous version (Buk-M1) is tracking of targets using phased antenna array, which increases the firing capabilities of the system four times. The system is effective even for hitting above-water targets and ground radiocontrast ones.

Interview is about exports to Latin America. Interesting is,they mention 15 km range missiles for Tor-M2E. As I know they offer Tor-M2E with standard 12 km missiles. I also doubt they will offer for export S-300V with 350 km range missiles. Could be possoble only if domestic missiles have even better capabilities and range.

medo wrote: I also doubt they will offer for export S-300V with 350 km range missiles. Could be possoble only if domestic missiles have even better capabilities and range.

Domestic S-300V4 has a range of 400 km as officially declared , check few pages of this thread to find the link.

New Antey-2500 seems to be the export variant of S-300V4 and the customer seems to me is Venezuela.

Austin wrote:

medo wrote: I also doubt they will offer for export S-300V with 350 km range missiles. Could be possoble only if domestic missiles have even better capabilities and range.

Domestic S-300V4 has a range of 400 km as officially declared , check few pages of this thread to find the link.

New Antey-2500 seems to be the export variant of S-300V4 and the customer seems to me is Venezuela.

350 km range missile is a missile in 400 km range class and not 200 km range class for Antey-2500 and is meant for S-300V4. I doubt this missile will go to export, because 400 km range missile for S-400 will also not be available for export, domestic user only and this missile is in the same class and with similar capabilities. I more think Venezuela will get 200 km range missile (S-300PMU-2 class).

About exporting S-400, there is also a question what missiles and what radars. I really doubt Russia will export 400 km missiles as well as 600 km search radar 91N6, but more probably 250 km range missiles in combination with 96L6E search radar.

Once China receives the S 400 from Russia in 2017 it will undoubtedly be a game changer because none of the Asian countries have any aircraft that can penetrate an airspace protected by the S 400 .

That said, it's also true that China will only get an export version of the S 400. The long range 40 N6 missile will not be a part of the package therefore China will not be capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges of up to 400 kilometers.

medo wrote:About exporting S-400, there is also a question what missiles and what radars. I really doubt Russia will export 400 km missiles as well as 600 km search radar 91N6, but more probably 250 km range missiles in combination with 96L6E search radar.

I've got to wonder, does it make sense to export to China. They always end up trying to copy stuff. They're Russia's biggest long term threat. And also, they are potential adversaries of Russia's closest partners - India and the ASEAN bloc ( which has Russian bases too).

As an aside, I wonder how effective the S-500 would be against a nuclear attack, bearing in mind its most likely the best ABM in existence.

The long range 40 N6 missile will not be a part of the package therefore China will not be capable of destroying airborne targets at ranges of up to 400 kilometers.

Sujoy ,believe me, leave out of window ,for those type of high-end and sensitive SAM systems, all those reasonings on engagement range of specific missiles...it is at best a very very very "misty" area


The best reliable clue you can obtain ,on this particular subject, is from parameters of the significantly scaled down systems offered for export: already TODAY (not in 2016-2017 at the best) China could buy ,at a fraction of the cost of a future purposely scaled down S-400s , a very,very high mobile system (late version of Antey-2500) capable to engage any type of aerodynamic targets at more than 350 km of distance and with very impressive ABM capabilities .

Do all that suggest something to you, Sujoy ?....

Best regards.

Mindstorm wrote:
Sujoy ,believe me, leave out of window ,for those type of high-end and sensitive SAM systems, all those reasonings on engagement range of specific missiles...it is at best a very very very "misty" area

Guess that's why it's called Window Pain

Mindstorm wrote:
The best reliable clue you can obtain ,on this particular subject, is from parameters of the significantly scaled down systems offered for export: already TODAY (not in 2016-2017 at the best) China could buy ,at a fraction of the cost of a future purposely scaled down S-400s , a very,very high mobile system (late version of Antey-2500) capable to engage any type of aerodynamic targets at more than 350 km of distance and with very impressive ABM capabilities .

Most of the hardware exported to China by Russia have been top of the shelf . Scaled down units ( as per Russian standards) can be designed in China itself , there is no need to import them. Unlike other countries China does not purchase scaled down units . Infact Russia is hardly selling any scaled down weapon systems here in Asia . The Pantsir-S1 sold to UAE and the Vityaz sold to South Korea are all state of the art.

Mindstorm wrote:
Do all that suggest something to you, Sujoy ?....

Quite a lot Mindstorm . China did develop the HQ 19 which is believed to be a Chinese copy of the S 400. The (Russian) S-400 introduced three new missiles, the 9M96, 9M96/2 and the 40N6, which can be fitted in new canisters.With the exception of the 40N6 there is a Chinese copy of the other two missiles. The fact that the Chinese are still interested in purchasing the S 400 clearly shows that just like there fighter aircraft engine development program there SAM development program hasn't made significant progress either.

Most of the hardware exported to China by Russia have been top of the shelf . Scaled down units ( as per Russian standards) can be designed in China itself , there is no need to import them. Unlike other countries China does not purchase scaled down units .

That Sujoy is completely untrue.

Don't exist even only a SINGLE system devloped in URSS in the past or Russia today and offered for export that was not purposwely (and sometime very heavily ) scaled down in respect to domestic specimens or technology demonstartors ,even when the product fruit of the R&D effort was not inducted in Russian Armed Forces (like in the difficult '90 years).
This practice is true also for well known export success widely recognized or even feared for theirs performances such as the export S-300PMU SAM family (some outdated version of which reached also USA...),or the Su-30MK Flanker aircraft family both of which represent still today the benchmark of China military capabilities.

This steady trend continue obviously also today and it continue to work for the simple motivation that even those downgraded export versions represent still on the open market systems with capabilties without equal at world.

The modernized Antey-2500 that i have previously cited ,for example, has surely significantly lowered performances in respect to domestic S-300V4, but ,nevertheless ,with its 350 km of engagement range , time of deploy/undeply inferior to 5 minutes, very impressive jamming signal rejection threshold and jamming source trinagulation ,outsatnding antiballistic missile capabilities, target/decoy recognition , times of reaction etc... represent still and by far the best SAM system in its category.

The same could be said for some of the latest export AAM offered abroad such as RVV-SD or RVV-BD; those missiles represent surely downgraded versions of domestic specimen but ,for theirs parameters, them are still and by a wide margin the products with the better performances in theirs segment and even without true foreign competitors.


The only exception to this well established "rule" is represented obviously by joint development projects: such as BrahMos (except for the 300 km range limit imposed by Russian adherence to Missile Technology Control Regime ,a "soft" limit that Indian could overcome very easily if it would become necessary in a conflict...) or future BrahMos II , the Sukhoi/HAL PAKFA/FGFA or HAL/Irkut MRTA.

The fact that the Chinese are still interested in purchasing the S 400 clearly shows that just like there fighter aircraft engine development program there SAM development program hasn't made significant progress either.

The problem is that,in reality, China has ,at today, a very hard time with retro-engineering process of significantly downgraded export versions of modern Russian military systems; and just this factor, together with the potentially huge amount of warped technical data and completely wronged capability assessment by part of NATO experts putting theirs hands on those widely exported systems , is one of the basis rational at the basis of this very old Russian practice to design purposely scaled down export versions of its weaponry.