Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

PapaDragon wrote:
The thing is that Gorshkov class frigate IS replacement for old destroyers.

They are somewhat smaller but in terms of capabilities they are far superior. Udaloi class for example is focused on anti-sub operations and has pretty weak anti-ship and anti-air capabilities and no land-attack capability whatsoever.

Gorshkov class on the other hand s true multirole warship with no real downsides: ships, subs, aircraft, land targets it can handle them all without a problem.

These frigates have potential to become RU Navy's equivalent of Arley Burkh destroyer. Basically mass produced multirole backbone of the whole Navy.

As for large destroyers they already said that they are taking their time because they want to be careful and avoid expensive mistakes made during Zumwalt program by US Navy

I do not know many exact details of the new destroyers of the project 23560, but I do not expect a weaker ship than a modern frigate. I would expect a ship in the mold of the new frigates but bigger and stronger. One of the few details that I know about the new project 23560 is that want to replace the ships of the projects 956 (destroyers) and 1155/11551 (anti submarine destroyers). It seems that the new destroyer want to be also multirole.

If the project 23560 is good enough to go forward, I think it would be positive to start the production (of the first unit) fast.

eehnie wrote:..................................

I do not know many exact details of the new destroyers of the project 23560, but I do not expect a weaker ship than a modern frigate. I would expect a ship in the mold of the new frigates but bigger and stronger. One of the few details that I know about the new project 23560 is that want to replace the ships of the projects 956 (destroyers) and 1155/11551 (anti submarine destroyers). It seems that the new destroyer want to be also multirole.

If the project 23560 is good enough to go forward, I think it would be positive to start the production (of the first unit) fast.

Project 23560 (Lider) will be nothing like a frigate. This thing will be massive. In terms of size it should be similar to Zumwalt maybe even larger. Keep in mind that benefits of nuclear propulsion are higher the bigger vessels get, so RU Navy will be going for something lot bigger than Gorshkov corvette.

It will of course be multirole, this goes without saying. VMF have completely abandoned building specialized combat vessels for anything above missile boats. Those too would have been multirole had size permitted it.

As for construction schedule frigates should take priority simply because a lot of the ships in service now are approaching expiration date and need to be replaced with something urgently. This is where Gorshkov class comes in. All current specialized frigates and destroyers will be replaced with vessels that are not only more advanced but are also true multirole ships.  

In a time it takes to build one destroyer they can complete dozen frigates. They need to replace current fleet capacities before they can expand them. That is what new destroyers are for, expanding capacity.

Same logic applies to landing ships: they will be building smaller Priboi class to replace current Ropucha-class landing ships before they build Mistral replacements (Lavina class)

You are talking about replacement of the current destroyers, and maybe cruisers by frigates, then, because the current frigates in service are modern (only 3 from before 2002 and one is in the reserve).

I really do not think that the Russian fleet is old. I do not think that ships of the 1980s, in this case destroyers and cruisers, need to be replaced by age, when we see still some ship from 1968 and 1969 in active service. I think that Russia has been decommissioning ships young still to adapt its size but not by age. Russia should have been keeping the most adapted ships of the Sovietic fleet to the current requirements, then, these ships should remain longer when Russia reachs the projected size for its fleet.

The people should not expect a fast retirement of Sovietic ships until the last. Early retirement of ships is a bad business, and only has some sense when they are not needed. And the Russian fleet will reach the balance for its new right size before the sovietic ships to be finished. It means the last Sovietic ships will be needed ships, and as consequence will not be retired early as others. The last Sovietic ships will remain until to complete their entire life cycle.

If there are still early retirements of some destroyers and cruisers, is because the retired ships are not considered necessary. It means they will not be replaced.

If there are not more early retirements is because the current ships are needed, and then would remain until to be old. The ships obviously would be replaced then.

Russia seems to be decommissioning still young ships, or at least did it until very recently (at least until 2014). Until now the reason of the new ships has not been to replace the retired ships, but to cover new needs and to develop modern ships, opening new lines of production of modern ships. Despite the lack of production of new ships Russia is keeps living the research, development and production lines of new ships. It is likely that Russia did what you said at this level, but Russia has not a need to keep what you said for the replacement of other ships in the short-mid term.

I do not expect Russia expanding its fleet significantly in the short-mid term. Also I do not expect Russia producing many ships in the short-mid term. It would make the recent decommission of young ships a big mistake, proving a bad calculus of the right size for the Russian fleet in recent years. I would expect a Russian fleet with stable number of ships in at least one decade, maybe two, after reaching the wanted size. I would expect the calculus of the size of the fleet in the previous years to be right.

I don't think that ships from the 80's should be replaced. In fact they are being upgraded as we speak. Even Tarantul boats will be getting Uran launchers, Udalois too. One Slava class is finishing total overhaul with others to follow. Kirov class as well.

But the fact is that they are not getting any younger and there are not enough of them. And there are many different ship classes with few units built. Most frigates have just 2 ships in series.

Current fleet will definitely stay in use but it needs to be supplemented with fresh hulls. And these new ships will all be multirole which is pretty big advantage.

PapaDragon wrote:
I don't think that ships from the 80's should be replaced. In fact they are being upgraded as we speak. Even Tarantul boats will be getting Uran launchers, Udalois too. One Slava class is finishing total overhaul with others to follow. Kirov class as well.

But the fact is that they are not getting any younger and there are not enough of them. And there are many different ship classes with few units built. Most frigates have just 2 ships in series.

Current fleet will definitely stay in use but it needs to be supplemented with fresh hulls. And these new ships will all be multirole which is pretty big advantage.

That's why they are bulding Gorshkovs and not bigger ships. They need them to support their big sips like Slavas and Kirvov. Look in Syria they send Moskva with the Smetlivy (really old ship). Against the NATO force in mediterrean they couldn't do a lot. Moskva could probably sink some of them but then it would be destroyed for sure. Smetlivy won't do anything and would be destroyed at the bigining.

Russia really need a medium size ship build in big numbers. US ships compared to others are not the best but they have a lot of them. Most of them are Burks which are 20+ years old.

The new destroyer will not be started for a long time. Even if they start it, they will built 2 or 3 of them instead of much more Gorshkovs. Russia economy couldn't support much more and from a military point of view it's useless just 2 big ships instead of 5-6 medium ships with the same armement (but less shiped) but that can cover much more areas. Even european countries with a better eco situation than russia can't produce many big ships. France for exemple has just 2 Horizon class with 4 cancelled. US can but I think they will implode like USSR if they continue to put all that money in weapons.

Its happening

USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

Viktor wrote:Its happening  

USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

17.5 k tons. The Kirovs are what 24k and 28k fully laden.
So basically, thats (not far off!) a modern day Kirov? Bearing in mind greater automation and compactness these days. That really is saying "don't fuck with us" Haha.

Firebird wrote:

Viktor wrote:Its happening  

USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

17.5 k tons. The Kirovs are what 24k and 28k fully laden.
So basically, thats (not far off!) a modern day Kirov? Bearing in mind greater automation and compactness these days. That really is saying "don't fuck with us" Haha.

No it's still a destroyer class, and keep in mind the new frigates being inducted are comparable to yesterdays destroyers... which brings up some interesting questions such as: With such a large displacement for a 'destroyer' does that mean that...a) Future cruisers and battle cruisers will be massive even for their category? Or b) the large displacement is to compensate because the navy will no longer acquire cruisers and battlecruisers, but will settle on making more humongous destroyers instead.

I'm leaning more towards the latter (b).

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Firebird wrote:

Viktor wrote:Its happening  

USC and Ministry of Defense of Russia intend to conclude a contract on the destroyer "Leader"

According to the preliminary design, presented at the "Army-2015", "Leader" will have a displacement of about 17.5 thousand tons, a length of 200 meters and a width of 20 meters. The ship will carry on board more than 200 missiles of various purposes - ship, anti-aircraft and anti-submarine.

17.5 k tons. The Kirovs are what 24k and 28k fully laden.
So basically, thats (not far off!) a modern day Kirov? Bearing in mind greater automation and compactness these days. That really is saying "don't fuck with us" Haha.

No it's still a destroyer class, and keep in mind the new frigates being inducted are comparable to yesterdays destroyers... which brings up some interesting questions such as: With such a large displacement for a 'destroyer' does that mean that...a) Future cruisers and battle cruisers will be massive even for their category? Or b) the large displacement is to compensate because the navy will no longer acquire cruisers and battlecruisers, but will settle on making more humongous destroyers instead.

I'm leaning more towards the latter (b).

This ship is fairly as big as most of the current cruisers. Looking at the similar age of both the current Russian cruisers and destroyers, maybe perfectly the b) option.

Well there is people calling cruiser to this project.

Almost 50% bigger then the Slava Class Crusier...

http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_1164.htm

Design of Project 23560E "Shkval-class" Destroyer (export variant of Leader-class).

Russia to Build Leader-Class Destroyer That Will Outgun Largest US Warships

The Leader-class destroyers, expected to be equipped with Kalibr-NK cruise missiles and S-500 air defense systems, could soon be added to Russia's impressive arsenal of cutting edge military equipment. Russia's Ministry of Defense is currently reviewing the design and could ink the ship building contract in the near future.

Russia Creating Cutting-Edge Universal Nuclear Battleship

Russia’s Severnoye Design Bureau has started working on the Project 23560 Leader-class destroyer that will combine the features of a destroyer, large antisubmarine warship and guided missile cruiser.

The ship will most likely be nuclear powered. It will be capable of spending up to 90 days offshore without additional refueling or support.

“The Leader will be a universal ship, triple-hatted as a destroyer, large ASW ship and guided missile cruiser while being smaller than Project 1144 ships and carrying far more weaponry,” news publication The Defence Talk reported Valeriy Polovinki, advisor to the director general of the Krylov State Research Center that worked out the destroyer’s preliminary design military, as saying.

He further said that the self-contained operation of such ships is usually based on their stock of provisions and their nuclear propulsion plants can go on without refueling for years.

The Leader-class destroyers are expected to be equipped with Kalibr-NK cruise missiles and S-500 air defense systems.

As exhibited by its mockup, the destroyer will be 200 meters long and 20 meters wide. It will be able to travel at a maximum speed of 32 knots.

The multipurpose warship will have anti-aircraft, anti-ballistic missile, anti-surface and anti-submarine capabilities.

It is meant to replace the Sovremennyy-class destroyers, the main anti-surface warships of the Russian Navy, as well as the Slava-class cruisers and the Udaloy I class anti-submarine destroyers.

It will further be equipped with P-800 Oniks supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of more than 300 kilometers. The Zircon hypersonic missiles could also be added to the arsenal.

The next-generation warship will also have a landing pad for two Kamov Ka-27 or Kamov Ka-32 helicopters.

The vertical launch systems (VLS) of the Poliment-Redut system will handle short-range aerial threats. The VLS will be controlled by the Poliment active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system. The Leader may carry two modules of the navalized version of the Pantsir-M SAM/gun system.

“Finally the Leader will also get a 130-mm A-192 versatile gun. Overall, the destroyer’s weapons arsenal will include a total of 200 missiles,” Izvestia reported.

“Nuclear-powered cruisers that have the self-sustained operating capability and formidable weaponry can operate anywhere in the world. The Russian Navy has not ordered ships like that since 1989, which means that the country has regained geopolitical interests in remote corners of the world,” Russian news publication Izvestia reported former Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Igor Kasatonov as saying.

Valery Polovinkin, advisor to the director general of the Krylov State Research Center which worked out the destroyer’s preliminary design, says the sophisticated ship will combine the best of several types of surface combatants at once.

Its antimissile and space defense capabilities will serve as a “kind of strong point in the ocean.”

Naval arms expert Alexander Mozgovoi told the publication that the final design of the Leader and its weapons arsenal may evolve considerably as the engineering design is being worked out.

Metal for the new warship is set to be cut in the beginning of 2018, according to the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC). A series of eight destroyers is planned to be build.

According to the expert, such a large-scale program was chosen due to the exclusive problem with the Russian Navy’s import substitution, the lack of a domestic manufacturer of gas-turbine propulsion plants.

“On the other hand, nuclear ones are in production in this country, the success of the nuclear-powered icebreaker construction program being a good case in point. The Kalibr-armed Project 21631 ships, which received raving reports during the Syrian campaign, have short legs, with their endurance being within 30 days – approximately as long as it takes them to cruise from Murmansk to Gibraltar. Nuclear-powered destroyers have a virtually unlimited range,” The Defence Talk reported Mozgovoi as saying.

The ship will displace about 17,500 tons, which will make it close enough to Project 1144 Orlan-class heavy missile cruisers in terms of dimensions.

According to Igor Kasatonov, the development of such a destroyer ship implies certain geopolitical interests of Russia’s leadership, Izvestia reported.

http://sputniknews.com/military/20160723/1043533409/russia-nuclear-battleship.html

Russian Navy Plans Eight New Missile Cruisers

The Russian Navy is preparing a contract with the nation’s largest shipbuilder for eight new nuclear-powered missile cruisers.

According to local media, United Shipbuilding Corporation Deputy President Igor Ponomarev says the contract is currently under review. The construction of the first vessel is expected to commence in early 2018.

The new missile cruisers will be designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau in St. Petersburg and are expected to have a deadweight of 17,500 tons, a length of 200 meters (650 feet0 and to be equipped with more than 200 missiles including a version of the S-500, the newest and most lethal Russian missile system.

These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

Pravda reports former deputy commander of the navy, Admiral Igor Kasatonov, saying: “Nuclear-powered cruisers are autonomous and well-armed. They can face various challenges in any part of the world ocean. The Russian Navy has not placed orders for vessels of this class since 1989. The decision to build several ships means that Russia pursues geopolitical interests to maintain its presence in remote parts of the world.”


http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/russian-navy-plans-eight-new-missile-cruisers

It is very positive for the Russian Navy to open the line of production of this new project as soon as possible. It engages very well with the strategy that can be expected for the Russian Navy.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:[........

These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

..........

If that data is accurate they will be lot more dangerous than Burkes.

PapaDragon wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:[........

These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

..........

If that data is accurate they will be lot more dangerous than Burkes.

They use the same BS when describing the T-14. It's "comparable" with 1980's western designs, even though the specs, and a little basic common sense paint a completely different picture.

Zivo wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:[........

These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

..........

If that data is accurate they will be lot more dangerous than Burkes.

They use the same BS when describing the T-14. It's "comparable" with 1980's western designs, even though the specs, and a little basic common sense paint a completely different picture.

The propaganda is utterly inane. The Arleigh Burke displaces 9800 tons whereas the Lider is supposed to be 17500 tons.
Russia packs more missile punch into its ships than anything from Uncle Scam. It is physically impossible for the Lider to
have similar firepower levels to the Burke. It will have at least twice the firepower.

For f*ck's sake the US does not even have any hypersonic anti-ship missiles. It started testing prototypes in 2010:

http://osnetdaily.com/2016/03/hypersonic-arms-race-ahead/

Of course, because the US announces a missile system then it will surely be number one in the world even though Russia has
had decades more experience with such system.

Construction of the first Lider should begin in 2019;

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20160728/1043701723/russia-navy-ship-lider.html

I think it is clever of them to not make a 30K ton heavy cruiser type that they might make four of and perhaps make 4 anti ship destroyers and 4 anti sub destroyers.

Instead they are making 8 ships that are anti ship destroyers and anti sub destroyers and are cruisers too.

Together with 15-20 Gorshkov type ships they should have a tight navy.

I think the reason for moving the start of construction for the "Lider" to 2019 is to synchronize it with the completion of Phase 1 (2016-2017 and 2016-2019) of the expansion and modernization of the Severnaya Shipyard as stated in these Portnews article:

Portnews

Investment programme of USC provides for construction of a dry dock to build vessels of up to 250 meters in length and up to 73 meters in breadth from 2017 (phase 1).

Portnews

The project to be financed through the Federal Targeted Programme will be implemented in four phases.

The first phase (2016 - 2017) provides for reconstruction of the western embankment and construction of new utilities. Investments into this phase are estimated at some RUB 2 bln.

The second phase (2016 - 2019) implies the construction of the dry dock’s phase 1 with a dock area, covered slip, new painting chambers and installation of Goliath-type crane of 1,200 t in capacity and two cranes of 350 t in capacity. Investments – about RUB 14 bln. State expert approval of this phase is scheduled for spring 2016.

The third phase (2019 – 2021) will include the construction of a new hull plating shop, metal storage facility and a logistics complex. Investments will total some RUB 15 bln.

The fourth phase (2022 – 2024) is foreseen for extension of the dry dock, construction of a new two-way slip and reconstruction of the outfitting quay. Investments will be estimated upon completion of the project documents.

The technical design of the destroyer "Leader" will develop in 2017

The technical design of the destroyer "Leader" will develop in 2017
Preliminary design of prospective destroyer "Leader" is completed, the results are discussed. Development of technical project could begin in 2017
September 6, 2016, 9:52

Preliminary design of prospective destroyer "Leader" is completed, the results are discussed. Development of the technical project may begin as early as 2017. This was stated by the Vice-President of "United Shipbuilding Corporation" in military shipbuilding Igor Ponomarev, reports RIA Novosti .

Creation of the project, he said, will be launched in accordance with the task of the state defense order, after considering and discussing the outcome of the schematic design. Ponomarev expressed the hope that it will happen in 2017.

The difference between the sketch and technical project consists in the fact that the first contains the basic decisions that give a general idea about the structure of the proposed facility, and in the second - the final decision, giving a complete picture of the device, which can already be used for the production of design documentation.

On the development in Russia of a new large area of ​​ocean ship under the code "Leader" became known in the early 2010s. Officially, he is still referred to as the destroyer, though experts analyzing the likely size of the ship and claimed armament confidently call it a missile cruiser.

As previously reported, in October 2014, the Russian Navy plans to order 12 such ships - six for the Northern and Pacific fleets. Sources in the defense industry reported that the laying of the "Leader" is scheduled for 2017. First, however, according to knowledgeable people, the lead ship is unlikely to be handed over to the Navy before 2023-2025 years.

Displacement "Leader", according to sources in the industry, will be from 10 to 15 thousand tons. The armament will include anti-aircraft missiles prospective S-500 (with the possibility of defeat ballistic targets in near space purposes) and standard shock weapons complexes "Caliber" and "Onyx".

https://defence.ru/mashino-stroenie/tekhnicheskii-proekt-esminca-lider-nachnut-razrabativat-v-2017-godu/

Ministry of Defense has decided to order eight nuclear destroyers "Leader"

Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017

Russia's Defense Ministry plans to order eight nuclear destroyers like "Leader", the construction of the first ship is scheduled to begin in 2018. This was announced today Tass source in the military-industrial complex.

According to him, the Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017, after which the Defense Ministry will sign a contract with the United Shipbuilding Corporation to build a series of ships of this type.

"Construction of the head of" Leader "is due to start in early 2018 and be completed by the end of 2022, that is, it will last for five years," - a spokesman said.

"It was originally supposed to build for the Navy a series of 12 destroyers, then this number has been reduced to eight units - four for the Northern and Pacific fleets. On the other fleets - the Baltic and the Black Sea - the destroyers" Leader "service to bear will not be," - said the source.

He said that the "leader" were armed with missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx", anti-aircraft missile systems S-500 "Prometheus" and "Poliment-Redoute" (currently being tested at the head frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov"), and and rocket-gun complex "Carapace-M".

https://defence.ru/mashino-stroenie/minoboroni-reshilo-zakazat-vosem-atomnikh-esmincev-lider/

AlfaT8 wrote:...............

No Paket??

It's a freakin destroyer. It will have torpedoes no problem.