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Capabilities of the future MiG-41 = flying S-500 system. Which means a radar with a range of up to 1.000km against medium-size targets (F-15 like) and missiles with a range of up to 600km.
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PAK DP prospective long-range interceptor
Hole- Posts : 11122
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GunshipDemocracy
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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Hole wrote:Capabilities of the future MiG-41 = flying S-500 system. Which means a radar with a range of up to 1.000km against medium-size targets (F-15 like) and missiles with a range of up to 600km.
That is new perspective on things. I wonder how much of it will be implemented.
Hole- Posts : 11122
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The MiG-31BM can shoot down planes in nearly 300km distance. Its successor has to be better than that. There is much talk about flying in near space and so on, but I think this requirements are much more important. The new ultra-long-range AAM should also be capable to shoot down IRBM´s (maybe even ICBM´s) and satellites, plus planes, cruise missiles and so on.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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Hole wrote:The MiG-31BM can shoot down planes in nearly 300km distance. Its successor has to be better than that. There is much talk about flying in near space and so on, but I think this requirements are much more important. The new ultra-long-range AAM should also be capable to shoot down IRBM´s (maybe even ICBM´s) and satellites, plus planes, cruise missiles and so on.
not that I am disputing need to shoot IRBMs . However implementation of thsi with MiGs I see as challenging. You'd need to synchronize MiGs in the air over protected area with time when IRBMs are flying over.
With satellites or prompt global strike is more feasible. PGM needs half hour or so to reach you. Satellites are moving over predictable orbits. Prhaps also X-37 orbital bombers can be targets?
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Hole wrote:Capabilities of the future MiG-41 = flying S-500 system. Which means a radar with a range of up to 1.000km against medium-size targets (F-15 like) and missiles with a range of up to 600km.
Interesting enough I proposed the idea that Khinzal could be used for this purpose as an auxiliary ability, because it has both the range (2000km) and the speed (Mach 10), but for the sensors it could use the help of ground based unified IADS with ground radars including the ones incorporated in Buk-2/3, S-300V4/S-400/S-500 as well as OTH radar. I know that wasn't the solution that you were talking about, but the ultra-long range AAM would need the development cycle of Zirkon to finish first, as the mature technology would likely benefit almost all the missile systems within the Federation. Also to get the radar to 1000km, the development cycle of ROFAR would need to conclude first as well.
GunshipDemocracy wrote:
not that I am disputing need to shoot IRBMs . However implementation of thsi with MiGs I see as challenging. You'd need to synchronize MiGs in the air over protected area with time when IRBMs are flying over.
The MiG-31's radar was designed for that purpose. A whole squadron of MiG-31's radars can unify and cover an area 1,400km's wide.
Hole- Posts : 11122
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A few weeks ago two MiG-31´s were used to shoot down a ballistic missile. Not a medium range one but nevertheless.
With the technology of the Su-57 radar and a larger antenna 600 - 700km could be achieved. True, 1.000km would need an even bigger radar - or, like you said, new technology.
With the technology of the Su-57 radar and a larger antenna 600 - 700km could be achieved. True, 1.000km would need an even bigger radar - or, like you said, new technology.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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Hole wrote:A few weeks ago two MiG-31´s were used to shoot down a ballistic missile. Not a medium range one but nevertheless.
With the technology of the Su-57 radar and a larger antenna 600 - 700km could be achieved. True, 1.000km would need an even bigger radar - or, like you said, new technology.
+ @magnum
I have no doubts about possibility but timing. Missile flying 4km/s in one minute flies 240km. You are late by 2 minutes and target moved 500km away.
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Satellites + Woronesch radars. Plus a few planes have to be in the air to make a diference. Maybe the idea of a super-heavy interceptor (120+ tons) isn´t that bad. Crew of 2 + 2. Could stay in the air for up to 24 Hours with IFR.
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Hole wrote:Satellites + Woronesch radars. Plus a few planes have to be in the air to make a diference. Maybe the idea of a super-heavy interceptor (120+ tons) isn´t that bad. Crew of 2 + 2. Could stay in the air for up to 24 Hours with IFR.
I have doubts if such complicated system works for IRBM. They fly 12-15 minutes form start.
I think such heavy an high flying interceptor rather is to
1) counter massive bomb raids of US stealth bombers (kill carrier before it shoots missiles)
2) salvos of CMs
3) satellites
4) space bombers (like X37)
5) hypersonic intruders like PGE
6) classical fighter intruders
7) bombing (? like kinzhal tossing on 4000km?)
Hole- Posts : 11122
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This complicated scenario works with ground-based interceptors. Why shouldn´t it work with a plane? Like I said, it would only work it there is a interceptor in the area.
If an attack comes from the Pacific, the start is detected by satellites, then the Woronesh radar will detect it. The data is send to an interceptor flying in the near of Kamtschatka. The WSO aims the radar onto the ICBM and fires a R-XXX. Then, hopefully, BUMM.
We are living in the time of net-centric warfare. All the informtion would be send automatically trough the command system. It would take Five minutes to identify the flight path of the incoming ballistic missile and another two or three minutes for the inteceptor to fire.
If an attack comes from the Pacific, the start is detected by satellites, then the Woronesh radar will detect it. The data is send to an interceptor flying in the near of Kamtschatka. The WSO aims the radar onto the ICBM and fires a R-XXX. Then, hopefully, BUMM.
We are living in the time of net-centric warfare. All the informtion would be send automatically trough the command system. It would take Five minutes to identify the flight path of the incoming ballistic missile and another two or three minutes for the inteceptor to fire.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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Hole wrote:This complicated scenario works with ground-based interceptors. Why shouldn´t it work with a plane? Like I said, it would only work it there is a interceptor in the area.
perhaps because before interceptor starts and gets to altitude (assuming they are start ready) S-400 or S-500 is already reaching the target?
MiG-31 climbs ~210m/s
top speed is 3,400 km/h -> 945 m/s
Lets MiG-41 is to climb ~400m/s -> 20km you gonna reach in ~ 1 minute
Takeoff + pilots reaches cockpit and buckles up 2-3 mins
You already lost 4 mins comparing to S-500.
Your max speed (which is not form airfield) is 1250 m/s even 125 km you need 100 seconds.
So to be able to shoot you used 5 minutes Just to be able to fire missiles.
In between S-500 missile can reach ~5km/s thus to travel 500km you need 100 seconds ~1,5minutes. Pilot wont even reach cockpit during this time.
Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Hole- Posts : 11122
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Read the last sentence of your one quote again.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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Hole wrote:Read the last sentence of your one quote again.
reedited, thx
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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The thing is that the MiG-41 can fly out over the arctic ocean and out over the pacific ocean and then launch weapons from there... or anywhere over Russian airspace... which the S-500 cannot do easily.
We are not talking about MiG-41 replacing S-500, we are talking about improving the MiG-31 to make it more capable.
The ability to fly to a position to be better able to hit a satellite as it goes over would be useful, but I suspect most of the time it will be doing what the MiG-31 did... patrolling Russian airspace looking for low flying threats and stealth bombers... those operating in western european Russia could also reach deep into EU airspace and shoot down some AWACS and JSTARs platforms without leaving Russian airspace... which would be useful...
We are not talking about MiG-41 replacing S-500, we are talking about improving the MiG-31 to make it more capable.
The ability to fly to a position to be better able to hit a satellite as it goes over would be useful, but I suspect most of the time it will be doing what the MiG-31 did... patrolling Russian airspace looking for low flying threats and stealth bombers... those operating in western european Russia could also reach deep into EU airspace and shoot down some AWACS and JSTARs platforms without leaving Russian airspace... which would be useful...
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I wouldn't assume what this so far not even paper concept aircraft can do, we know nothing sides some words from it's creator who is going to oversell it.
Any speculations of a MIG-41 is purely user created at this point, So I wouldn't go around saying it can do this and it can do that.
Any speculations of a MIG-41 is purely user created at this point, So I wouldn't go around saying it can do this and it can do that.
Hole- Posts : 11122
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Without speculation this forum would only be half the fun.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
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They are not going to promise something they can't deliver.... they haven't said they want a mach 12 aircraft able to shoot down ICBMs over the US or anything.
In fact considering their development of new hypersonic missiles the speed of Mach 4.3 is actually rather conservative and as I have mentioned would require technologies that are already rather mature in terms of ramjet cycle engines and heat resistant materials for the airframe.
For all we know it might have a canopy with no transparency... it might have recessed IRST type sensors offering camera positions for all round virtual cockpit views without having any transparency at all.
The sort of thing currently being used on attack helos where the turret optical sensor on the nose projects the outside view to the pilots helmet so they get a virtual view of the world as if their head was place at the nose of the aircraft and they can see through their instruments and framing and cockpit of the aircraft in helmet mounted sights.
It would further reduce drag, and make higher speeds easier because you would have no issues of canopies overheating.
With internal weapons bays you could have armoured covers for the canopy so you could take off and land with the canopy exposed and then as you climb it closes over and protects the canopy from the airstream and the pilot and backseater can go virtual...
You would need a complete ejection capsule anyway at the speeds and altitudes this aircraft will operate at so completely enclosing the pilot and crew would make sense in that regard too.
In fact considering their development of new hypersonic missiles the speed of Mach 4.3 is actually rather conservative and as I have mentioned would require technologies that are already rather mature in terms of ramjet cycle engines and heat resistant materials for the airframe.
For all we know it might have a canopy with no transparency... it might have recessed IRST type sensors offering camera positions for all round virtual cockpit views without having any transparency at all.
The sort of thing currently being used on attack helos where the turret optical sensor on the nose projects the outside view to the pilots helmet so they get a virtual view of the world as if their head was place at the nose of the aircraft and they can see through their instruments and framing and cockpit of the aircraft in helmet mounted sights.
It would further reduce drag, and make higher speeds easier because you would have no issues of canopies overheating.
With internal weapons bays you could have armoured covers for the canopy so you could take off and land with the canopy exposed and then as you climb it closes over and protects the canopy from the airstream and the pilot and backseater can go virtual...
You would need a complete ejection capsule anyway at the speeds and altitudes this aircraft will operate at so completely enclosing the pilot and crew would make sense in that regard too.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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GarryB wrote:
For all we know it might have a canopy with no transparency... it might have recessed IRST type sensors offering camera positions for all round virtual cockpit views without having any transparency at all.
Presenting the MiG - ADF-01 FALKEN
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6171
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Paralay claims that MiG-301 was real project. Characteristics do ring the bell?
http://paralay.world/301.html
Those guys in turn call source:
https://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/301/mig301_e.htm
Aviatsia i Kosmonavtika № 11-12 '1998;
anybody can check it? in free time
and here is also mentioned combo ram-turbojet engines.
Layout density of a steel plane, empty 292 kg / m3, maximum weight 626 kg / m3
Weight maximum 95152 kg
Weight normal 89152 kg
Weight empty 44384 kg
Weight of fuel 38568 kg
Weight 12000 kg load
Service weight 200 kg
Wing area 200 m2
Wing load 446 - 476 kg / m2
length 40.0 m
span of 13.2 m / 29.6 m
height is 7.13 m
maximum speed of 5300 km / h
cruising speed of 4250 km / h (M = 4) at an altitude of 25-27 km
practical ceiling 37000 m
range maximum 7000 - 9000 km
http://paralay.world/301.html
Those guys in turn call source:
https://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/301/mig301_e.htm
Aviatsia i Kosmonavtika № 11-12 '1998;
anybody can check it? in free time
and here is also mentioned combo ram-turbojet engines. Layout density of a steel plane, empty 292 kg / m3, maximum weight 626 kg / m3
Weight maximum 95152 kg
Weight normal 89152 kg
Weight empty 44384 kg
Weight of fuel 38568 kg
Weight 12000 kg load
Service weight 200 kg
Wing area 200 m2
Wing load 446 - 476 kg / m2
length 40.0 m
span of 13.2 m / 29.6 m
height is 7.13 m
maximum speed of 5300 km / h
cruising speed of 4250 km / h (M = 4) at an altitude of 25-27 km
practical ceiling 37000 m
range maximum 7000 - 9000 km
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1459
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Hole wrote:Capabilities of the future MiG-41 = flying S-500 system. Which means a radar with a range of up to 1.000km against medium-size targets (F-15 like) and missiles with a range of up to 600km.
and repeat of Smerch-100 story. Before finally everyone in design bureau back to the earth and made Zaslon.
The interpretation of "S-500" like should never be taken as literal. at least not in today's radar technology where we never really have ABM radar that can pick enemy ICBM with sub to 1 meter dimension. It can however have multiple target engagement capability, using hypersonic missile, or expanded types of target to hypersonic weapon.
Hole- Posts : 11122
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Read the quote again. F-15 like target. 3 to 5m² of RCS. Against ballistic missiles it would be more like 200km. Max.
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1459
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Hole wrote:Read the quote again. F-15 like target. 3 to 5m² of RCS. Against ballistic missiles it would be more like 200km. Max.
You dont get 1000 Km range vs fighter with just sub meter aperture of typical fighter radar.
How about reading some radar related books ?
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OAK handed over to the Ministry of Defense the groundwork for the project of a promising interceptor
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5691812news form 18th October.
According to the director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Ruslan Pukhov, in a difficult economic situation, it is necessary to conduct an audit of many defense programs.
MOSCOW, October 18. / Tass /. All materials on the creation of a promising long-range aviation intercept system to replace the MiG-31 were transferred to the Ministry of Defense. The chief designer, the vice-president of innovations of the United Aircraft Building Corporation (KLA) Sergey Korotkov informed the journalists about this.
"Now all the materials [on the PAK DP] have been submitted to the Ministry of Defense," said Korotkov, answering the question of at what stage are the works on the creation of a promising long-range aviation intercept system.
and today... is this true? (ok Rambler is antiRussian liberast media funded by zionist Nosik, so no need to read comments)
Suddenly, the portal Avia.pro, citing its source, reports that the Ministry of Defense has remained displeased with the documents submitted on the draft of the interceptor fighter. The source explains that the project is recognized as "raw", it does not sufficiently take into account the requirements imposed on the aircraft by the military. Another reason for doubting the quality of a promising aircraft is that the Russian Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation (RSK) MiG has been engaged in it for a quarter of a century. In this connection, it can not be considered promising.
Regarding the first cause of discontent, then there is nothing definite reported. The second reason is absolutely contrived. The fact is that RSK MiG conducts work on its own initiative with a huge break for a period of lack of money and devastation. So, the proposed draft design is quite “fresh”. If only because such qualities as stealth, record speed, and the presence of developed artificial intelligence in control systems a quarter of a century ago could hardly have been planned by management of the corporation.
https://news.rambler.ru/troops/41249099-mig-41-opustit-vozdushnuyu-razvedku-ssha-s-nebes-na-zemlyu/amp/
does it mean they really cleaned dust form blueprints of MiG-301/321?¬
Hole- Posts : 11122
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Think about a radar that concists of multiple arrays integrated into the skin of the plane. Is already considered (tested?). With this arrangement you get an antenna of 10m² or more.
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1459
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Hole wrote:Think about a radar that concists of multiple arrays integrated into the skin of the plane. Is already considered (tested?). With this arrangement you get an antenna of 10m² or more.
Think about beamsteering too ? How much area available so you can focus your beam and still get proper beamwidth. and heat distribution too, this array are bound to produce heat and it has to be removed. and as far as i see we have no real "smart skin" yet because of it.