Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+43
Sujoy
Corrosion
NickM
calripson
Viktor
Flyingdutchman
Airbornewolf
zino
j.mac
Morpheus Eberhardt
onwiththewar
Stealthflanker
Intrigado
AlfaT8
syxthtysyxthsyx
Austin
Zivo
As Sa'iqa
xeno
mack8
zg18
fragmachine
GarryB
T055
George1000cy
Cyberspec
TheGeorgian
Hannibal Barca
Starlight
Asf
Werewolf
TheArmenian
arpakola
flamming_python
Vann7
TR1
medo
magnumcromagnon
Regular
Strizh
Firebird
etaepsilonk
sepheronx
47 posters

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Regular
    Regular


    Posts : 3894
    Points : 3868
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Ukrolovestan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:54 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Are the "separatist" really Russians ? That's what need to be established first .

    Russians as Russian nationals or ethnic russians? There are plenty of Russian national volunteers and mercenaries who join and actually get paid. Locals seem to be rather running to Russia or catching Ukrainian grads in their apartments. 
    I can only tell You hearsays, but from reliable source, from a Slovensk separatist who is now in Donetsk. I've spoken with him on VK and skype and he said that ratio of locals and people from Russia and South Osetia, Abkhazia have changed. There are new batch of people joining Vostok and people are still pouring across the border. Especially people from Rostov. He pretty much said that only serious group made of locals are Oplot.
    And Russian language is used by Ukrainians too. It has nothing to do with Your allegiance. I speak better Ukrainian than Klitchko..
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 8839
    Points : 9099
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 35
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:00 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:Are the "separatist" really Russians ? That's what need to be established first .

    Does the ability to speak Russian makes you Russian ?

    IIRC , if you can speak Russian you will understand almost 85% of Ukrainian and the opposite is also true .

    Therefore , why is it not possible that the "separatist" are actually ethnic Ukrainian with sufficient knowledge of Russian ?


    There is a mix. A truly substantial minority in this two regions are ethnic Russians in every sense of the word.
    Others are simply pro Russian Ukrainians which essentially means that they are Slavs that identify themselves as being traditionally closer to Kiev than Moscow and also speak the Ukrainian language which in this area is still not the language of choice in everyday conversations but still identify themselves as having the Orthodox culture/religion.
    All in all the differentiation between Slavs who identify themselves as Ukrainians and those who identify themselves as Russians have to do with the passport and the affiliation towards the Patriarch or the Pope, this is the reality that you are not gonna find on the blogs.
    Is similar with you and Pakistan/Bangladesh.


    Saying ethnic Russian is kinda a joke these days since there really is no real Russian anymore, maybe some people who are descendants of the ancient Rus people, both in Russia and Ukraine (as Kiev was once the capital of the Rus). But as time went on, Russian is now a term coined for people of Russia. Russia as a whole consists of many groups who are descendants of others like Mongols, Chinese, Persian, Turk, etc. And thus they too are Russian by nature as they are people of Russia. I myself my be a descendant of Ukrainian and Russian (and a little polish too. ahmygad!). but technically, if you look at various members of my family, you can clearly see the Mongol, the Turk/Persian in us. Uncle bearing jet black curly hair, slanted eyes but are blue. I have semi slanted eyes, that are grey, but semi pale white skin and dirty blond hair. My father bearing the looks of what a Turk/Persian would, with having olive skin or being semi darker skin color and brown hair and green eyes.

    The only main common trait you can find is from descendants of the Greeks, the round head. Everyone in my family has round heads and usually that is from the Greek people who colonized and brought civilization to the Rus people. So that is why many whom question or don't understand, see that Greeks tend to be somewhat liked or liking the Russian people and vice versa. Because there is indeed historical links between the two, and the main religion being Eastern Orthodox is also one of them.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 8839
    Points : 9099
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 35
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:07 pm

    Krasnodar governor: sanctions imposed for support for brotherly people
    KRASNODAR, July 26 (Itar-Tass) - The Krasnodar Territory’s Governor Alexander Tkachyov said EU sanctions imposed against him were score settling for the support for brotherly Ukrainian people.
    "Since the first day, I and entire Kuban (the Krasnodar territory) have supported our president that brotherly people must not be left in trouble. Therefore, I do not regret over sanctions. Even if I had known earlier they (sanctions) would be, I would have done what I have done," he wrote on Twitter on Saturday.
    "Our Cossacks did everything to save lives of Crimeans. Kuban also helps today we receive thousands of refugees from Ukraine who flee the hell.
    "Against the background, I believe sanctions seem to be funny just settling of scores," Tkachyov said.

    Give this man a medal, because he is correct, and a leader!
    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca


    Posts : 1457
    Points : 1467
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:10 pm

    Well if you speak Russian as a mother language, if you come from an Orthodox family and if you identify yourself as Russian you are as Russian as you can get assuming of course that you are not Chinese looking or black or something profoundly not Russian and same goes for anybody else. Let us not get to the genes thing is not that important. The point is to go in Russia pretend that you are a direct descendant of Vladimir the first that was born and raised in Russia and go away with it without anyone notice.
    Regular
    Regular


    Posts : 3894
    Points : 3868
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Ukrolovestan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    Everyone in my family has round heads and usually that is from the Greek people who colonized and brought civilization to the Rus people.  
    Well interesting theory. There is theory about Rus people being actual descendants of Nordic people, vikings and etc. And Russia had civilisation before they took religion from Greece. Slavic paganism is awesome Wink
    avatar
    fragmachine


    Posts : 121
    Points : 122
    Join date : 2014-05-28
    Location : Poland

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  fragmachine Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:57 pm

    Well I believe that Slavs as a whole had civilisation muuuch older that what is written in HisTor(yj)a. It is described in first croniques that Slavs had their own 'settlement democracy', findings show in Poland for example in Pomerania so I would guess that it was universal for all Slavs, like with everything  Very Happy 

    BTW seems that 10 kilometer long help is coming from Crimea. If Kiev junta won't be helped we can expect they will be in a very very bad mood.

    http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/37869.html
    arpakola
    arpakola


    Posts : 1510
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 57
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:07 pm

    72 brigade in southern pocket
    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca


    Posts : 1457
    Points : 1467
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Hannibal Barca Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:12 pm

    Just received information that the situation is extremely good for us. My source is checked and usually very trustworthy. It seems that we seriously crimp them!!
    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2417
    Points : 2575
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Sujoy Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:18 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Sujoy, it's much easier for my fellow Americans to be gravely misinformed (unfortunately that makes up 90% of the U.S. population), and it's even easier for them to go on Joe McCarthy-like fear-mongering tirades. The shear amount of Anti-Russian FEAR-PORN peddled by the Neo-Cons is...astronomical lol!

    Anti Russian feelings were propagated in the US & UK during the days of the cold war . That’s why Americans & Englishmen who are in their 50s and above still look down upon Russia .

    However , efforts are still on to pollute young minds with negative views about Russia . That’s why you have video games where the Negative character is unmistakably Russian .

    Fortunately , there are a few Americans like you who refuse to be misguided . Courage I guess is what separates Americans like you from the rest .

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Is similar with you and Pakistan/Bangladesh

    Ethnically yes . Around 90% of people in South Asia are from the same race . But that’s where similarities end . Religion , language are big divisions . Case in point 95% of Bangladeshis are Sunni Muslims same as Pakistan where Sunni muslims are in majority . Yet they broke away from Pakistan because they spoke a different language.

    Regular wrote:Russians as Russian nationals or ethnic russians?

    I meant Russian citizens/passport holders .

    Regular wrote:He pretty much said that only serious group made of locals are Oplot

    Ok , just to clarify . You are saying that there are Ukrainian nationals as well who are in the Separatist group ?
    avatar
    fragmachine


    Posts : 121
    Points : 122
    Join date : 2014-05-28
    Location : Poland

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  fragmachine Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:24 pm

    Regular wrote:He pretty much said that only serious group made of locals are Oplot

    Sujoy wrote:Ok , just to clarify . You are saying that there are Ukrainian nationals as well who are in the Separatist group  ?

    Question isn't directed to me but there were alot of Ukrainian soldiers whose refused to fight in the east and joined the Separatists too.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy


    Posts : 2417
    Points : 2575
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Sujoy Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:35 pm

    fragmachine wrote:Question isn't directed to me but there were alot of Ukrainian soldiers whose refused to fight in the east and joined the Separatists too.

    Got it . Thanks for the insight .
    Regular
    Regular


    Posts : 3894
    Points : 3868
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Ukrolovestan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:50 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Just received information that the situation is extremely good for us. My source is checked and usually very trustworthy. It seems that we seriously crimp them!!
    More info? Ukrainian troops are squeezing seps hard. Plenty of losses from arty on sep side. Maybe im pesimistic
    zino
    zino


    Posts : 118
    Points : 130
    Join date : 2013-11-21
    Location : Northern Italy Autonomous Okrug

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  zino Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:22 pm

    German top diplomat upholds sectoral sanctions against Russia
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742426

    So here we are, it seems. The Germans play the hard way. And now? What Russia can do without cut the gas which of course it means war?
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 8839
    Points : 9099
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 35
    Location : Canada

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:01 pm

    zino wrote:German top diplomat upholds sectoral sanctions against Russia
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742426

    So here we are, it seems. The Germans play the hard way. And now? What Russia can do without cut the gas which of course it means war?

    I was reading that it will also hurt Europe as instead, Russian banks can look to Asia and there is still the Singapore and Hong Kong stock exchange.
    Viktor
    Viktor


    Posts : 5796
    Points : 6429
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 44
    Location : Croatia

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Viktor Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:21 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    zino wrote:German top diplomat upholds sectoral sanctions against Russia
    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742426

    So here we are, it seems. The Germans play the hard way. And now? What Russia can do without cut the gas which of course it means war?

    I was reading that it will also hurt Europe as instead, Russian banks can look to Asia and there is still the Singapore and Hong Kong stock exchange.

    There is no need to cut gas. I think that Russian trade surplus with EU will grow considerably as 80% of all Russian exports to EU is gas and oil and that wont change. But what will

    change is export of value added EU products to Russia and that will give chance to Russian manufactures to prove themselves and use this opportunity to grow and develop themselves.

    Russian oligarhs might think about transfering their money to Russia too as this thing is not going anywhere and that might also bring back some money to balance capital outflow.


    It is time to take all money and come back to Motherland!
    Cameron: Russian businessmen in London may fall under sanctions
    Hannibal Barca
    Hannibal Barca


    Posts : 1457
    Points : 1467
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:55 am

    Viktor you are my man! When will you go to Itar Tass?
    avatar
    Firebird


    Posts : 1808
    Points : 1838
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Firebird Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:38 am

    http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/37869.html

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.br/

    Lots of recent developments it seems:-
    The Coalition of the Cocksuckers in the Ukraine has disintegrated.
    The US backed framing of Russia/the Resistance seems to be struggling.
    Lots of anti-Russian press, such as threats to impound Abramovich's yacht.
    (funny how they cry when twats like  Khordokovsky get assets seized by the Ru govt tho..)
    Huge column of military equipment in Rostov.
    Reports of reasonable successes by the Resistance in Donbass.
    Reports of possible NATO troops in the Ukraine around the MH17 site. And nonsense like a Polish-Ukrainian brigade or Ukr-NATO exercise on Ukr soil.
    And reports (extremely premature at this stage) that Germany is considering closer links to BRICS.
    Reports Putin's daughter is being given grief in Holland.

    I wonder what all this means?
    Could the Ukraine cave in sooner rather than  later? Could there be a NATO incursion in the Ukraine? eg in Lvov or something? Will Russia finally move in as "peacekeepers"/on a humanitarian mission?

    PS I usually think I know a reasonable amount about this stuff. But did anyone know Malaysia's war crimes tribunal found Bush and Blair guilty of war crimes. I had no idea at all...
    Again, funny how Malaysia gets it TWICE in recent months...
    "Coincidences" eh.. NOT

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission
    Viktor
    Viktor


    Posts : 5796
    Points : 6429
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 44
    Location : Croatia

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Viktor Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:45 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Viktor you are my man!

    Tnx man.

    Hannibal Barca wrote:When will you go to Itar Tass?

    Whenewer someone calls Very Happy
    avatar
    Vann7


    Posts : 5385
    Points : 5485
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:19 am



    ABout ethnic groups.. of who is Russian or Ukrainian..
    THis can be answered by the following example.. if today the people in the US state of Florida declare their
    independence from USA.. Will they automatically stop being Anglo americans? and become overnight a new "Race"
    of "FLoridans". With the exception of Cubans immigrants and few others.. the Floridans will STILL continue to be
    anglo americans.. just only separated by politics.

    This is the same case of Etchnic Russians vs Ukrainians. Is the same thing. Ukrainians are just Russians from the Ukrainian state that ~23 years ago became independent and that just for a couple of years before Soviet Union was create in 1918 they became again independent for the first time. But that wasnt through referendum or asking anyone but through the invasion of the German Army and the help of Separatist . Ukraine was created stealing lands of Russia empire and attaching the region of LVOV to it ,that was part of Poland. So the real Ukrainians are Russians and the ancestors of any real ukrainian who always lived there.. are Russians.. So it will be impossible for any real Ukrainian in Ukraine to not have Russian grandparents because Before 1918 ,Ukraine did not exist anywhere in the map ,other than a name of just another region like any other inside Russia empire. Ukraine language is just a dialect of Ancient Russian. And the major split in Ukraine comes from the fact that the Polish neo Nazi thugs who live in LVOV region have been financed and trained by the white house and organized to overthrow yakunovych. There have been also a lot of brainwashing programs using television and schools to create Rushophobia in Ukraine teaching lies about Russia. The Euromaidans they come from the west and they never were Russians or part of Russian empire but Polish ,Austrian-Lithuanians. 80% of Ukraine is Russia native lands and kiev was its first capital. Ukrainians and Belarusians are Russians who split at some point from the empire.. consequences of separatist and wars and Siberians are mongols.. not Russians.. and chechens are chechens.
    Tatars are Turks. Georgians are georgians ,possibly decendants of Armenians but not sure. The big Muslin population in souther Russia and Crimea comes from the Muslins invasion from Turkey but also Mongols who allied with the minorities.
    avatar
    Vann7


    Posts : 5385
    Points : 5485
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:57 am

    Regular wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Just received information that the situation is extremely good for us. My source is checked and usually very trustworthy. It seems that we seriously crimp them!!
    More info? Ukrainian troops are squeezing seps hard. Plenty of losses from arty on sep side. Maybe im pesimistic

    All that Russia needs to do to defeat Obama plans in Ukraine ,is just help the separatist hold their place undercover while Ukraine economy collapse. We now have the resign of the PM and serious divisions in the political elite.. If things just continue the same way as now without any major changes on the military front.. The kiev Operation to take eastern ukraine will totally collapse. The Ukraine national guard will not even have food or fuel and people will start to lose their jobs all around Ukraine.. The real revolution will begin when their economical situation totally collapse.. and those Euromaidanuts who wanted to be part of the EU will be pleading Russia to take them back.
    Like it was told before.. Family and food is more important that a Nation Flag.  All said Russia do have very big probabilities to win Ukraine back without firing a single shot its own army. All they need to do is to maintain its economy strong enough and show the Ukrainians with its actions ,that Russia is ready to help ukrainians if they stop the war against the east and stop following US demands, and welcomes a reconciliation process.

    This is why the US state department ,US senate and Pentagon have been extremely desperate to get Russia invade Ukraine to damage their economy ,united Ukrainians against Russia and convince the EU to block all trade with Russia. But if Russia do the opposite and shows its commitment to help Ukrainians , and to solve things peacefully
    with politics.. Then major changes will happen in Ukraine society and will see that it was a mistake to split from Russia and the entire country will disband.. and new government will show and will seek political dialogue and good relations with everyone including Russia. There is lot of propabilities that Russia in the long run will win and defeat
    US plans to turn all Ukraine into a major hostile nation against Russia.

    I really think Obama and the white house greatest mistake will be to invade Ukraine and join forces with the kiev nazis.. they will be seriously underestimating the support Russia have there.. and how Ukrainians forced to join the war by kiev against their will ,will turn their weapons against NATO soldiers ,and shoot at their backs. and why all this war continue.. the pockets of the ukrainians will continue to be empty.. The White house to do have the money
    to maintain a a year long war in eastern Ukraine and keep stable Ukraine while their economy sinks. A revolution will happen across all the country and it will be very bad for the foreign armies that are caught inside Ukraine when that happens.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Morpheus Eberhardt


    Posts : 1925
    Points : 2032
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:42 am

    Vann7 wrote:We now have the resign of the PM and serious divisions in the political elite.

    All of this is only due to the massive losses that the Nazi stooges and their handlers have suffered on the battlefield.

    There is growing evidence that the 5000 encircled Nazis in the southern pocket have already been annihilated, bringing the total Nazi losses to over 10000.

    The Nazi airforce has probably ceased to exist. There is some evidence for that: you haven't heard about any Nazi aerial activity over the last few days, have you. The last of their activity that I have officially heard was their loss of two Su-25 aircraft on the 23rd. This is not surprising at all, of course.

    There is a bit of evidence (mostly analytical, to the extent that I am aware of) that the west of Nonorossiya is going to heat up soon.
    avatar
    Vann7


    Posts : 5385
    Points : 5485
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:15 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:We now have the resign of the PM and serious divisions in the political elite.

    All of this is only due to the massive losses that the Nazi stooges and their handlers have suffered on the battlefield.

    There is growing evidence that the 5000 encircled Nazis in the southern pocket have already been annihilated, bringing the total Nazi losses to over 10000.

    The Nazi airforce has probably ceased to exist. There is some evidence for that: you haven't heard about any Nazi aerial activity over the last few days, have you. The last of their activity that I have officially heard was their loss of two Su-25 aircraft on the 23rd. This is not surprising at all, of course.

    There is a bit of evidence (mostly analytical, to the extent that I am aware of) that the west of Nonorossiya is going to heat up soon.

    Indeed..

    This is why i said ,that all Russia needs to do is undercover help the Rebels Hold their positions while showing being
    fully ready to help Ukraine overcome its economic problems if they stop the war and seek dialogue. You have now a major division in the government and without Russia firing a single shot.  Cool    Ukraine is going to collapse ,not if but when it will do it and how are the only questions. And the white house is desperate to get Russia to start a major war against Ukraine and invade to help Ukrainians unite to counter Russia invasion ,something they could not do by themselves.  

    And the collapse of the country is already in process.

    Two Ukrainian border guards cross into Russia asking for asylum
    On Saturday night, more than 40 Ukrainian servicemen left their military units and asked the militias to help them cross into Russia.

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742453

    Imagine if all border guards do the same? It will only provoke a chain reaction ,withing all the army and if 1/3 of the Ukraine army defects to Russia ,it will be a major blow to Kiev and the US state department . It will force Poroshenko to negotiate for peace and end the war Or Lose the entire nation. If Poroshenko continues the war until the end of year and rebels hold ,he will end with a major civil war in the entire country and ungovernable nation. Im sure that if Poroshenko agree to talk with Putin for a peaceful solution , that Putin will pressure the Rebels for agree with a cease of fire and that they accept to remain part of Ukraine but with Full Autonomy in Donetsk and Lugansk and rights to provide have their own armed security ie.. a federation state.  But also the same for Odessa and all pro Russian cities.

    i tell you it will be next to impossible for US to hold control of Ukraine and keep their puppets in power ,if they become a bankrupt nation. This is the reason the white house is trying to destroy Russia economy first and provoke a major war between Kiev and Russia ,where many civilians killed ,to direct all Ukrainians anger at Russia and not at the US and the EU.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8138
    Points : 8273
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:41 am

    A chessboard drenched in blood

    By Pepe Escobar

    "The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." Everyone remembers the Downing Street Memo, which unveiled the Bush/Blair "policy" in the run-up to the 2003 bombing/invasion/occupation of Iraq. The "policy" was to get rid of Saddam Hussein via a lightning war. The justification was "terrorism" and (non-existent) weapons of mass destruction (WMD), which had "disappeared", mounted in trucks, deep into Syria. Forget about intelligence and facts.

    The tragedy of MH17 - turned, incidentally, into a WMD - might be seen as a warped rerun of imperial policy in Iraq. No need for a memo this time. The "policy" of the Empire of Chaos is clear, and

    multi-pronged; diversify the "pivot to Asia" by establishing a beachhead in Ukraine to sabotage trade between Europe and Russia; expand the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to Ukraine; break the Russia-China strategic partnership; prevent by all means the trade/economic integration of Eurasia, from the Russia-Germany partnership to the New Silk Roads converging from China to the Ruhr; keep Europe under US hegemony.

    The key reason why Russian President Vladimir Putin did not "invade" Eastern Ukraine - as much as he's been enticed to by Washington/NATO - to stop a US military adviser-facilitated running slaughter of civilians is that he does not want to antagonize the European Union, Russia's top trading partner.

    Crucially, Washington's intervention in Kosovo invoking R2P - Responsibility to Protect - was justified at the time for exactly the same reasons a Russian intervention in Donetsk and Luhansk could be totally justified now. Except that Moscow won't do it - because the Kremlin is playing a very long game.

    The MH17 tragedy may have been a horrendous mistake. But it may also have been a desperate gambit by the Kiev minions of the Empire of Chaos. By now, Russian intel may have already mastered the key facts. Washington's predictable modus operandi was to shoot from the hip, igniting and in theory winning the spin war, and doubling down by releasing the proverbial army of "top officials" brimming with social media evidence. Moscow will take time to build a meticulous case, and only then lay it out in detail.

    Hegemony lost
    The Big Picture spells out the Empire of Chaos elites as extremely uneasy. Take Dr Zbigniew "The Grand Chessboard" Brzezinski, who as a former foreign policy mentor has the ears of the increasingly dejected White House paperboy. Dr Zbig was on CNN this Sunday challenging Europe's leaders to "stand up to Putin". He wonders if "Europe wants to become a satellite" and worries about "a moment of decisive significance for the future of the system - of the world system".

    And it's all Putin's fault, of course: "We're not starting the Cold War. He [Putin] has started it. But he has gotten himself into a horrendous jam. I strongly suspect that a lot of people in Russia, even not far away from him who are worried that Russia's status in the world is dramatically being undermined, that Russia's economically beginning to fail, that Russia's threatened by the prospect of becoming a satellite to China, that Russia's becoming self-isolated and discredited."

    Obviously Dr Zbig is blissfully unaware of the finer points of the Russia-China strategic partnership, as well as their concerted voice inside the BRICS, the G-20 and myriad other mechanisms. His trademark Russophobia in the end always gets the better of him. And to think that in his latest book, Strategic Vision (2012), Dr Zbig was in favor of an enlarged "West" annexing Turkey and Russia, with the Empire of Chaos posing as "promoter" and "guarantor" of broader unity in the West, and a "balancer" and "conciliator" between the major powers in the East. A quick look at the record since 2012 - Libya, Syria, Ukraine, encirclement of China - reveals the Empire of Chaos only as fomenter of, what else, chaos.

    Now compare a fearful Dr Zbig with Immanuel Wallerstein - who was a huge influence in my 2007 warped geopolitical travel book Globalistan. In this piece (in Spanish) Wallerstein argues that the Empire of Chaos simply can't accept its geopolitical decadence - and that's why it has become so dangerous. Restoring its hegemony in the world-system has become the supreme obsession; and that's where the whole "policy" that is an essential background to the MH17 tragedy reveals Ukraine as the definitive do or die battleground.

    In Europe, everything hinges on Germany. Especially after the National Security Agency scandal and its ramifications, the key debate raging in Berlin is how to position itself geopolitically bypassing the US. And the answer, as pressed by large swathes of German big business, lies in a strategic partnership with Russia.

    Show me the missile
    Slowly, with no hype and no spin, the Russian military are starting to deliver the goods. Here, courtesy of the Vineyard of The Saker blog, is their key presentation so far. As The Saker put it, Russia had - and has - a "20/20 radar vision", or full spectrum surveillance, on everything going on in Ukraine. And so, arguably, does NATO. What the Russian Ministry of Defense is saying is as important as the clues it is laying out for experts to follow.

    The damaged MH17 starboard jet engine suggests a shape charge from an air-to-air missile - and not a Buk; that's consistent with the Russian Ministry of Defense presentation graphically highlighting an Ukrainian SU-25 shadowing MH17. Increasingly, the Buk scenario - hysterically peddled by the Empire of Chaos - is being discarded. Not to mention, again, that not a single eyewitness saw the very graphic, thick missile trace that would have been clearly visible had a Buk been used.

    Way beyond the established fact of a Ukrainian SU-25 trailing MH17, plenty of unanswered questions remain, some involving a murky security procedure at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport - where security is operated by ICTS, an Israeli company based in The Netherlands and founded by former officers from the Israeli Shin Bet intel agency. And then there is the unexplained presence of "foreign" advisors in Kiev's control tower.  

    As much as Bashar al-Assad in Syria had absolutely no motive to "gas his own people" - as the hysterical narrative went at the time - the Eastern Ukraine federalists have no motive to down a civilian airliner. And as much as Washington doesn't give a damn about the current civilian slaughter in Gaza, it doesn't give a damn about the MH17 civilian deaths; the one and only obsession is to force Europeans to sanction Russia to death. Translation: break up Europe-Russia commercial and geopolitical integration.

    One week before the MH17 tragedy, the Russian Institute of Strategic Studies was already sounding the alarm concerning the Empire of Chaos's "policy" and its refusal to "adhere to the principles and norms of international law and the rules and spirit of the existing system of international relations".

    Moscow, in building its case on the MH17 tragedy, will bide its time to debunk Kiev's claims and maximize its own credibility. The game now moves to the black boxes and the cockpit voice recorder. Still Ukraine will remain the do or die battlefield - a chessboard drenched in blood.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-230714.html
    avatar
    Austin


    Posts : 7617
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Austin Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:54 am

    Long but good read

    MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag
    arpakola
    arpakola


    Posts : 1510
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2014-03-12
    Age : 57
    Location : Athens

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:01 am

    Even that which manages to percolate into the open sources from the cauldron speaks about huge losses in personnel and equipment. The notorious 72-nd brigade altogether became a symbol of the catastrophe in the South Donbass.
    2 representative videos are shown below. First a description from those who are located in the cauldron and then a temper tantrum in Kiev about what is happening.



    The most interesting part is that the enlightenment doesn't occur for now, the people don't understand the reasons for this war and the mechanism of stopping it. The problem is not in body armor or god, but it is that they themselves put a fascist regime on their necks, which is shipping people to a civil war that it created by itself. This serves as an assurance of further victims and suffering. And until they understand this, they will keep receiving their children back in zinc coffins either in whole or in parts. This is a price of stupidity.

    Sponsored content


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6 - Page 32 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Nov 18, 2024 11:32 pm