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Libyan Crisis

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40596
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Post n°551

Re: Libyan Crisis

GarryB Thu May 14, 2020 9:45 am

You can't really tell much from one photo like that... is it being used on its own, or is it part of a battery... you can't even tell what it is defending... is that a road up to a military lookout position that overlooks the surrounding area, or is it a main road that goes through a military base checkpoint position and there are other vehicles on the other side defending the other direction...

With the vehicle placed there it should be able to see 360 degrees over the base position... which if it is located in the middle of nowhere does not justify a full Pantsir battery to protect it...

Isos

Isos: Posts : 11610
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Post n°552

Re: Libyan Crisis

Isos Thu May 14, 2020 9:55 am

There isn't that much deployed pantsirs in Lybia to protect each other.

Maybe there isn't many turkish UAVs also. But that doesn't explain why they carry 75% of missiles in war time.

ahmedfire

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Post n°553

Re: Libyan Crisis

ahmedfire Thu May 14, 2020 8:05 pm

Turkey is heavily depending on UAVs in Libya ,they have plenty of them there but Qatar is paying the cash . LNA has not only Pantsir , there are other systems that can shoot UAVs down.

GarryB

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Post n°554

Re: Libyan Crisis

GarryB Fri May 15, 2020 3:45 am

Rather small drones are difficult to spot at longer ranges let alone hit... I suspect if the primary threat is drones then they probably use cannon fire more than missiles...

The irony is that the vehicle itself is the expensive component... the missiles themselves are relatively cheap and could be fired off in large numbers without costing too much.

George1

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Post n°555

Re: Libyan Crisis

George1 Sun May 17, 2020 2:07 am

Turkey calls on NATO to once again intervene in Libya
By
News Desk -
2020-05-16 0

BEIRUT, LEBANON (7:20 P.M.) – Turkey issued a strong condemnation of the Libyan National Army (LNA) leader, Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, accusing him of intensifying attacks on civilians.

The statement also called on NATO to intervene in order to stop the Libyan National Army and its supporters, especially Egypt, the UAE and France.

“Haftar and his supporters have become more aggressive by launching attacks targeting civilians,” he said, considering that it was similar to what he described as “the Syrian regime’s aggression against its people.” .

“They are targeting civilians, including hospitals. Why this aggression?! Because they are beginning to lose their edge in the field,” the Foreign Ministry said.

They stressed that Turkey “believes that the only solution in Libya is the political one, and for that it seeks to achieve a ceasefire there.”

“In the next stage, Haftar must be stopped,” they continued. “Those supporting it must be stopped. NATO should play an important role in this regard.”

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cawushoglu said, “Egypt and the UAE, along with France, clearly support Haftar,” adding that “French hostility to Turkey has increased after the Peace Spring operation in northern Syria,” which was launched on October 9, 2019 against Kurdish forces, whom Ankara considers terrorists.

Turkey is the largest external supporter of the Libyan Government of National Accord (GNA), a political entity that is recognized by the United Nations.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/turkey-calls-on-nato-to-once-again-intervene-in-libya/

d_taddei2

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Post n°556

Re: Libyan Crisis

d_taddei2 Sun May 17, 2020 3:26 am

GarryB wrote:Rather small drones are difficult to spot at longer ranges let alone hit... I suspect if the primary threat is drones then they probably use cannon fire more than missiles...

The irony is that the vehicle itself is the expensive component... the missiles themselves are relatively cheap and could be fired off in large numbers without costing too much.

although figures are a bit sketchy the LNA are believed to have Sa-7, Sa-6, Sa-3, Sa-8. And although Libya did also have Sa-2, Sa-5, Sa-9, Sa-13, and Shilka before civil war so it very they have a few of these as well. And although Shilka shouldnt have issues taking down UAV's its the radar that plays the key part in finding them. Although for other systems using missiles not sure how well they take to taking out UAV's. Although it would be rather wasteful to use Sa-5, Sa-2, Sa-6 on UAV's.

Libya ideally needs SOSNA-R, or strelets with verba, another useful system provided radar is available is the upgrades for Zu-23-2, like ZOM1, ZOM2 etc, basically radar guided Zu-23-2 but can also add MANPADS or Strela-10 missiles to it. cheap air defence. Tunkuska also good systems. The Shilka with upgraded radar + MANPAD upgrades cheap and useful alternative. Would allow Libya to buy more and cover more areas.

whats ur views on these systems Garryb being able to take down UAV's?

George1

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Post n°557

Re: Libyan Crisis

George1 Sun May 17, 2020 10:25 pm

Another Turkish aircraft is shot down by Libyan Army forces near Tunisian border

BEIRUT, LEBANON (11:30 A.M.) – The Libyan army announced on Saturday that they shot down another Turkish aircraft in the vicinity of the strategic Al-Watiyah Airbase west of the capital, Tripoli, along the Tunisian border.

The Libyan Army’s “Military Information Division” said, “The Libyan Arab Armed Forces air defense platforms targeted an Anka-S Turkish drone, which is dubbed “the Phoenix” and it was shot down on the outskirts of the Uqba ibn Nafi Base – Al-Watiyah Airbase.”

The official spokesman for the Libyan Army , Major General Ahmed Al-Mesmari, said in an interview with Sputnik Arabic that the Turkish forces are on the ground in Libya and that many Turkish officers and soldiers were killed in the Libyan capital recently.

Meanwhile, Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar denied that there were deaths among the Turkish forces in Libya , and said that “the Turkish armed forces will continue to do what must be done in Libya, within the framework of supporting legitimacy.”

The Turkish Army is currently providing direct support to the Tripoli-based Government of National Accord (GNA), who is at war with the Libyan National Army.

Despite calls for a nationwide ceasefire by the United Nations, the war in Libya has continued to rage in northwestern part of the country, as the Turkish-backed forces rejected the proposal from the commander of the LNA, Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, to have a month-long ceasefire in order to observe Ramadan

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/another-turkish-aircraft-is-shot-down-by-libyan-army-forces-near-tunisian-border/

ahmedfire

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Post n°558

Re: Libyan Crisis

ahmedfire Sun May 17, 2020 11:10 pm

George1 wrote:

Another Turkish aircraft is shot down by Libyan Army forces near Tunisian border

BEIRUT, LEBANON (11:30 A.M.) – The Libyan army announced on Saturday that they shot down another Turkish aircraft in the vicinity of the strategic Al-Watiyah Airbase west of the capital, Tripoli, along the Tunisian border.

The Libyan Army’s “Military Information Division” said, “The Libyan Arab Armed Forces air defense platforms targeted an Anka-S Turkish drone, which is dubbed “the Phoenix” and it was shot down on the outskirts of the Uqba ibn Nafi Base – Al-Watiyah Airbase.”

The official spokesman for the Libyan Army , Major General Ahmed Al-Mesmari, said in an interview with Sputnik Arabic that the Turkish forces are on the ground in Libya and that many Turkish officers and soldiers were killed in the Libyan capital recently.

Meanwhile, Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar denied that there were deaths among the Turkish forces in Libya , and said that “the Turkish armed forces will continue to do what must be done in Libya, within the framework of supporting legitimacy.”

The Turkish Army is currently providing direct support to the Tripoli-based Government of National Accord (GNA), who is at war with the Libyan National Army.

Despite calls for a nationwide ceasefire by the United Nations, the war in Libya has continued to rage in northwestern part of the country, as the Turkish-backed forces rejected the proposal from the commander of the LNA, Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar, to have a month-long ceasefire in order to observe Ramadan

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/another-turkish-aircraft-is-shot-down-by-libyan-army-forces-near-tunisian-border/

GarryB

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Post n°559

Re: Libyan Crisis

GarryB Mon May 18, 2020 11:13 am

And although Shilka shouldnt have issues taking down UAV's its the radar that plays the key part in finding them.

An unupgraded Shilka would struggle taking down a drone.... the original models had problems against targets below about 60m altitude, but a drone has a fraction of the radar signature of a helicopter so it would be near impossible to get a lock... but as drones rarely fly at high speed I would think the optical sights on their own would make it a capable system for hitting drones... certainly a fraction of the cost of missiles...

Out to 2,000m they should be rather good at bringing down even the smallest drone as long as they can see them.

The problem for the SA-8 would be the same in the sense that the radar would not be able to track a very small drone even at very close range, though in optical mode you could probably get hits. It would depend on the model of missile as to whether the proximity fuse works or not so even in optical mode it is not for engaging tiny objects.... it is for engaging larger objects when the radar does not work.

The SA-9 and SA-13 would probably suffer because of the very poor IR signature of your average plastic drone with an electric motor... a jet powered drone or turboprop drone of medium size should be vulnerable but it would need to get close.

Honestly the best missiles for anti drone use are the command guided missiles like TOR and Pantsir, or the laser beam riding missiles like Pine (SOSNA-R) or Kornet, or missiles with sensitive IR seekers and proximity fuses like Igla-S or Verba.

Actually I think the best weapon they could use would be Krisantema... especially considering their enemy probably does not have much in the way of heavy armour...

New Sniper rifle scopes have built in laser range finders and ballistic computers so if you lase the target for distance it places a glowing aim point in the crosshair... move that point to the part of the animal you are shooting you want to hit and fire... something like that for a 57mm gun would be ideal...

Isos

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Post n°560

Re: Libyan Crisis

Isos Mon May 18, 2020 11:55 am

Shilka with a new thermal camera can achieve easy hits on drones. No need for radar. The low speed and bad manoeuvrability of the drone doesn't require any FCS.

But those turkish drones use missiles with greater range than shilka's guns.

The best answer would be to destroy them on the ground. With all the intel Aftar receive from Russian and French satelittes they know very well their air bases positions.

GNA has almost no air defences. LNA's mig-21 can do the job. And Egyptian mig-29 can use guided bombs from high altitude to be sure to hit the drones making everyone believe it was the mig-21 that bombed.

Isos

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Post n°561

Re: Libyan Crisis

Isos Mon May 18, 2020 12:22 pm

GNA captured an air base and at least one pantsir inside. Russia won't let US put their habds on it. Time to blow up the base with some of the su-34 in Syria.

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°562

Re: Libyan Crisis

magnumcromagnon Mon May 18, 2020 4:01 pm

Isos wrote:GNA captured an air base and at least one pantsir inside. Russia won't let US put their habds on it. Time to blow up the base with some of the su-34 in Syria.

The US has already had their hands on Pantsirs through the U.A.E., we also know that the U.A.E. was more than happy to supply RPG-32's to ISIS/ISIL in Yemen. Russia should reevaluate it's relationship with UAE, and the other GCC oil-banana republics....if their not openly waging war against Russian interests in the Middle East, they're doing other shit.

d_taddei2

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Post n°563

Re: Libyan Crisis

d_taddei2 Mon May 18, 2020 4:15 pm

It's seems Turkey has lost quite a few drones in last couple of months does anyone know the cost of these drones? Must be starting to cost Turkey some $ for all these losses

Thanks garryb for info. although i still think the shilka with upgrades + manpad upgrades of Igla-S or verba would still useful and cheap. a sort of a poorer version of tunkuska or pantsir. as u stated verba and igla-S would take out drones the guns just like tunkuska etc is a secondary weapon. And with Libya not having huge amounts of money to spend on AD equipment i think its a cheap alternative. and can still be used to attack ground targets if needed. strelets armed with Igla-S and verba also good system but lacks the gun. and as mention zu-23-2 with radar and manpad upgrades still able to attack drones, and 2-2.5km effective range still not bad for the cost and coud make a difference between losing troops or not.

And the mention of Turkish drones missiles range etc of course that's if they notice the shilka before shilka spots the drone.

If Turkey is going to increase drone attacks then haftar needs more air defence and cheap air defence. But agreed mig-21 with Intel should be targeting sites.

Bad news about the pantsir it's been a key asset for taking out Turkish drones. Haftar needs air and ground assistance Intel isn't enough now.

Isos

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Post n°564

Re: Libyan Crisis

Isos Mon May 18, 2020 4:46 pm

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Isos wrote:GNA captured an air base and at least one pantsir inside. Russia won't let US put their habds on it. Time to blow up the base with some of the su-34 in Syria.

]https://i.servimg.com/u/f71/19/35/56/92/eysgl510.jpg[/img]

The US has already had their hands on Pantsirs through the U.A.E., we also know that the U.A.E. was more than happy to supply RPG-32's to ISIS/ISIL in Yemen. Russia should reevaluate it's relationship with UAE, and the other GCC oil-banana republics....if their not openly waging war against Russian interests in the Middle East, they're doing other shit.

True. But that's the UAE pantsir, the very first version, which must be quite different and older than Russian pantsirs.

They will have to order more of them now.

ahmedfire

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Post n°565

Re: Libyan Crisis

ahmedfire Mon May 18, 2020 9:31 pm

Haftar did a mistake .

There is no need to go far on the west .he put the logistics roads in danger without securing it ,Libya is a big area .

He should Just concentrate his attacks from the east and south and keep the AD secured backside the forces .

GNA captured that air base without a fight .Haftar forces just left it .

Probably this Pantsir was hit while it was inside the shilter , GNA already released video yesterday .a Stupid officer just put it off inside there in a time the Turkish drones were flying !

This fuc*ing Egyptian leadership should directly interfere and clear all that bull shit .

ultimatewarrior

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Post n°566

Re: Libyan Crisis

ultimatewarrior Mon May 18, 2020 11:18 pm

A big shift in dynamics when Russia prevented SAA from taking M4 highway by force. The freezing of the conflict in Idlib allowed Turkey to concentrate all the power and shift thousands of Syrian terrorists to Libya where they try to take Cairo and reestablish Ottoman. Big mistake by Putin. The rebirth of Ottoman will cause problem for Russia. Of course, this is precisely what the Americans want.

ultimatewarrior

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Post n°567

Re: Libyan Crisis

ultimatewarrior Mon May 18, 2020 11:21 pm

d_taddei2 wrote:It's seems Turkey has lost quite a few drones in last couple of months does anyone know the cost of these drones? Must be starting to cost Turkey some $ for all these losses

Thanks garryb for info. although i still think the shilka with upgrades + manpad upgrades of Igla-S or verba would still useful and cheap. a sort of a poorer version of tunkuska or pantsir. as u stated verba and igla-S would take out drones the guns just like tunkuska etc is a secondary weapon. And with Libya not having huge amounts of money to spend on AD equipment i think its a cheap alternative. and can still be used to attack ground targets if needed. strelets armed with Igla-S and verba also good system but lacks the gun. and as mention zu-23-2 with radar and manpad upgrades still able to attack drones, and 2-2.5km effective range still not bad for the cost and coud make a difference between losing troops or not.

And the mention of Turkish drones missiles range etc of course that's if they notice the shilka before shilka spots the drone.

If Turkey is going to increase drone attacks then haftar needs more air defence and cheap air defence. But agreed mig-21 with Intel should be targeting sites.

Bad news about the pantsir it's been a key asset for taking out Turkish drones. Haftar needs air and ground assistance Intel isn't enough now.

Turkey is a dictatorship. Erdogan probably forces inmates to build TB2 drones. Bayrakthar is Erdogan's son-in-law. It's pure corruption.

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°568

Re: Libyan Crisis

magnumcromagnon Tue May 19, 2020 12:23 am

ultimatewarrior wrote:A big shift in dynamics when Russia prevented SAA from taking M4 highway by force. The freezing of the conflict in Idlib allowed Turkey to concentrate all the power and shift thousands of Syrian terrorists to Libya where they try to take Cairo and reestablish Ottoman. Big mistake by Putin. The rebirth of Ottoman will cause problem for Russia. Of course, this is precisely what the Americans want.

GNA ain't taking nothing in Egypt, if push come to shove Egypt could take the offensive from the East, while Algeria takes it on from the West, and just like the Turks can use the Bosporus and Dardanelles straights against opponents, the Egyptians could block all commercial and military use of the Suez canal for Turkey. Blocking Suez Canal access for the Turks means when the Turks wan't do any trade with Malaysian, Indonesian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, or the Muslim population of Indian vendors (covering something like 845 million people) they would need to completely shift their tanker trade in to a rail, which would force them to be reliant on Eurasian rail networks to get to those markets.

BTW a 10 day ban wasn't enough for you, a 10 year ban would of been better. They shouldn't throw you in jail, they should throw you underneath the jail. Razz

George1

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Post n°569

Re: Libyan Crisis

George1 Tue May 19, 2020 1:07 am

i dont see Haftar ending the job in the short term future. This conflict could go on for several years also.

Isos

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Post n°570

Re: Libyan Crisis

Isos Tue May 19, 2020 8:32 am

BTW a 10 day ban wasn't enough for you, a 10 year ban would of been better. They shouldn't throw you in jail, they should throw you underneath the jail. Razz

What he says is true.

Vann7

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Post n°571

Re: Libyan Crisis

Vann7 Tue May 19, 2020 11:10 am

there is no chance turkey or US can capture haftar zones completely.. you have the largest army in the middle
east egypt ,france and UAE fighting there in haftar side, so this is a war even more harder for turkey ,than the syrian one.. because in syria turkey face an significatly weakned army ,like syria and with a small russia airforce help.. but in lybia.. erdogan face ,the largest army in all middle east. egypt is a country with 100 million citizens
and is receiving support from france , UAE and probably saudi arabia too . in terms of weapons and intelligence
and supplies.. turkey have no power projection capabilities ,to over run lybia that is huge ,with egypt ,france and uae ,aiding haftar forces..

not even americans helping turkey to take control of lybia can make a major difference and help their muslim brotherhood terrorist to hold control back of lybia.. because they are already
over extended in many conflicts. and they know they can't defeat egypt in a ground war with russia and france backing egypt. this smell ,like another vietnam war.. for the nation ,that try to ago against egypt..and haftar..
will find a very powerful force there.. this is not like yemen ,that saudis are alone..

Egypt and syria are at war with the muslim brotherhood ,which is alqaeda front .. and even saudi arabia and uae and bahrain don't like the muslim brotherhood ,and will go against them. Only qatar and turkey and anglo powers support the muslin brotherhood..

JohninMK

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Post n°572

Re: Libyan Crisis

JohninMK Tue May 19, 2020 11:48 am

The now Turkish owned Pantsir on its way to a new, unknown, home.

Perfect for defending a S-400 Laughing

Libyan Crisis - Page 23 EYW6xlCXkAAj0Hb?format=jpg&name=360x360

Isos

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Post n°573

Re: Libyan Crisis

Isos Tue May 19, 2020 12:30 pm

JohninMK wrote:The now Turkish owned Pantsir on its way to a new, unknown, home.

Perfect for defending a S-400

[g]

It will never reach Turkey ... and with no missiles and spare parts they can't use them. It seems also that it was damaged.

George1

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Post n°574

Re: Libyan Crisis

George1 Tue May 19, 2020 12:34 pm

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Isos wrote:GNA captured an air base and at least one pantsir inside. Russia won't let US put their habds on it. Time to blow up the base with some of the su-34 in Syria.

The US has already had their hands on Pantsirs through the U.A.E.

Exactly. And in better condition

GarryB

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Post n°575

Re: Libyan Crisis

GarryB Tue May 19, 2020 2:02 pm

Shilka with a new thermal camera can achieve easy hits on drones. No need for radar. The low speed and bad manoeuvrability of the drone doesn't require any FCS.

Indeed, actually I think what would be ideal would be the EO targeting system for the Pine SAM system... no radar, but thermal night vision and digital video equipment and a laser beam riding missile.

The optronic system fitted to the Shilka would make it totally passive and allow targets well out side the range of the guns to be detected and engaged.

I think perhaps a twin barrel gun mount on a wheeled vehicle with that system of target detection could be a great seller around the world for countries wanting a relatively cheap and simple night and all weather capable system for dealing with drones.

Perhaps add a couple of HMGs for close in targets too...

But those turkish drones use missiles with greater range than shilka's guns.

The obvious solution would be to combine the Krisantema system with the Shilka perhaps and locate both systems a distance from the targets they are protecting perhaps?

GNA has almost no air defences. LNA's mig-21 can do the job. And Egyptian mig-29 can use guided bombs from high altitude to be sure to hit the drones making everyone believe it was the mig-21 that bombed.

Certainly the best option is to get them where they nest...

The rebirth of Ottoman will cause problem for Russia. Of course, this is precisely what the Americans want.

Why?

Russia has proven it can negotiate with Turkey and Israel when needed... if Turkey invades Syria and Iraq and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Israel and Lebanon he is going to have his work cut out I think...

Turkey is a dictatorship. Erdogan probably forces inmates to build TB2 drones. Bayrakthar is Erdogan's son-in-law. It's pure corruption.

Aren't all democracies dictatorships between elections?

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