"Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

Will the hermes have similar power to the maverick or will it be a just a 2 stage vikhr with the same puny warhead?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Will the hermes have similar power to the maverick or will it be a just a 2 stage vikhr with the same puny warhead?

Ok, I'll bite.

How is Vihr puny?
It can pen a tank can it not?

Hermes has nothing to do with Vihr anyways.

TR1 wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Will the hermes have similar power to the maverick or will it be a just a 2 stage vikhr with the same puny warhead?

Ok, I'll bite.

How is Vihr puny?
It can pen a tank can it not?

Hermes has nothing to do with Vihr anyways.

I think it cant penetrate the leopard 2A6 or leclerc from the front... Of course this is just my speculation

What is the chance it will hit the tank right in the front, where the strongest armor is?

Almost none. Even if the engagement happens to be head on, not @ an angle, the missile descend at an angle, not head on into the front array.

EDIT: I stated that like a retard.

What I meant was if the helicopter does NOT engage the tank from say behind, or a side angle, and it does happen to engage it from the frontal arc, the missile still descends on an angle, not parallel to the front armor array.

The Vikhr is not going to enter wide service anyway.

Suffice to say Vikhr-M has a flight range of 10km, but is a single stage missile with a 12kg dual purpose warhead for use against armour and aerial targets, and is reported to be capable of penetrating up to 1.2m of RHAe under ERA which sounds like plenty to me... more importantly it flys at 610m/s which makes it very fast and its beam riding guidance is difficult to defeat.

The Hermes has a multirole warhead weighing 30kgs which should be plenty for most ground targets.

The range for the air launched models is given as 20km and for ground launched 40km later expanded to 100km.

Flight speed of the two stage missile is a maximum of 1.3km/s.

It is important to remember that a tank that has on paper frontal armour that will stop something that can penetrate 1.2m of RHAe is not a smooth continuous surface offering the same protection from all directions and all angles.

Most such armour gets its effectiveness from being angled which increases the amount of armour that needs to be penetrated... in the same way that when walking straight across a road you walk the width of the road, yet if you walk both across the road and down the road at the same time... ie Jaywalk, you actually ending up walking further than the width of the road to get across.

The HERMES will follow a fairly ballistic path especially to long range targets so most of the time it will likely adopt a diving top attack flight profile from the ground launcher anyway, so the ability to penetrate more than 1.2m under ERA should kill anything it can reach.

The Hermes has a multirole warhead weighing 30kgs which should be plenty for most ground targets.

With cca 30 kg HEAT warhead, Hermes could penetrate far more than 1,2 m after ERA. Even Kornet-M or Khrizantema could penetrate more than 1,2 m after ERA with less than 10 kg HEAT warhead.

It is not a pure HEAT warhead, it is a multi purpose HEAT/HE FRAG warhead.

If it was a pure anti armour weapon it would probably have three warheads... a small calibre warhead near the nose the set off ERA, and then two full calibre HEAT charges behind it... the rear one firing first starting the penetration and then the front warhead firing and continuing the penetration the way the Hellfire does (though without the small precursor charge).

The problem is that the warhead is for a range of targets so it has a forward facing HEAT charge and most likely fragmentation material around the sides and rear of the charge plus two fuses. The fuse at the back will make it a HEAT charge that burns through armour but with fragments to the sides and rear. The front fuse results in just fragmentation in all directions.

With a diving trajectory 1.2m + is plenty with the advantage that it can be used against a wide range of softer targets including aircraft.

Even if HEAT warhead is only 15 kg and the rest in HE-frag, it could still penetrate more than 1,5 m or near 2 m. It could also be 1 big HEAT warhead, but with two different fuses, one to activate it as HEAT and one to activate it as HE, which one will be used, could be decided before missile launch.

You could be right... they might just be being conservative with their figures.

I rather expect they were given a set of parameters to meet... ie penetrate 1.2m of RHAe under ERA and also be able to destroy xyz.

It is rather likely the warhead is not set in stone and that in 5 years time they learn new tanks have armour rated to 2m or more that a revision of the warhead design could be applied to compensate.

The thing is that with terminal guidance and flight trajectory shaping the likelyhood that these missiles will come in at a steep angle is probably quite high. Coming in from a steep angle has several advantages, including avoiding bushes and tree branches and cables and power lines on the way to the target. Another advantage of attacking from a fairly steep angle is that even if you miss you will still land near the target and with a 30kg warhead you can still inflict damage. A horizontal shot that is 5cm too high might land hundreds of thousands of metres away, while a shot from a steep angle will hit the ground close to the target... that is why Hinds climb and then dive on their targets when firing rockets so even without direct hits the rockets will explode near the targets and still do damage. Against area targets like a group of trucks or infantry in the open this is very effective.

Have there been any live fire tests with this missile or are there still only 3D images yet?

So how do you think the second laser guidance system works?

Sorry, but I would interpret "a" second laser guidance system as being a single laser beam riding guidance system in addition to the existing radio command guidance system. I would not interpret it as having two laser guidance systems.

I dont have seen the ATAKAs on BMPT only the containers.

I think I have seen them fire missiles at the shooting ranges so I suspect they are not just models.

Maybe they have the same concept like they used on Hinds/havocs, an initial start via radio command and a following laser beam riding guidance, but now they maybe have an IR-homing seeker for initial start and the laser beam riding guidance as the main guidance for higher noise resistance?

AFAIK the Shturm and Ataka both use radio command guidance where they are launched forwards towards the target. The gunner places a crosshair onto the target and the computer tracks the position of the missile in its field of view using a gionometer which tracks a coded signal coming from the tail of the missile. The computer compares the location of the missile with the location of the centre of the crosshair and generates flight commands for the missile to fly it into line with the crosshairs. Those command signals are sent via the black round thimble on the Hind and the Havoc to the missile to command it to fly along the line to the target.

This guidance is used all the way to impact so as long as the crosshairs are kept on the target and the missile doesn't run out of range eventually the missile will hit the target.

This new improvement likely adds laser beam riding guidance, which simply means the launch platform directs a very very low powered laser at the target. The missile is launched and a sensor opens looking back at the launch platform. The laser is coded so the missile can detect its position within the beam and work out what sort of manouver it needs to perform to centre itself and hit the target.

Vikhr and Kornet already use this sort of guidance. Because the laser sensor is looking directly back at the laser emitter itself the laser can be much less powerful than one that is reflected off the target and back at the missile seeker.
The missile seeker is not looking at the target so DIRCMs wont work on it, and even if the target pops smoke this wont effect the guidance till the missile has entered enough smoke to make the laser difficult to see... by which time the missile might just be metres from the target so there is a good chance it might hit anyway.

Laser beam riding guidance is cheap and simple too and can be used to direct the missile at any target including hidden ones that wont show up on radar or IR.

Have there been any live fire tests with this missile or are there still only 3D images yet?

I am guessing you mean Hermes.

AFAIK it hasn't but I rather suspect they might have.

The missile is related to the SA-19 and SA-22 two stage missiles, so they are not designed from scratch.

It is suspected that Hermes saw some use in certain former USSR republic, with most spectacular results. Of course we'd have to wait few decades before such alleged use, if any, is declassified

There's a great deal of appeal of this kind of weapons for spec ops, remote outposts, defensive positions etc. You don't have to scramble CAS (which u may not even have) or wake up the howitzer company 20km away and hope they have enough shells (good for anti-personnel and light-armor, no use against tanks).

All you need is a lasing device and/or, for stationary targets, geo-locator/range meter.

Quick signal, they launch one from 80 km away. A minute later target goes kaboom. And they never see/hear anything coming. Big believer into these.

I think Swedes have something similar - but that one is bigger, much more expensive and is steered the whole way. Upside - it can be vertical-launched from a simple tube container. Say u're doing a spec-op insertion/convoy intercept. U helo-deliver a 20-tube container somewhere 10-15 km away from point of engagement and then spec-op unit takes over direct control of firing (encrypted etc). Build in some form of self-destruction capability if you're unable to retrieve it. (Still Chinese & Iranians will build a replica of it just a year later

Hermes is ballistic most of its way, needs to be aimed to arrive into proximity of the target and then it starts to steer at the target. Super fast, but does require physical aiming of the launch tube

If you are implying the rumors that Hermes was used in Ukraine, I am sorry to disappoint.

There is nothing credible whatsoever to indicate it has been used. Damn thing has not even been made yet.

Yes, like I said, these were just rumors . Many ppl kind of wish them to turn out to be true, me included.

Platform itself certainly has many merits. A small forward observation team can unleash a hail of very capable rockets with pinpoint accuracy - all at expense of carrying fairly small laser designator .

This missile if work as advertised will definitively become a game changer. It will be like Airforce precision bombing without planes. All done from the ground. But possibly could be moved to planes or boats. Imagine that missile destroying a tank 100km away with a top attack missile. that will be epic. Can't wait to see it in action..

Wow

ATRA "Hermes" can destroy a target at a distance of 100 kilometers

This was announced by Head of TASS complexes Tula JSC "Instrument Design Bureau" (KBP) Vladislav Sel'kin.

"The latest ATGM" Hermes "is being developed in two versions - informed Sel'kin. - The missile, developed to hit a target in sight, will allow destroy the target at a distance of 20 km, and modification - out of sight, at a distance of 100 km. "

According to him, allowed the use of ATRA "Hermes-A" on unmanned aerial vehicles with the necessary load-carrying capacity.

At the moment, anti-tank complex "Hermes" is equipped with semi-active homing (GOS), thereby pointing at the target horizon missile modification action is carried out by means of target illumination laser beam. "In the development of new types are independent of the GOS, for example, radar or infrared type with heat-seeking" - added Sel'kin.

They're using the same terminal stage, and added a larger booster stage.

What I don't understand, is that there's going to be an overlap in capability with other MLRS systems. What's the point in having multiple systems that do the same thing? HERMES-A is one hell of an ATGM, but compared to other MLRS, it's nothing special. Perhaps it would make a good export.

Zivo wrote:They're using the same terminal stage, and added a larger booster stage.

What I don't understand, is that there's going to be an overlap in capability with other MLRS systems. What's the point in having multiple systems that do the same thing? HERMES-A is one hell of an ATGM, but compared to other MLRS, it's nothing special. Perhaps it would make a good export.

Russia don't have lazer guided precision Artillery at 100km range.. the closest thing is
Krasnopol with 30km range ,fired from artillery.  Their smerch rocket artillery have a 90km
range ,but not sure about how its precision missiles works.. using drones or heat seeking..
fire and forget ? i think those are.. things that you have not complete full control of where you want it to hit exactly in the end ,the target is chosen in the end by the onboard sensors ,so less control .  Perhaps Hermes is more ideal against heavy armored tanks ,while smerch is more ideal against enemy soldiers ,enemy artillery or light armored targets without active defenses. That is precision area attacks. while Hermes is more ideal for highly armored targets..
Price is also a reason both exist.. definitively you cannot use Hermes missiles as artillery ,fire
thousands of them or your army will go bankrupt in a day ,since the missile have expensive warheads ,inertial guidance ,and semi-active lazer guidance sensors. so should be more expensive than any other artillery munition or anti tank weapon in Russia inventory.


Update..
After some gogle.. says hermes can target Low flying aircraft.. like hellicopers  Artillery can't do that. So Hermes is like a multipurpose anti armor missile with 100km range. It doesn't produce a massive area blast like rocket or regular artillery.. so is aimed and destroying single armored targets in ground or low-slow flying aircraft. it also could be adapted to boats. to target other boats.etc.

Zivo wrote:They're using the same terminal stage, and added a larger booster stage.

What I don't understand, is that there's going to be an overlap in capability with other MLRS systems. What's the point in having multiple systems that do the same thing? HERMES-A is one hell of an ATGM, but compared to other MLRS, it's nothing special. Perhaps it would make a good export.

The Hermes non-line of sight variant is a long-range guided missile - it has nothing in common with an MLRS. It's more like a cruise-missile - only more flexible and dynamic as well as lower-cost - it can receive new instructions in flight, change course, target and can no doubt be directed manually by an operator with TV-guidance or some variant. It can fly in through the window of a house where terrorists are hiding out with little collatoral damage, or fly low hugging the terrain and strike a command vehicle dozens of kilometres behind the front-line - that's on the move.

The closest analogue is the Israeli Spike-NLOS; with capabilties similar to the ones I laid out. Only the Hermes has far longer range, and no doubt better armour penetration.

• Designed to equip ground-based vehicles
  
  
• Can destroy ground and floating target at ranges up to 100km
  
  
• Capable of salvo fire
  
  
• Provides effective counterbattery fire
  

It doesn't produce a massive area blast like rocket or regular artillery

Hermes has a 30kg warhead, Krasnopol-m2's warhead is ~25kg . You wouldn't want to be anywhere near one when it hits.

It's more like a cruise-missile - only more flexible and dynamic as well as lower-cost - it can receive new instructions in flight, change course, target and can no doubt be directed manually by an operator with TV-guidance or some variant.

Valid point. It's a precision strike, without the costly delivery method. Hermes-A's terminal stage uses SALH for guidance. We don't know what the 100km version will use. It could be TV guided, image seeking, MMW seeking, SALH, GPS, all or any of the above.

or fly low hugging the terrain

Since it's based on the 57E6 missile, it'll probably boost as high and far as it can, than glide towards the target.

The direct fire 20km range models could fly fairly low like a cruise missile... but likely at a fairly high speed.

Remember this missile is related to the missile of Pantsir-S1 so very high initial acceleration and then glide to the target, though this missile might have some form of extra propulsion to maintain speed.

I suspect the 100km version will likely use a more powerful solid rocket booster and a ballistic path to the target area with lock on after launch capabilities.

the 20km range version will likely be much like the SA-22 missile of Pantsir-S1 and might lock onto the target after launch or before launch.

the KBP website describes initial guidance as being inertial with command guidance to allow a change in target, with terminal homing.

In the past the terminal homing options have been listed as laser beam riding, semi active laser homing (ie target spot homing), satellite guidance, radar guidance, or IIR guidance.

In this day and age with the miniaturisation and reduced costs of the various technologies combinations of these guidance methods become possible... with GLONASS guidance getting the missile within visual range where IIR/LLLTV or MMW radar sensors can be used for terminal guidance.

The terminal guidance will probably adopt MMW/IIR seeker maybe with TV guidance, because at such distances usually there is no plattform close enough to give any Laser Beam Riding terminal guidance, for that the launching plattform would need to fly above 2km altitude which is not wanted for attack helicopters, not only do they consume a lot of fuel when combat loaded at higher altitudes than 1000m, they also give a wider area from where enemy could engage it with MANPADs or SHORADs. The terminal guidance could become quite cost intensive with adoption of IIR/MMW guidance.

TR1 wrote:If you are implying the rumors that Hermes was used in Ukraine, I am sorry to disappoint.

There is nothing credible whatsoever to indicate it has been used. Damn thing has not even been made yet.

Tarasenko claims it's been tested over there and had a pic of remains of a very Pantsir like missile on his blog

Cyberspec wrote:

TR1 wrote:If you are implying the rumors that Hermes was used in Ukraine, I am sorry to disappoint.

There is nothing credible whatsoever to indicate it has been used. Damn thing has not even been made yet.

Tarasenko claims it's been tested over there and had a pic of remains of a very Pantsir like missile on his blog

It's probably BS. The image of the booster, assuming it's even from Ukraine, is likely from a Pantsir. Fortunately, Russia deployed a few of them to Novorussia.

The terminal guidance could become quite cost intensive with adoption of IIR/MMW guidance.

The Morfei is supposed to have an IIR seeker with lock on after launch capability and a datalink... wouldn't be that hard to get it to transmit what it sees back to the launch aircraft and let the gunner select the target... especially for the 20km range model.

Keep in mind that there is already a drone version of Pantsir... which might be very useful for target practise for a Pantsir battery, but it would also be useful to find and mark targets for a Hermes battery too.

Also with the booster... they are not that much different from the boosters used on Tunguska... in fact there is a family of standard boosters that are used for radio sounding rockets that look very similar to the boosters used by the whole SA-19 and SA-22 family of missiles. They are likely related if not actually the same.