Russian SAM Systems Exports Thread

TR1 wrote:Always found it curious China never purchased the S-300V.
A system truly massively ahead of its time.

Hachimoto wrote:Is there any approximation of the S-400 export price?

Sujoy wrote:

Hachimoto wrote:Is there any approximation of the S-400 export price?

Approximately US$ 200 million for a division .

9M96 - US$850K - US$ 900K
48N6DM - US$ 2.5 mill - US$ 3 mill ( but this missile will not be exported as it's range is above MTCR stipulation )

Viktor wrote:

S-300V4 division 800-950 million $ (But Army S-300V division is equivalent of PVO S-300P regiment)

Army S-300V battery unit is a non existent unit and within Russian Army can be found only as a regimental set/(Russian Army calls it

divisional) consisting of 3 or 4 batteries.

S-400 division/battery is 400 million $.

S-300PMU2 division/battery is about 200-250 million $.

S-300PMU/1 about 150 million $.

Despite the fact that in creation of comparable SAMs many new technologies were used, it is absolutely clear that the S-400 was the winner. There is no doubt that at the moment, this system is the best ground-based air defense system in the world. This complex has bright future and great potential due to a combination of excellent performance characteristics and relatively low cost - about $200 million for a division .

Sujoy wrote:Are you sure these are export prices ?

Sujoy wrote: Export divisions will be highly downgraded & long range missiles will NOT be included. Missiles account for the maximum cost for any SAM system . The longer the range of the missile the more it's cost .

Sujoy wrote:Your prices are correct but these appear as procurement prices in Russia as opposed to export prices . The S 400 price that you have pegged at $400 million is in all likelihood per 8 launchers ,112 missiles, command and support vehicles (and includes the 40N6 missile which will be missing from the export package ).

Even PRAVDA puts the price for 1 division at $200 million

What’s It Cost?

A reader recently asked:

What’s the cost of one division of the S-400 for Russia and for foreign customers?

Let’s call it a battalion (дивизион). We’ll start with exports (for which there is actually data). And we proceed from what was paid for the S-300.

Russia’s planned sale of the S-300PMU1 to Iran reportedly involved the transfer of five “battalion sets” for $800 million. Some sources said as much as $1-1.2 billion.

Let’s guess the “battalion set” has three firing batteries, with two launchers per, for a total of 30 TELs, 120+ missiles, and all associated radars, fire control systems, and vehicles.

If $800 million is accurate, the price for one battalion was $160 million. The price for one S-400 system, four missiles on a TEL, was roughly $27 million.

This isn’t unlike what the Chinese paid for the S-300 in the 1990s and 2000s. According to Sinodefence.com, they bought battalions for between $25 and $60 million at different times under different contracts.

That done, we make the leap from the S-300 price to the S-400 price.

A couple years ago, Vedomosti drew the scarcely precise conclusion that the price of the S-400 will double the S-300′s price (and the S-500 double the S-400′s).

So perhaps a “battalion set” or a battalion of the S-400 will go for $320 million. That would be one full-up launch vehicle for $40-50 million.

The only other shred of information is the widely-reported Financial Times story saying, if the Russians added the S-400 to a $2 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia, the price of the sale would climb to $7 billion. But lots of Russian reports say Moscow won’t be selling the S-400 abroad soon. The military obviously hopes that’s true, so it can get first.

But not every customer is Iranian, not every one will have to pay a premium price, and not every customer is foreign.

Which brings the trickier question of what Russia’s Defense Ministry has to pay. It’s simply impossible to guess.

Certainly a lot less than buyers abroad. The military’s bought some S-400 systems so there is a going price. OAO Concern PVO Almaz-Antey’s costs are a big question as is the level of profit the government is willing to tolerate.

The government owns Almaz-Antey, so one part of government is selling to another. It’s a prime example of angst over GOZ ”price formation” in recent years. There was a similar big-ticket dustup over submarine prices with Sevmash. It’s something of a Mexican standoff. The buyer doesn’t have other supplier alternatives. And the seller may not be allowed to sell elsewhere.

The Defense Ministry, the government don’t want to pay a lot and have the power to refuse and yet still receive goods. The question is how many. That’s ECON 101, friends.

If those buyers set their price below equilibrium, Almaz-Antey will provide a lower than desired quantity more slowly than the buyers want. And Almaz might have other buyers as an option, an advantage Sevmash lacks. So “price formation” for the S-400 is all about agreement on Almaz’s costs and an acceptable level of profit. That agreement is apparently not smoothly worked out yet.

Sujoy wrote:What’s It Cost?

A reader recently asked:

What’s the cost of one division of the S-400 for Russia and for foreign customers?

Let’s call it a battalion (дивизион). We’ll start with exports (for which there is actually data). And we proceed from what was paid for the S-300.

Russia’s planned sale of the S-300PMU1 to Iran reportedly involved the transfer of five “battalion sets” for $800 million. Some sources said as much as $1-1.2 billion.

Let’s guess the “battalion set” has three firing batteries, with two launchers per, for a total of 30 TELs, 120+ missiles, and all associated radars, fire control systems, and vehicles.

Sujoy wrote:If $800 million is accurate, the price for one battalion was $160 million

Sujoy wrote:This isn’t unlike what the Chinese paid for the S-300 in the 1990s and 2000s. According to Sinodefence.com, they bought battalions for between $25 and $60 million at different times under different contracts.

That done, we make the leap from the S-300 price to the S-400 price.

A couple years ago, Vedomosti drew the scarcely precise conclusion that the price of the S-400 will double the S-300′s price (and the S-500 double the S-400′s).

So perhaps a “battalion set” or a battalion of the S-400 will go for $320 million. That would be one full-up launch vehicle for $40-50 million.

Sujoy wrote:A couple years ago, Vedomosti drew the scarcely precise conclusion that the price of the S-400 will double the S-300′s price (and the S-500 double the S-400′s).

So perhaps a “battalion set” or a battalion of the S-400 will go for $320 million. That would be one full-up launch vehicle for $40-50 million.

Sujoy wrote:The only other shred of information is the widely-reported Financial Times story saying, if the Russians added the S-400 to a $2 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia, the price of the sale would climb to $7 billion. But lots of Russian reports say Moscow won’t be selling the S-400 abroad soon. The military obviously hopes that’s true, so it can get first.

But not every customer is Iranian, not every one will have to pay a premium price, and not every customer is foreign.

Which brings the trickier question of what Russia’s Defense Ministry has to pay. It’s simply impossible to guess.

Certainly a lot less than buyers abroad. The military’s bought some S-400 systems so there is a going price. OAO Concern PVO Almaz-Antey’s costs are a big question as is the level of profit the government is willing to tolerate.

The government owns Almaz-Antey, so one part of government is selling to another. It’s a prime example of angst over GOZ ”price formation” in recent years. There was a similar big-ticket dustup over submarine prices with Sevmash. It’s something of a Mexican standoff. The buyer doesn’t have other supplier alternatives. And the seller may not be allowed to sell elsewhere.

The Defense Ministry, the government don’t want to pay a lot and have the power to refuse and yet still receive goods. The question is how many. That’s ECON 101, friends.

If those buyers set their price below equilibrium, Almaz-Antey will provide a lower than desired quantity more slowly than the buyers want. And Almaz might have other buyers as an option, an advantage Sevmash lacks. So “price formation” for the S-400 is all about agreement on Almaz’s costs and an acceptable level of profit. That agreement is apparently not smoothly worked out yet.

Chit Chat - nothing important there.

Viktor wrote:But see Sujoy - having capable air defense cost money (a lot of it) and just buy buying all those systems is not enough

Sujoy wrote:

Viktor wrote:But see Sujoy - having capable air defense cost money (a lot of it) and just buy buying all those systems is not enough

Viktor , all good points that you make .

For China , this is what I know :

The PLAAF signed a contract in 1994 ( and got delivery around 98-99)to purchase two battalions (eight batteries) of the S-300PMU1 . The US$400 million package included 32 self-propelled 5P85SE/DE TEL vehicles and 196 TVM-guidance 48N6E missiles.

An additional two battalions (eight batteries) of the S-300PMU1 system was ordered in 2001 in a contract worth US$400 million. The packaged included 32 TEL vehicles and 198 missiles, also in the 48N6E model.

In 2003, the PRC finalised a contract worth US$980 million with Rosoboronexport to acquire four battalions (16 batteries) of the S-300PMU2 . The package included 64 self-propelled 5P85SE2/DE2 TEL vehicles and 256 improved 48N6E2 missiles.

Sujoy wrote:In 1999 The commander of Russia’s air defense troops, Alexander Sorokin, said that Kazakhstan would be purchasing ten divisions of S-300PS systems by installments before 2011.The cost of two divisions of S-300 missile systems were evaluated at $250-300 million. This is the price that Vietnam paid Russia when it purchased two divisions of S-300 complexes.

Russia, Kazakhstan to merge missile defences



Russia and Kazakhstan will merge their missile defence systems, with the agreement to this effect due to be signed in 2013, the Commander of the Kazakh aerial defence, Colonel Nourzhan Moukanov, has told a news conference held in the town of Cholpon-Ata, on the shores of Lake Issyk-Kul.

According to him, the terms of the proposed agreement are currently in the process of being finalised. The Commander also expects Russia to settle the issue of the delivery of Russian-made S-300 surface-to-air missiles to Kazakhstan in 2013.

The Secretariat of the Council of CIS Defence Ministers told the Interfax news agency earlier that Russia would supply up to ten S-300 air defence systems to Kazakhstan free of charge.

LINK

medo wrote:China got different versions of S-300, so they don't have the same price.

medo wrote:Maybe we should look on Azerbaidjan for price.

"Rosoboronexport" is ready to cooperate with Turkey in the joint production of anti-aircraft missile systems

ISTANBUL, May 8. (ARMS-TASS). Russia is ready to instruct the Turkish defense industry production of a number of components anti-aircraft missile system (ADMS) "Antey-2500" (S-300VM). This was announced today in an interview with Trend. ITAR-TASS General Director of "Rosoboronexport" Anatoly Isaykin taking part in the international exhibition of defense industry "AYDEF 2013" in Istanbul.

He recalled that "Rosoboronexport" is involved in the Ministry of National Defense announced the tender for the supply of long-range air defense missile systems. "We offer a modern and efficient system. If the Russian proposal is selected, then the signing of the contract, we will take a commitment to the participation of industry and of" Rosoboronexport "in the joint development and production of a new generation air defense missile systems to the needs of the Turkish Armed Forces," - said Isaykin. Elements of the system "Antey-2500" in this case, will be integrated into the new complex air defense missile systems. Isaykin noted that during the negotiations with the Turkish side it was reported that Russia is ready to cooperate.

Meanwhile, at the moment the Secretariat of the defense industry in Turkey, which is in charge of matters of procurement of weapons, has not made a decision on the tender. "Our hopes of winning the bid based on the real superiority of Russian air defense and missile defense systems over foreign producers," - said Isaykin. The main competitor of the Russian proposal is an American set of "Patriot", however, as local observers, the conditions offered by the United States, is not so profitable as Russian.

On the issue of the transfer of technology for the production of Turkey "Anthea-2500", Isaykin said that such a condition is written in the Turkish legislation. "The Contractor shall provide the necessary and sufficient domestic industrial participation. It should be remembered that as a result of joint activity should not hurt the quality of the delivered property," - he said.


LINK

mack8 wrote:Thanks, very interesting info . Would such annual reports be available for Mil and Almaz-Antey too by any chance?  

mack8 wrote:Thanks Viktor, i did found what i was looking for, unfortunately the export section table is secretno, i was hoping we could have found interesting info about f.e. S-300VM delivery to Venezuela, and perhaps to other countries. I don't think anyone heard about any sort of contract or negotiations with Iraq for S-300PMU2 or VM ?

mack8 wrote:Thanks, been following Venezuela's S-300VM and Buk-M2 aquisition since spring, hopefully they'll show the first firing drills with them not too far from now. 

Anyway, the reason i asked about Iraq and S-300VM is because i've seen posted by iraqi forumists that there is apparently a $210 mil per system SAM included in the russian deal, hence logically something that expensive could be the S-300VM (or PMU? apart from the syrian ones, that system is out of production as of now right?). Perhaps there will be something in next year's SIPRI , or perhaps such a deal doesn't exist, time will tell.