https://en.topwar.ru/174800-novye-korvety-proekta-20380-poluchat-radiolokacionnyj-kompleks-zaslon.html
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Project 20380(5): Steregushchy Corvette #2
AJ-47- Posts : 205
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New corvettes of project 20380 will receive the Zaslon radar system
https://en.topwar.ru/174800-novye-korvety-proekta-20380-poluchat-radiolokacionnyj-kompleks-zaslon.html
https://en.topwar.ru/174800-novye-korvety-proekta-20380-poluchat-radiolokacionnyj-kompleks-zaslon.html
George1 and limb like this post
Hole- Posts : 11118
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Arrow- Posts : 3471
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The question is why they didn't just order 20385 corvettes? These ships are probably not much more expensive than the standard 20380. They carry UKSK launchers, so their firepower is incomparably greater than 20380. In addition, they can attack ice targets with Kalibr, Oniks, and Cirkon missiles. They are more universal. They only ordered two ships.
owais.usmani- Posts : 1825
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Arrow wrote:These ships are probably not much more expensive than the standard 20380.
Yes they are.
limb- Posts : 1550
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Not compared to the 20386, which is being built and doesn't even have an integral UKSK.owais.usmani wrote:Arrow wrote:These ships are probably not much more expensive than the standard 20380.
Yes they are.
GarryB- Posts : 40537
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Normal procedure is to test out all the things you might want to use them for and also thing you might not want to use them for but test anyway just in case.
These are modern corvettes, they are not the old Cold War single purpose anti ship missile attack or torpedo corvettes... these modern corvettes are fully multirole and have the equivalent electronics and communications set up to cold war Kirov cruisers.
Even when not fitted with UKSK systems they can still use the sensors and equipment of other ships near by to do things the Kirovs couldn't do... there was no way a Kirov could sit in the Caspian Sea... or any sea for that matter and launch a cruise missile attack against a land target 1,500km+ away with a conventional warhead.
Even their corvettes are complex multirole vessels and that means more tests... Russia is a big country so tests in one place at one time of the year is simply not good enough... they need to test them in the north and the west and the south and the east and they need to test them in winter and summer...
They know what jobs they need to be able to do and the different models will come with different prices... it is much cheaper to fill 8 Uran tubes than it is to fill 8 UKSK tubes.
I suspect they wont just go for one type because it is unlikely the different fleets will have exactly the same requirements and they certainly don't have the same conditions.
These are modern corvettes, they are not the old Cold War single purpose anti ship missile attack or torpedo corvettes... these modern corvettes are fully multirole and have the equivalent electronics and communications set up to cold war Kirov cruisers.
Even when not fitted with UKSK systems they can still use the sensors and equipment of other ships near by to do things the Kirovs couldn't do... there was no way a Kirov could sit in the Caspian Sea... or any sea for that matter and launch a cruise missile attack against a land target 1,500km+ away with a conventional warhead.
Even their corvettes are complex multirole vessels and that means more tests... Russia is a big country so tests in one place at one time of the year is simply not good enough... they need to test them in the north and the west and the south and the east and they need to test them in winter and summer...
They know what jobs they need to be able to do and the different models will come with different prices... it is much cheaper to fill 8 Uran tubes than it is to fill 8 UKSK tubes.
I suspect they wont just go for one type because it is unlikely the different fleets will have exactly the same requirements and they certainly don't have the same conditions.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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4 now.They only ordered two ships.
3 problems with 20385: 'too expensive', range/endurance & the engines.
1st is not really solved by these Zaslon equipped 20380s, that has to make these not much cheaper than 20385.
2nd is supposed to be fixed by 20386 but its being built super slow & cost is at least equal to 20385.
3rd is the big problem with 20385 since the domestic replacement leaves them underpowered.
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limb wrote:owais.usmani wrote:Yes they are.Arrow wrote:These ships are probably not much more expensive than the standard 20380.
Not compared to the 20386, which is being built and doesn't even have an integral UKSK.
20386 is testbed for new systems
Every single component is clean-sheet design
They currently aren't installing bigger weapons because literally everything else needs to be properly tested first
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Currently testing: welding bits of plain steel together very slowly.
Isos- Posts : 11601
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hoom wrote:Currently testing: welding bits of plain steel together very slowly.
Well that's kinda true. The navy is the navy and the shipyard is the shipyard.
Maybe they are testing new ways of construction that they can apply on other civilian projects.
The shipyard isn't interested by the weapons of the ship since they have nothing to do with it.
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hoom wrote:Currently testing: welding bits of plain steel together very slowly.
Wasn't there a big debate here over welding seams a couple of years ago
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franco wrote:hoom wrote:Currently testing: welding bits of plain steel together very slowly.
Wasn't there a big debate here over welding seams a couple of years ago
Yeah it was the favorite subject of Militarov IIRC. He was so upset aboug that that he left the forum.
George1- Posts : 18519
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More about the problem of the near sea zone corvette
The newspaper "Military Industrial Courier" published another critical article by Maxim Klimov "Common Sense in the Near Zone. The Problems of the Russian Corvette Must Be Solved Immediately", which states that the latest good news about the planned laying of new, badly needed corvettes for the Russian Navy should not be obscured acute problems of both the project 22380 (5) itself and equipping with modern ships in the near zone of the Navy. The main thing is that you need a lot of such ships and they should correspond to the tasks facing them as much as possible.
Deafness is treated
One of the main tasks is anti-submarine defense (ASW). Taking into account the zonal structure of the acoustic field, in the overwhelming majority of cases, to implement a search system in an area, an optimally distributed network of corresponding sensors and their carriers is needed. The most efficient sensor today is the Minotaur towed hydroacoustic station (BUGAS). That is, it is necessary, figuratively speaking, "minotaurization" of the near zone. At the same time, an absurd situation developed when there are two ships with Minotaurs in the Pacific Fleet today, and one in the Northern Fleet (the lead frigate of Project 22350), and all the other new buildings with Minotaurs ended up in Baltiysk, where they can be hit by the enemy in the very first minutes of the conflict by any means, including artillery.
Obviously, this situation needs to be urgently corrected, and here it is necessary not only to order new ships for the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet, but also to transfer already built ships from the Baltic. At the same time, everything that has already been built and planned for construction is extremely small. Again, the key parameter here is the ratio of the required control zone, search performance and zones of simultaneous reliable control of anti-submarine forces in a specific theater of operations. What the fleet has and what it plans to receive by 2027, obviously does not allow for the provision of a short range in anti-submarine warfare. There is a solution here - this is a massive small corvette for the protection of the water area (OVR), but their creation has been artificially slowed down for many years, including due to a scam with the so-called peace doves,
Targets of the near zone
The issue of financial constraints is acute, especially since the corvette must be multipurpose, which means it must have effective air defense and be able to solve strike missions.
It is worth starting with air defense, especially since today it has become a key problematic issue of this type of ships.
The constructed corvettes of the project 20380 (type "Guarding") have a number of serious problems with air defense, as a result of which their sinking is not difficult for a group of attack aircraft (and even a single aircraft) or an enemy missile boat. SAM "Redut", which has been brought up for a long time and, according to media reports, has finally started working, has extremely expensive missiles 9M96 and 9M100 with an active radar seeker. The problem is that the corvettes do not have radio correction of missiles, which means that the actively maneuvering target "Redoubt" is unable to hit. Moreover, even a standard salvo of the Harpoon anti-ship missile system the Redut air defense missile system misses with a high probability, since the target distribution of the anti-aircraft missile system against the salvo anti-ship missile system occurs randomly, and in this situation, the target's miss on board your ship is almost inevitable.
Reliability of the ship's short-range air defense can only be ensured with effective and all-weather control of the upper hemisphere and the identification of all air targets with a high probability of their destruction. At the same time, the frequency range of the main means of detection for corvettes - radar "Fourke" (range - 10 cm) is not optimal for work on inconspicuous low-flying targets, the accuracy of target designation for the use of missiles at "Fourke" leaves much to be desired. For this reason, a very good artillery radar "Puma" (3 cm), but with restrictions on the shooting sector and an increase in working hours, turned out to be the salvation for "Redut" on the corvette. The A-190 cannon with the Puma is very good, but the Puma is in fact occupied by the Redoubt,
At the same time, the solution to this complex of problems is quite possible - the Pozitiv-M radar operating in the three-centimeter range provides target designation of the missile defense system with the required accuracy, confidently working on low-flying targets. The only question is in the introduction of radio correction of missiles. In addition, it is highly advisable to replace the 9M100 missiles with the 9M338K with a much lower cost. And the question here is not only in the air defense of the ship - the 9M96 SAM is extremely important on the scale of the air defense of all the Armed Forces. 9M96 is needed in the maximum series (including to increase the transportable and ready-to-fight ammunition load of the S-400 air defense system), and each 9M100 SAM produced by the plant is not the 9M96 SAM, which is many times superior to the 9M100 in terms of "efficiency-cost".
It is necessary to emphasize the danger of betting on the use of a millimeter-wave radar (shooting radar of the Pantsir-M complex), with which the effectiveness of air defense ends when bad weather sets in. Aviation has learned to use such conditions long ago, it will fly in and sink our ships at a convenient moment. For "Pantsir-M" today, it is extremely important to switch from the meteorological millimeter range to at least a two-centimeter range of a firing radar.
Instead of all this, our Navy makes “a mistake worse than a crime” by equipping corvettes with the extremely expensive and “fashionable” integrated tower-mast complex (IBMK) “Zaslon”. At the moment, the cost of such an IBMK is close to the cost of the entire lead corvette of Project 20380, which is obviously beyond common sense. In addition, despite the repeated failure of the established deadlines, the head corvette with the IBMK Zaslon - Thundering "has not been able to shoot down a single air target until now. With a high probability, this will nevertheless happen, perhaps before the end of the year, because the huge funds spent need to somehow be reported, but already now we can confidently assert that the shooting from the IBMK will be conducted under extremely simplified conditions that have nothing to do with combat. And there is a justification for this, since our Navy simply does not have targets,
It turns out that today we are actually building ships that, in a real battle, will be easily drowned by enemy air attacks. The only exception is the Project 22350 frigate.
Based on the budget
Speaking about the strike capabilities of the near-zone ships, it should be noted that the Uran anti-ship missile system is quite enough for the corvette, but we do not have a light launcher for the highly needed Otvet anti-submarine missiles (ASM). Their use is possible today only from vertical launchers UKSK (universal shipborne firing complex) for Kalibr missiles. This solution has already been implemented in the modification of project 20380 - project 20385. Accordingly, only corvettes of project 20385 should be considered for further serial construction.
The thesis about the uselessness of the PLR due to the presence of an PLO helicopter on the corvette does not stand up to criticism. Our Ka-27M is an example of a quarter of a century outdated, extremely ineffective anti-submarine helicopter. It got to the point that in the process of the next modernization, the PLO helicopter lost its anti-submarine search and sighting system, which is simply not on the new Ka-27M. In this situation, only the PLR "Answer" enables our corvettes to be hunters in relation to enemy submarines, and not game.
Let's summarize briefly.
The massive construction of corvettes with the extremely expensive and still not providing the use of air defense weapons IBMK "Zaslon" will lead to the expenditure of huge budget funds on ineffective systems that do not meet the air defense requirements of corvettes, but for financial reasons exclude their mass construction.
It is necessary to modernize the project 22380 (5) in terms of the installation of the serial radar "Positive-M" and means of radio correction of missiles. Taking into account the need for anti-submarine missiles "Answer" and the extreme expediency of ensuring the possibility of using "Calibers" for a series of new corvettes, project 20385 with UKSK is needed (with its modification for "Positive-M" and radio correction of missiles).
The laying of new corvettes of project 20380 (5) does not solve the problem of the near zone; a mass series of small corvette for the protection of the water area is needed. And something needs to be done with our naval aviation. First of all, a full and modern modernization of the Ka-27M helicopter is needed, and not what we received today. However, this is a topic for a separate conversation.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4144220.html
Begome- Posts : 158
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Like a lot of stuff from that site I think it's quite unreasonably pessimistic...first of all, the bad ability of the Furke radar is stated like a fact but not really explained (I'm still a newb, but maybe someone can tell me why it's supposed to be so terrible...that it's not the best targeting radar is clear, but that's not its primary function and the Redut missiles have their own seekers); second, that the ship would "highly likely" () be destroyed by a salvo of Harpoons also seems to rely on quite a bit of speculation, mainly derived from the at best rather exaggerated assertion that the Furke is useless and seemingly some ideas about the Harpoon being capable of swarming attacks...now, again, I'm just a newb but it was my understanding that the Harpoons typically in use with most NATO ships can't actually do that; some other missiles, like the RBS-15 can (at least in newer versions) but those are not often used AFAIK. And this is just a 2k ton corvette, not an air defense frigate or destroyer...as to the Zaslon: IMO this is added mostly to allow more reliable shoot-downs of stealth targets, future (better) AShM and to enable targeting further out to make full use of the capabilities of Redut.
The only thing I might agree with is that if the Zaslon really does jack up the price as much as he says (which is probably again an exaggeration) then ordering more 20385 instead of modified 20380 would indeed make sense since they have UKSK and more Redut.
The only thing I might agree with is that if the Zaslon really does jack up the price as much as he says (which is probably again an exaggeration) then ordering more 20385 instead of modified 20380 would indeed make sense since they have UKSK and more Redut.
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LMFS- Posts : 5161
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He says the Furke is not accurate enough against low RCS sea skimming targets. I don't have an opinion on that, but it is true that radars against low flying targets are preferred in X the band.
As to saying the 20380 have no radio channels for guiding the SAMs... if this is true then someone needs to be sent to Siberia. It makes not sense to place the Redut system on board and not being able to assign a target to each of the missiles but to let them capture them on their own. Somehow I think either I did not understand or he is not right.
Regarding the 9M100: the missile is important and much better than radio commanded ones since its IR seeker allows it to be autonomous and hence not limit the amount of intercepted targets, radio command has this very important limitation since a reduced number of guidance channels can operate simultaneously and such systems can be overwhelmed easily.
As to saying the 20380 have no radio channels for guiding the SAMs... if this is true then someone needs to be sent to Siberia. It makes not sense to place the Redut system on board and not being able to assign a target to each of the missiles but to let them capture them on their own. Somehow I think either I did not understand or he is not right.
Regarding the 9M100: the missile is important and much better than radio commanded ones since its IR seeker allows it to be autonomous and hence not limit the amount of intercepted targets, radio command has this very important limitation since a reduced number of guidance channels can operate simultaneously and such systems can be overwhelmed easily.
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Klimov is a bit of a hopeless pessimist but on this one he actually has a bunch of points I agree with.
Russia desperately needs a bunch of hulls with good ASW capabilities to replace old Soviet ships especially the Grishas.
20380 was supposed to be that replacement to the Grishas, bigger with better sea-keeping/endurance & a chopper but still relatively cheap while slipping in some additional anti-ship & AA capabilities.
They still need to build a bunch of modern ASW ships.
Furke is definitely underpowered for 9M96, from recollection its 1m^2 RCS detection range is less than the range of the shorter range 9M96.
And yes, there is no director.
The failures that delayed proper joining service were because of that reliance on a weak radar setting intercept point -> the seeker head failing to find a target when it gets there.
There were attempts to use the Puma gun director to try to direct the missiles but apparently not particularly successful (there was talk of too much latency), not entirely clear whether they got it to work properly or they just gave up trying to make it work.
Zaslon apparently has director capability built in to the AESA (also for the gun) -> can be expected to properly control missiles.
I previously suggested a roll-back to the style of the first 20380 which had Kashtan but with Pantsir-M & associated mast.
That'd give 32 missiles with 20km range but it might not be all that much cheaper since Pantsir-M is apparently pretty expensive.
Russia desperately needs a bunch of hulls with good ASW capabilities to replace old Soviet ships especially the Grishas.
20380 was supposed to be that replacement to the Grishas, bigger with better sea-keeping/endurance & a chopper but still relatively cheap while slipping in some additional anti-ship & AA capabilities.
They still need to build a bunch of modern ASW ships.
Furke is definitely underpowered for 9M96, from recollection its 1m^2 RCS detection range is less than the range of the shorter range 9M96.
And yes, there is no director.
The failures that delayed proper joining service were because of that reliance on a weak radar setting intercept point -> the seeker head failing to find a target when it gets there.
There were attempts to use the Puma gun director to try to direct the missiles but apparently not particularly successful (there was talk of too much latency), not entirely clear whether they got it to work properly or they just gave up trying to make it work.
Zaslon apparently has director capability built in to the AESA (also for the gun) -> can be expected to properly control missiles.
I previously suggested a roll-back to the style of the first 20380 which had Kashtan but with Pantsir-M & associated mast.
That'd give 32 missiles with 20km range but it might not be all that much cheaper since Pantsir-M is apparently pretty expensive.
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GarryB- Posts : 40537
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It is not the first time that I have seen the 9M100 missile as being referred to as an ARH missile... perhaps there are IIR and ARH versions?
Certainly with AESA radars the only way to make them cheaper is mass production and the only way to get better ones is experience and practise producing existing ones...
Bad weather is an issue for MMW radar, but I suspect the Pantsir systems they end up getting will have both MMW and CM Wave radar like the Kashtan did.
TOR is mentioned because command guided missiles are cheap and the current ones are even more accurate too....
Most of their SAMs are based on land based weapons, but sometimes that doesn't translate... I would think laser beam riding missiles like SOSNA-R might struggle in some meteorological conditions at sea like fog or heavy rain...
Certainly has the "sky is falling tone" to it...
The Pantsir system is not cheap... it has very advanced all weather optics and sophisticated radar equipment, but the actual missiles themselves are cheap command guided weapons of rather useful precision... With the solid rocket booster probably not as cheap as TOR but certainly much better than any missile with a terminal seeker in it...
Certainly with AESA radars the only way to make them cheaper is mass production and the only way to get better ones is experience and practise producing existing ones...
Bad weather is an issue for MMW radar, but I suspect the Pantsir systems they end up getting will have both MMW and CM Wave radar like the Kashtan did.
TOR is mentioned because command guided missiles are cheap and the current ones are even more accurate too....
Most of their SAMs are based on land based weapons, but sometimes that doesn't translate... I would think laser beam riding missiles like SOSNA-R might struggle in some meteorological conditions at sea like fog or heavy rain...
Certainly has the "sky is falling tone" to it...
That'd give 32 missiles with 20km range but it might not be all that much cheaper since Pantsir-M is apparently pretty expensive.
The Pantsir system is not cheap... it has very advanced all weather optics and sophisticated radar equipment, but the actual missiles themselves are cheap command guided weapons of rather useful precision... With the solid rocket booster probably not as cheap as TOR but certainly much better than any missile with a terminal seeker in it...
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Corvette "Hero of the Russian Federation Aldar Tsydenzhapov" went to sea
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walle83 wrote:Havnt kept up, why is the mast so different from earlier ships? Looks less modern really.
New upgraded integrated mast
Does the job of both old mast and antenna that used to be above helicopter hangar
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Its the same Zaslon suite as 20385 with new X & S band AESA + L, C, & Ku Passive/EW stuffHavnt kept up, why is the mast so different from earlier ships? Looks less modern really.
But with same 12* Redut in the bow + Uran Anti ship missiles as earlier 20380 instead of the 20385 8* UKSK + 16* Redut aft of the hangar.
Different shaped mast vs 20385 is apparently because 20385 adjusted the internal structure while this uses same structure as 20380 to support the new mast.
On one hand if it all works this gives much better Radar/EW ability than earlier 20380.
On the other hand they went back to '20380' supposedly because of high cost for 20385 approaching cost of 11356 but this new '20380' loses 25% of the Redut cells & only has Uran instead of UKSK for Kalibr/Onyx/Zirkon -> significantly lower capability for close to same price as 20385 because the biggest cost is likely to be the Zaslon suite.
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hoom wrote:but this new '20380' loses 25% of the Redut cells & only has Uran instead of UKSK for Kalibr/Onyx/Zirkon -> significantly lower capability for close to same price as 20385 because the biggest cost is likely to be the Zaslon suite.
Hmmm... that's a strange way to describe a major upgrade to the 20380 sensor suite. Criticizing it because it doesn't deliver as much as a significantly more expensive 20385?
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My complaint isn't the sensors its that the sensors are going to be a big part of the cost -> won't be much cheaper than 20385 which was 'too expensive' but lacks in firepower relative to 20385.
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