Cuban Revolution

Do people on this forum think the Cuban Revolution benefited the people of Cuba? I know before Castro; Cuba was a playground for the US and exploited and controlled the country. Do people think Communism helped the Cubans? I know Communism is a bad system. But I don't want the USA to invade the country and put in another puppet. I would prefer the Cuban people to change the government themselves.

They had a crappy government before, and after the revolution.

Kind of like Russia and the USSR did.

Communist, capitalist, whatever. Despotic government suck period.

What exactly do Cubans own to communism!? That the entire place (including the capital) is literally falling apart? That people have to drive 60 years old cars, while in Poland (hardly an oasis of prosperity) you can buy a nice 15 years old car for three minimum wages? If Cuba us prosperous, why do so many people migrate out of the country and pretty much no one arrives? You should actually think twice because what you have written so far regarding communism does not make sense.  

Iran is a real democracy, where women get the vote... something that doesn't happen in Kuwaite or Saudi Arabia where women can't vote or drive a motor car. It is isolated not for being communist, but for not allowing western oil companies to go in an plunder its wealth.

Iranian "democracy" is an illusion, same for human rights. 10 years ago a 14 years old Iranian boy was sentenced to 85 lashes for eating in public during the Ramadan and died due to this. A few years ago two young (just one out of many similar cases) women were jailed and executed for converting to Christianity. Thousands of Baha'is had been killed, jailed, denied employement, education and healthcare because they refused to revert back to Twelver Shiism. Does anything like this happen in, say, EU? Today Iran has the highest number of executions per capita and the highest number of political prisoners per capita. If I measured your hypocrisy it would stretch from the earth to another galaxy. Ehh.

As Sa'iqa wrote:What exactly do Cubans own to communism!? That the entire place (including the capital) is literally falling apart? That people have to drive 60 years old cars, while in Poland (hardly an oasis of prosperity) you can buy a nice 15 years old car for three minimum wages? If Cuba us prosperous, why do so many people migrate out of the country and pretty much no one arrives? You should actually think twice because what you have written so far regarding communism does not make sense.  

Iran is a real democracy, where women get the vote... something that doesn't happen in Kuwaite or Saudi Arabia where women can't vote or drive a motor car. It is isolated not for being communist, but for not allowing western oil companies to go in an plunder its wealth.

Iranian "democracy" is an illusion, same for human rights. 10 years ago a 14 years old Iranian boy was sentenced to 85 lashes for eating in public during the Ramadan and died due to this. A few years ago two young (just one out of many similar cases) women were jailed and executed for converting to Christianity. Thousands of Baha'is had been killed, jailed, denied employement, education and healthcare because they refused to revert back to Twelver Shiism. Does anything like this happen in, say, EU? Today Iran has the highest number of executions per capita and the highest number of political prisoners per capita... And you have guts to call that shithole democracy?!?! If I measured your hypocrisy it would stretch from the earth to another galaxy. Ehh.

You're such a naive young child...

Guantánamo Bay detainees claim Poland allowed CIA torture

The Guardian wrote:Lawyers for two men subject to extraordinary rendition by the CIA told the European court of human rights (ECHR) on Tuesday that Poland, which permitted a secret "black" site to operate on its territory, should be held responsible for their torture.

Link

But a very proud EU member, aren't you?
A laughable argumentation you got there kid...keep living in Unicorn world.

In 1988 alone Khomeini ordered the execution of tens of thousands of political dissidents. When his then-successor Ayatollah Montazeri, objected, he was stripped off all titles and put under house arrest, where he spent the rest of his life. You should be ashamed of calling me naive... Do you have a limit for hypocrisy or maybe it's infinite?

As Sa'iqa wrote:In 1988 alone Khomeini ordered the execution of tens of thousands of political dissidents. When his then-successor Ayatollah Montazeri, objected, he was stripped off all titles and put under house arrest, where he spent the rest of his life. You should be ashamed of calling me naive... Do you have a limit for hypocrisy or maybe it's infinite?

Are we arguing about numbers, or were you saying that your 'oh so precious EU' doesn't do torture?!
Do you have any principles kid, or are you now saying numbers are important?
Was Poland not a part of the illegal occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan with MILLIONS of civilians killed?!!!
Was not Kwaśniewski hailed by George W Bush as the 'leader of New Europe' for his willingness to participate in the war crime that was Iraq?!
You need to learn about true beliefs, principles and hypocrisy kid, because the way you present your arguments only makes you look immoral, unethical, and to be honest: an intellectual cretin...

You have created as strawman at which you are now shooting. Did I say that the EU does not do torture!? Nope, I asked about other things. Do EU countries jail and kill people for leaving the state religion? Create legally institutionalized discrimination against religious minorities, squashing them to the point that they fear for their lives? Do EU countries stone adulterers to death or sentence women to lashes for exposing a lock of hair in public? Do you see a difference between torturing a terrorist suspect and torturing a political activist or a member of a heterodox religious sect who has committed no crime except no longer adhering to a particular worldview? No? If you dont, you should better seek medical help for your own sake as I'm not able to help you.

And don't talk about Iraq war. It's a red herring and a logical fallacy called "tu quoque". Let us not discuss whether actually millions were killed or not not, instead I'll take it for granted. I'll even assume, for the sake of discussion (ignoring the sectarian violence), that all victims were innocent people and all were killed by US soldiers. Does it make Khomeini's crimes better? No. Killing innocent people is evil because it's evil. The fact that other people kill more innocent people does not make it good.

As Sa'iqa wrote:You have created as strawman at which you are now shooting. Did I say that the EU does not do torture!? Nope, I asked about other things. Do EU countries jail and kill people for leaving the state religion? Create legally institutionalized discrimination against religious minorities, squashing them to the point that they fear for their lives? Do EU countries stone adulterers to death or sentence women to lashes for exposing a lock of hair in public? Do you see a difference between torturing a terrorist suspect and torturing a political activist or a member of a heterodox religious sect who has committed no crime except no longer adhering to a particular worldview? No? If you dont, you should better seek medical help for your own sake as I'm not able to help you.

And don't talk about Iraq war. It's a red herring and a logical fallacy called "tu quoque". Let us not discuss whether actually millions were killed or not not, instead I'll take it for granted. I'll even assume, for the sake of discussion (ignoring the sectarian violence), that all victims were innocent people and all were killed by US soldiers. Does it make Khomeini's crimes better? No. Killing innocent people is evil because it's evil. The fact that other people kill more innocent people does not make it good.

So basically, you're saying that the EU states DO in fact torture people, but it's all fine and peachy because it's not based on religion?!?
Really??! And: Straw-man? Learn English kid, the definition doesn't fit here.
About 'state religion and minorities': there are many gipsies in the EU, can you please tell me how many hold government jobs in your country?
Only asking because when I was in England there were many Polish gipsies that were given an asylum based on the fact that they've been tortured in Poland...you know: have their houses burnt, etc But the EU turns a blind eye on that, does it not?! How's that for:

As Sa'iqa wrote:Create legally institutionalized discrimination against religious minorities, squashing them to the point that they fear for their lives?

???
Now, there go your 'principles' again kid.
Straw-man, eh? You're funny...in an idiotic way, that is...like a clown.  
Perhaps you should consider your own advice and:

If you dont, you should better seek medical help for your own sake as I'm not able to help you.

Should I not talk about Iraq?
Why?
Do you think it was all nice and legal?
Do you think your (then) president did a great job at saving Poland from the Iraqi menace when he supported the US' invasion there?
Are you proud at what your soldiers did there? And what your country has achieved by supporting that war?
You're a moral cripple kid. I feel sorry for you!

It's great that you fear sorry for me... But you should feel more sorry for yourself.

My definition of strawman is correct What Iran does isn't bad because EU does not do it. Even if EU did things that are 1000x worse, it would still be evil. However, there is a difference between torturing a terrorist and torturing an innocent person - just like there is a difference between shooting someone who broke into your house to kill your family, and shooting a random person on the street for no reason. Terrorists are beasts without conscience. They are like robots programmed to do one thing - to kill as many innocent people in as gruesome manner as possible. We don't torture them because we like to watch people suffer, we don't even want them to repent. We do this so that they and their friends don't kill more people. This is a moral necessity.

Iran is different. These two poor girls I was talking about weren't executed as terrorists. They hadn't killed anyone and hadn't planned to. Their only crime was that they had converted from Shia Islam to Christianity. Same for other minorities. Baha'is who were killed, threw into prisons and whose temples had been destroyed weren't guilty either. Most of them and their families had been Baha'i since decades or longer. Yet according to Iranian law, they were guilty of apostasy and, therefore, deserving death. This isn't something that is acceptable in any civilized country.

However, there is a difference between torturing a terrorist and torturing an innocent person

What terrorists? What are the evidence to proof they are terrorists? Such as gitmo, with hundreds jailed for years without a TRAIL, charge and unknown time?

Ther are no terrorists in west, those who get tortured are innocent people, the real terrorists are financed,equipped and send into souvereign countries to kill innocent people and destabilize the entire country, thats are the real terrorists, employees of the anglo-zionistic doctrine for global domination.

They should be grateful that they weren't tried - as a consequence many were set free later. Some even rejoined jihadist ranks.

Ther are no terrorists in west, those who get tortured are innocent people, the real terrorists are financed,equipped and send into souvereign countries to kill innocent people and destabilize the entire country, thats are the real terrorists, employees of the anglo-zionistic doctrine for global domination.

You know what? My country is under Angl0-Zionist dominance and guess what? It's economy is now 2x larger than it was in 1989 when it was still free of imperialists, jews etc - if Anglo-Zionists are so evil, then countries that heroically rejected the Zionist burden (Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Belarus) should be far more prosperous that those that succumbed to Anglo-Zionist domination (Puerto Rico, South Korea, Botswana, Poland).

But it seems tha it's the opposite.        Who do so many people want to live in Zionst-ran countries and hardly anyone wants to be free of their evil machinations?

As Sa'iqa wrote:It's great that you fear sorry for me... But you should feel more sorry for yourself.

I'll just live this quote here for everyone to marvel at your eloquence.

As Sa'iqa wrote:My definition of strawman is correct What Iran does isn't bad because EU does not do it. Even if EU did things that are 1000x worse, it would still be evil.

So you're supporting...what than?
Evil?
You seem very supportive of EU/NATO/US actions.

As Sa'iqa wrote:However, there is a difference between torturing a terrorist and torturing an innocent person - just like there is a difference between shooting someone who broke into your house to kill your family, and shooting a random person on the street for no reason. Terrorists are beasts without conscience. They are like robots programmed to do one thing - to kill as many innocent people in as gruesome manner as possible. We don't torture them because we like to watch people suffer, we don't even want them to repent. We do this so that they and their friends don't kill more people. This is a moral necessity.

You understand that the people you've tortured on the behalf of the Americans were ALLEGED TERRORIST, and that more than 90% of them proved not to have ANY TERRORIST LINKS, right? You were talking about the RULE OF LAW, right? Under which, these people were INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY...but they were never given that right, were they?!!

As Sa'iqa wrote:Iran is different. These two poor girls I was talking about weren't executed as terrorists. They hadn't killed anyone and hadn't planned to. Their only crime was that they had converted from Shia Islam to Christianity. Same for other minorities. Baha'is who were killed, threw into prisons and whose temples had been destroyed weren't guilty either. Most of them and their families had been Baha'i since decades or longer. Yet according to Iranian law, they were guilty of apostasy and, therefore, deserving death. This isn't something that is acceptable in any civilized country.

How's that different from the Gipsy families (including women and children) that were burnt alive in Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia?
Because you say so?
As I said previously: YOU ARE A MORAL CRIPPLE! Something you'll have to change, or live with.
And again - I feel sorry for you!

What Gypsies were burnt alive, when and by whom? Did any court sentence them to this? In Iran it's state courts that sentence people to death for rejecting the state religion, it's state courts that jail political dissidents and it's the Iranian STATE that has discrimination against minorities as a part of their law

As Sa'iqa wrote:What Gypsies were burnt alive, when and by whom? Did any court sentence them to this? In Iran it's state courts that sentence people to death for rejecting the state religion, it's state courts that jail political dissidents and it's the Iranian STATE that has discrimination against minorities as a part of their law

You wanna do a search about Polish repressiveness against its Gipsy population? I know you know all about it, but just for the sake of argument...
As I told you previously, PEOPLE I HAVE MET were given an asylum in Britain for being tortured in Poland. They told me the most despicable stories.
And - you know how asylum works right? It works ONLY if the state recipient of the asylum seeker believes that the state where the seeker is from is repressive towards that particular minority...And there were plenty of Polish Gipsies in Britain when I was there...
All this is well documented and was in the news back then. Perhaps your overlords 'helped' for these things not to find their way in the news anymore, I don't know.
What I DO know is - that I don't agree with any sort of discrimination. Whatever it's based on. But you seem drunk on your 'European' brandy at the moment, so you don't really care. Good for you! Not really though.

Hypocrisy ALWAYS finds its way to bite back kid. Always!
But you, same as the people you admire, are ignorant of that fact.
For this too, I feel sorry for you! Really I do.

As for how well your economy is...
Well, I know people will sell their soul for peanuts.
I guess that's what you did.
Hope that money brings you joy in life.
Though money isn't everything.
Here's proof!

As Sa'iqa wrote:They should be grateful that they weren't tried - as a consequence many were set free later. Some even rejoined jihadist ranks.

Ther are no terrorists in west, those who get tortured are innocent people, the real terrorists are financed,equipped and send into souvereign countries to kill innocent people and destabilize the entire country, thats are the real terrorists, employees of the anglo-zionistic doctrine for global domination.

You know what? My country is under Angl0-Zionist dominance and guess what? It's economy is now 2x larger than it was in 1989 when it was still free of imperialists, jews etc - if Anglo-Zionists are so evil, then countries that heroically rejected the Zionist burden (Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Belarus) should be far more prosperous that those that succumbed to Anglo-Zionist domination (Puerto Rico, South Korea, Botswana, Poland).

But it seems tha it's the opposite.        Who do so many people want to live in Zionst-ran countries and hardly anyone wants to be free of their evil machinations?

Are poles all that dumb?

Countries are under illegal sanction by US and their little vassals who have no own foreign policy but are controlled by pentagon and you really try to troll about economy of Cuba and North corea?

Further anglo-zionistic countries are the one who have no souvereignity and have no own policy, drag themselfs into wars that have nothing to do with their own national security and for the main part this wars are all illegal!

South Korea has always tensions with North Korea, not because North Korea is such aggressive country but because USA always performs provocative military maneuvers near North Korea, South koreans are sickned of US propaganda machinerey that tries to drag koreans against each other once more.

Poland is one of those countries no one has ever mentioned as "doing well with its own policy". Beeing a vassal and own policy are mutual exclusive attributes.

Wow, not many people are commenting on the Cuban Revolution. I think the power of the USSR at the time partially liberated Cuba from the USA as they had a ruthless hold on the the country. Castro initially did some good things like improve literacy and health of the black population. However, the bad aspects of the Communist system would prevail such as the bad economic policies and political oppression. Would like Cuba to improve free market reforms and moderate political reforms by being less intolerate of free speech for a start.

The free market reforms do not have to be radical libertarian economics that are exploitative but a free market with reasonable regulations to improve the standard of living of the people.

andalusia wrote:Wow, not many people are commenting on the Cuban Revolution. I think the power of the USSR at the time partially liberated Cuba from the USA as they had a ruthless hold on the the country. Castro initially did some good things like improve literacy and health of the black population. However, the bad aspects of the Communist system would prevail such as the bad economic policies and political oppression. Would like Cuba to improve free market reforms and moderate political reforms by being less intolerate of free speech for a start.

The free market reforms do not have to be radical libertarian economics that are exploitative but a free market with reasonable regulations to improve the standard of living of the people.

you can thank the brains behind sanctions for that. ironically castro only lasted this long because the economy is crap- remove sanctions and embargos and suddenly everyone in cuba would lose their minds over freedom fries.

andalusia wrote:Wow, not many people are commenting on the Cuban Revolution. I think the power of the USSR at the time partially liberated Cuba from the USA as they had a ruthless hold on the the country. Castro initially did some good things like improve literacy and health of the black population. However, the bad aspects of the Communist system would prevail such as the bad economic policies and political oppression.  Would like Cuba to improve free market reforms and moderate political reforms by being less intolerate of free speech for a start.  

The free market reforms do not have to be radical libertarian economics that are exploitative but a free market with reasonable regulations to improve the standard of living of the people.

What political opression?

They can do what They want... the police just look at them and sometimes have to protect them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT--WTgHkGg

The opposition in Cuba is a joke pay by USA like Yoani Sanches.
to understand a little better what Cuba really is if you undestand portuguese or spanish "fatos não palavras" excellent documentary.

Cuba is not perfect, sadly is not truly communist, not even socialist country, but is by far the best society in the world.

Cuba is the only truly democracy in world... ok can put pictures of old ladies or downvoate at will this is the true.

The Cuban people is a very educated people and in support for their government and mostly their system Commnunism.

They have the best election system in world and the only truly democratic.

Viva la revolucion Cubana

dino00 wrote:The opposition in Cuba is a joke pay by USA like Yoani Sanches.
to understand a little better what Cuba really is if you undestand portuguese or spanish "fatos não palavras" excellent documentary.

Cuba is not perfect, sadly is not truly communist, not even socialist country, but is by far the best society in the world.

Cuba is the only truly democracy in world... ok can put pictures of old ladies or downvoate at will this is the true.

The Cuban people is a very educated people and in support for their government and mostly their system Commnunism.

They have the best election system in world and the only truly democratic.

Viva la revolucion Cubana

+1 for you man!
Just because I view Cuba with the same rose-tinted glasses as you do.
I really LIKE Cuba! It's like they've managed for time to stand still there, and not have 'Globalization' ruin their lives as it has ruined our lives.
I hope you're from Lisbon. Had a real great times there when I was young(er)...Oh I remember that jazz club at Bairo Alto..really cool...

  

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!               
1. Is the US the only place Cuba can export to!?!? No, there is Russia, there are various Asian, European and Latin American countries. The problem is that they simply have little to export. The whole notion that communism was great but evil imperialist embargoes ddestroyed it is bullshit squared. USSR alone had more than 200 mln people, Poland had more than 20 mln etc. the size of Warsaw Pact countries' market was comparable to the Western market.

2. If Cuban education was great, people from all around the world would compete to study in Cuba and Cuban scientists, doctors, engineers etc. would be making astonishing careers worldwide (as are students of e.g. MIT). If you want to know what's the reality - ask some scientists how many Cuban scientific journals they know . You'll find a lot of stuff from Israel, Switzerland or even Singapore but hardly anything from Cuba.

macedonian wrote:

dino00 wrote:The opposition in Cuba is a joke pay by USA like Yoani Sanches.
to understand a little better what Cuba really is if you undestand portuguese or spanish "fatos não palavras" excellent documentary.

Cuba is not perfect, sadly is not truly communist, not even socialist country, but is by far the best society in the world.

Cuba is the only truly democracy in world... ok can put pictures of old ladies or downvoate at will this is the true.

The Cuban people is a very educated people and in support for their government and mostly their system Commnunism.

They have the best election system in world and the only truly democratic.

Viva la revolucion Cubana

+1 for you man!
Just because I view Cuba with the same rose-tinted glasses as you do.
I really LIKE Cuba! It's like they've managed for time to stand still there, and not have 'Globalization' ruin their lives as it has ruined our lives.
I hope you're from Lisbon. Had a real great times there when I was young(er)...Oh I remember that jazz club at Bairo Alto..really cool...

  

I did not say Cuba is perfect just the best.
I am "far" from Lisbon more close to Porto, only be in Lisbon one time to watch SL Benfica.
For what i Know Bairro alto is crazy