RuAF Su-24 jammed AEGIS system of USS Donald Cook in Black sea

GarryB wrote:The AEGIS system dates back to the 1980s and is probably written in ADA.

To cover the screens in false targets... so snow the radar suggests jamming... the suggestion that the screens shut down and would not start up again suggests Hacking... very much what the Israelies did to Syria and lots of other countries likely do too.

I suspect you don't believe it because it sounds too good to be true... Mr the Sky is falling...

so garry you saying you u don't believe the story? I am on the fence, it would be nice if it was true, but a USA Aegis cruiser being jammed for an hour by a EW SU-24 sounds pretty hard to believe.

d_taddei2 wrote:hi i was wondering what peoples view was on this story? true or BS? its been on various websites and news channel

http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Protection-Systems/Khibiny_a002981001.aspx

Description: The Russian Air Force Khibiny is an advanced aircraft-mounted electronic warfare (EW) system capable of jamming state-of-the-art air defense radar systems. The Khibiny jamming was tested successfully for some time on the ground in Buryatia, Russian Federation. On April 17, 2014, two Russian Air Force Su-24 bombers with no weapons loaded were sent to intercept the US Navy's AEGIS-equipped destroyer USS Donald Cook in the Black Sea. One of them flied around the destroyer up to 12 times while the other one remained away as done usually by both sides during the Cold War period. Unconfirmed reports suggest that the Su-24s were equipped with the Khibiny EW system and were able to neutralize the AEGIS phased array radar target tracking capabilities while the ship's crew was unable to re-boot the system. It is not clear whether the jammer affected the radar system itself or only the computer-based component or either both at the same time. The Russian Air Force plans call for the installation of the Khibiny jammer on all its advanced jets.

i transfer it in the thread above that Airbornewolf mentioned

GarryB wrote:

so garry you saying you u don't believe the story? I am on the fence, it would be nice if it was true, but a USA Aegis cruiser being jammed for an hour by a EW SU-24 sounds pretty hard to believe.

Well I don't know for sure, but I remember when an AEGIS class cruiser shot down an Iranian Airbus from Iranian waters... the captain acted very aggressively and with a lot of confidence.

there was a TV crew on board when the incident took place and when it came time to fire at what they thought was a threat there was a problem with their Standard SAM so there was a delay of 90 seconds between when they wanted to launch and when they could actually launch the weapon that shot down the unarmed civilian aircraft... had it been a Su-30MKI with a Brahmos they would all be dead... their only other defence was Phalanx, which is ineffective against supersonic sea skimmers... which is why SEA RAM was developed.

At the time if you had asked anyone they would have said it was invincible with super electronics that can identify aircraft by counting the turbine blades on their engines and other such nonsense... and of course the Soviets didn't have any supersonic sea skimming missiles then either... which of course they did.

I think it is possible they might have some capability against AEGIS.... like I said it might be a hacking program... jamming doesn't make your screen shut down.

Actually the hacking scenario isn't all too far-fetched, even military analysts within the Pentagon have admitted and criticized both the Littoral Combat Ships and the F-35 program, stating that they could be defeated by hacking, and the LCS ships have much newer and improved electronics compared to the aging AEGIS fleet:

The Navy’s newest combat ship could be hacked at any moment

GarryB wrote:

I think it is possible they might have some capability against AEGIS.... like I said it might be a hacking program... jamming doesn't make your screen shut down.

Hacking is not a bad word.. but it can be misleading .. because is real use is for computers..  and what happens
here according to the forums posters in Veterans Today is something much more bizarre that will work regardless
is a computer or just a refrigerator in your house..   using quantum physics.. that deals with the motions of things
at the nanoscopic level.. ie.. electrons and atoms.. or radio waves that any radar needs to use to track any plane..

The way i see it is similar to the effect that powerful sound systems in cars with low bass ,can do in the environment or other peoples cars near.. but but also vibration in your body too.. i forgot the name ..but i think is resonance the name .. and that effect is completely possible at all levels of matter.. not only in solids.. but also on radiowaves and energy fields and magnetic fields that drives electronics systems. All said.. It looks it could be
that Russian scientist found a way to interrupt electronics (shutting down systems) and radio communications aegis not locking.. etc.    

Or it could be similar to someone throwing a rock into a quiet lake.. and the waves are the communications of the aegis.. then someone throws a grenade.. quickly after.. so the entire lake turns into a storm of erratic waves. Effectively interrupting the original signals pattern. THis is a quite interesting science , with lots of possibilities.
In this case Not only radiocommunications of aegis were interrupted.. but anything using electronics too so if this is true.. indeed is a major breakthrough counter electronics systems. And really embarrassing for US if it was true.

Wow, this explains the strong protest...

The State Department acknowledged that the crew of the destroyer USS Donald Cook has been gravely demoralized ever since their vessel was flown over in the Black Sea by a Russian Sukhoi-24 (Su-24) fighter jet which carried neither bombs nor missiles but only an electronic warfare device.

On 10 April 2014, the USS Donald Cook entered the waters of the Black Sea and on 12 April a Russian Su-24 tactical bomber flew over the vessel triggering an incident that, according to several media reports, completely demoralized its crew, so much so that the Pentagon issued a protest [1].

The USS Donald Cook (DDG-75) is a 4th generation guided missile destroyer whose key weapons are Tomahawk cruise missiles with a range of up to 2,500 kilometers, and capable of carrying nuclear explosives. This ship carries 56 Tomahawk missiles in standard mode, and 96 missiles in attack mode.

The US destroyer is equipped with the most recent Aegis Combat System. It is an integrated naval weapons systems which can link together the missile defense systems of all vessels embedded within the same network, so as to ensure the detection, tracking and destruction of hundreds of targets at the same time. In addition, the USS Donald Cook is equipped with 4 large radars, whose power is comparable to that of several stations. For protection, it carries more than fifty anti-aircraft missiles of various types.

Meanwhile, the Russian Su-24 that buzzed the USS Donald Cook carried neither bombs nor missiles but only a basket mounted under the fuselage, which, according to the Russian newspaper Rossiyskaya Gazeta [2], contained a Russian electronic warfare device called Khibiny.

As the Russian jet approached the US vessel, the electronic device disabled all radars, control circuits, systems, information transmission, etc. on board the US destroyer. In other words, the all-powerful Aegis system, now hooked up - or about to be - with the defense systems installed on NATO’s most modern ships was shut down, as turning off the TV set with the remote control.

The Russian Su-24 then simulated a missile attack against the USS Donald Cook, which was left literally deaf and blind. As if carrying out a training exercise, the Russian aircraft - unarmed - repeated the same maneuver 12 times before flying away.

After that, the 4th generation destroyer immediately set sail towards a port in Romania.

Since that incident, which the Atlanticist media have carefully covered up despite the widespread reactions sparked among defense industry experts, no US ship has ever approached Russian territorial waters again.

According to some specialized media, 27 sailors from the USS Donald Cook requested to be relieved from active service.

Vladimir Balybine - director of the research center on electronic warfare and the evaluation of so-called "visibility reduction" techniques attached to the Russian Air Force Academy - made the following comment:


"The more a radio-electronic system is complex, the easier it is to disable it through the use of electronic warfare."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1Wwo2Ygjjqw

Can no one asses my response ?

max steel wrote:This incident is certainly not fake yes I agree certain claims were made by russian media were exaggerated to create a doubt in minds of others .

correct me If I'm wrong but what i think it happened due to : CROSS EYE JAMMING . I KNOW IT'S AN OLD HAT .


Its simple; phased array antennas such as use on the spy-1 S-band radar system are easily jamable when confronted with a two point jamming signal that is out of phase and widely spaced. It usually uses two jamming antennas spaced about 35 feet apart mounted on the wing tips of the jet.

See the attached Chinese paper on cross eye jamming and how it works : https://www.scribd.com/doc/246893221/Cross-Eye-Jamming

The Iranians use this on there F-5 jets by mounting jamming pods on the wing tips where the missiles usually go. This is a known problem with any phased array radar antenna system. Such as now being used on the f-22 and the f-35 and the B-2. The same trick is used to jam conical scan radar systems too.

The Achilles heal of the AEGIS cruisers is the fact that it has no good old fashion ppi scan radar antenna to fall back on. Only the X-band Phalanx system can be used as a back up. They will have to retrofit all of the AEGIS cruisers with an auxiliary mast mounted radar antenna with mechanical ppi scan to fix the problem.

This is why the Russians know that stealth is a waste of time. Cross eye jamming is cheaper and it works better. Also the Patriot missile system is in danger to this type of jamming.

As far as I know, PESA and AESA radars can be jammed. Any radar can be jammed and all 'stealth' can be detected, given that you are using a newer version of the radar (in terms of wavelength/ Frequency). People have said it was carried out by mimicking NATO IFF signature, or due to a redundancy in the current Battlefield Information system that NATO deploys.

You can use a PPI scan radar as a redundancy, or a X-band or any radar for that matter, if the aircraft really copied the IFF then all of this will fail the same way the AEGIS did. Thats not even up for debate.

If we are assuming that didnt happen, then sure AESA has its flaws, but other synthetic aperture RADARs lack a lot of functionality compared to the AESA.

tl;dr; its more of a IFF mimic attack than any actually 'jamming' operation because given the number of systems there are on a ship like that, it would take an aircraft a lot of different modules to make them go 'dark' like that,. plus many of them are pulse modulated, frequency jumping, i mean the list is endless. Just think like this, for every on board system you need one module. The Su 24 didnt carry those many pods.

Thats my 20 cents.

max steel wrote:I retract my statement. It didn't happen.

For a number of both tactical and technical reasons. ECM and ECCM to a very large extent is the function of the electric energy capacity of the carrier(s) of these systems Any Arleigh Burke class DDG is simply on the order of magnitude more electrically powerful than SU-24. It's SPY-1D will be able to "burn through", albeit at a much shorter range (which is important, of course) through anything that SU-24 can throw at it. today, it is not just jamming, it is electronic deception which matters. Plus, why would Russia expose her own ECM capabilities directly? The whole story is mostly a figment of imagination of some overly zealous Russian fanboys (yes, they do exists and in vast numbers) and, ever so "competent", journalists. Reality of the event was, most likely, very prosaic.

Maybe max, but we have to also look at the opposite end of the spectrum, that this news was intentional spread by western media to gather public support for future spending on upgrades or perhaps full replacements for these American vessels, we shouldn't forget that the defence industry has powerful friends in corporate media.

AlfaT8 wrote:

max steel wrote:I retract my statement. It didn't happen.

For a number of both tactical and technical reasons. ECM and ECCM to a very large extent is the function of the electric energy capacity of the carrier(s) of these systems Any Arleigh Burke class DDG is simply on the order of magnitude more electrically powerful than SU-24. It's SPY-1D will be able to "burn through", albeit at a much shorter range (which is important, of course) through anything that SU-24 can throw at it. today, it is not just jamming, it is electronic deception which matters. Plus, why would Russia expose her own ECM capabilities directly? The whole story is mostly a figment of imagination of some overly zealous Russian fanboys (yes, they do exists and in vast numbers) and, ever so "competent", journalists. Reality of the event was, most likely, very prosaic.

Maybe max, but we have to also look at the opposite end of the spectrum, that this news was intentional spread by western media to gather public support for future spending on upgrades or perhaps full replacements for these American vessels, we shouldn't forget that the defence industry has powerful friends in corporate media.

I tend to agree, nothing like a bit of publicity like this to boost the case for the next upgrade, especially amongst those who know little but have power.

Also note that the USS Donald Cook, the ship involved, was back in the Black Sea 4 months later as if nothing had happened.

"Two Russian warplanes flew simulated attack passes near a U.S. guided missile destroyer in the Baltic Sea on Tuesday, the U.S. military said, with one official describing them as one of the most aggressive interactions in recent memory.

The repeated flights by the Sukhoi SU-24 warplanes, which also flew near the ship a day earlier, were so close they created wake in the water, with 11 passes, the official said. The planes carried no visible weaponry, the official said on Wednesday.

A Russian KA-27 Helix helicopter also made seven passes around the USS Donald Cook, taking pictures. The nearest Russian territory was about 70 nautical miles away in its enclave of Kaliningrad, which sits between Lithuania and Poland.

"They tried to raise them (the Russian aircraft) on the radio but they did not answer," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity, adding the U.S. ship was in international waters.

The U.S. military on Wednesday released photos and videos of the incidents. In one photograph, an SU-24 appears to pass at extremely low altitude over the Donald Cook's bow.

The events were reminiscent of the Cold War, when a series of close calls led to a bilateral agreement aimed at avoiding dangerous interactions at sea that was signed in 1972 by then-Secretary of the Navy John Warner and Soviet Admiral Sergei Gorshkov.

The agreement prohibited "simulated attacks against aircraft or ships, performing aerobatics over ships, or dropping hazardous objects near them." The accord can be seen here: www.state.gov/t/isn/4791.htm. White House spokesman Josh Earnest said, "This incident ... is entirely inconsistent with the professional norms of militaries operating in proximity to each other in international water and international airspace."

Another incident

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-simulatedattack-idUSKCN0XA1UW

JohninMK wrote:

AlfaT8 wrote:

max steel wrote:I retract my statement. It didn't happen.

For a number of both tactical and technical reasons. ECM and ECCM to a very large extent is the function of the electric energy capacity of the carrier(s) of these systems Any Arleigh Burke class DDG is simply on the order of magnitude more electrically powerful than SU-24. It's SPY-1D will be able to "burn through", albeit at a much shorter range (which is important, of course) through anything that SU-24 can throw at it. today, it is not just jamming, it is electronic deception which matters. Plus, why would Russia expose her own ECM capabilities directly? The whole story is mostly a figment of imagination of some overly zealous Russian fanboys (yes, they do exists and in vast numbers) and, ever so "competent", journalists. Reality of the event was, most likely, very prosaic.

Maybe max, but we have to also look at the opposite end of the spectrum, that this news was intentional spread by western media to gather public support for future spending on upgrades or perhaps full replacements for these American vessels, we shouldn't forget that the defence industry has powerful friends in corporate media.

I tend to agree, nothing like a bit of publicity like this to boost the case for the next upgrade, especially amongst those who know little but have power.

Also note that the USS Donald Cook, the ship involved, was back in the Black Sea 4 months later as if nothing had happened.

So now its in the Baltic the Su-24s just had to say 'Hello' again. Hope it doesn't feel picked on

Does anyone have expert knowledge of how this sort of jamming/EW work might happen?
(Just don't get sacked and spill any secrets if you work for KRET etc!)

There's plenty of examples of a weak radio/EM type signal fucking up a larger one. Put simply, its easier to fuck something up than to monitor something. Likewise in jamming, a low energy source CAN fuck up the high energy radar system, but only over a small area. Its not really like two people shouting against each other to be heard. Because the jammer is acting with constructive/destructive wave interefence., you don't need huge energy, IMO, for radar interference.

Additionally, what is going on? Is it just counter radar? Lasers can also be used to fuck radar. And the biggies are directed energy and EM pulses.

The USA used EW against Iraqi troops in Gulf War 2 - it utterly demoralised them. Its not some weird, paranormal type thing. Its completely real. There would be nothing to stop Russia using it vs the USS Donald Duck.

My view is that America's ultra high tech is fine vs Afghanistan and co. But not good vs a modern rival. Generally speaking hi tech systems tend to nullify eg a nuke exchange of Russia vs USA.

it is not just somewhere in Baltics, but in proximity of a Russian port, Kaliningrad, that US ship and Polish helicopter are conducting their military exercises. And then they call it " provocative" Russian behavior. It is really mind- boggling -- this persistent search for trouble.

Kerry: Shooting down Russia jets 'would have been justified'

Is the anti-Vietnam-war protester, John Kerry, declaring war on Russia? Or this is just bluster in the manner of some idiotic Republicans who wanted to punch Putin in the face?
Got it. Kerry is expressing his Erdogan-envy. The ruler who can kill his population, help ISIS terrorists, manipulate Europe, threaten free speech all over the world, harass Russia with impunity by shooting its pilots. What a great model for emulation.

max steel wrote: it is not just somewhere in Baltics, but in proximity of a Russian port, Kaliningrad, that US ship and Polish helicopter are conducting their military exercises. And then they call it " provocative" Russian behavior. It is really mind- boggling -- this persistent search for trouble.

Kerry: Shooting down Russia jets 'would have been justified'

Is the anti-Vietnam-war protester, John Kerry, declaring war on Russia? Or this is just bluster in the manner of some idiotic Republicans who wanted to punch Putin in the face?
Got it. Kerry is expressing his Erdogan-envy. The ruler who can kill his population, help ISIS terrorists, manipulate Europe, threaten free speech all over the world, harass Russia with impunity by shooting its pilots. What a great model for emulation.

...And sinking the Donald Cooke with Onyx would of been equally justified, according to the horse-faced John Kerry, the walking, talking, epitome of mediocrity.

Here comes a fuller 'explanation' of the incident, along the lines of the comments above. This is an extract, the whole thing at link

By the time the Donald Cook docked at Klaipeda, its captain, Commander Charles Hampton, had cleared with the Pentagon this statement: “The objection of the United States is not about fear but about safe and professional behaviour between international militaries in international airspace and international waters. The US Navy will continue to operate forward with allies and in doing so we will not cede space. As you have seen in the media, the flybys were very low, very fast – and were inconsistent with the normal operations of international militaries in international waters and in international airspace.”

The press did not ask Hampton to clarify what his vessel and the Polish units had been doing “operating forward”, and how their operation was “consistent with the normal operations of international militaries.”

The Polish state media and Polish political and military sources have answered some of these questions. In this report Polish Radio counted the number of Russian sorties flown over the Cook on April 11-12. The radio also reported that “because of the actions of the Russians” the Polish helicopter operation had been “cancelled”. In other Polish media, the Defence Ministry cover story for the operation was exposed. The four Polish Navy helicopters have so far practised a total of 3,600 landings and takeoffs on and from Polish Navy craft over the past decade.

Onboard US Navy photographs of the Polish Seasprite reveals it was operating a special piece of equipment. As the photographs below indicate, this is a device which can be dropped by the helicopter into the water and towed.

1800_4 Seasprite helicopter of Polish Navy lands on deck of USS Cook on April 11; right, close-up of anti-submarine detection device

Its technical name is a towed magnetic anomaly detector. Combined with onboard radars, sea buoys and other devices, this equipment is designed for tracking and attacking submarines. For more on the operations plans of the Polish aircraft, read this.

What this suggests is that the Polish operation was aimed at Russian submarines below the Baltic surface, while the Donald Cook was testing operations against the Russian shore systems which defend against the US Aegis missiles.

A bulletin from the British think-tank Chatham House in London confirms that the US-Polish operation appeared to the Russian side as an attack simulation against Kaliningrad — and for that reason triggered the Russian response. “The videos and statements released by the US Navy give only a partial picture. The close fly-bys seen on video do not seem consistent with the ‘simulated attack profile’ which the US described the Russian aircraft as flying – but it has to be remembered that much of the Russian bombers’ activities would have been observed while the Donald Cook was tracking them long before they came into visual range. Other crucial aspects of the incident which remain undisclosed include what was happening in the electronic environment; what indication the Russian aircraft’s emissions, or lack of them, may have given of their actual intent. In particular, a lack of information on what other activities were taking place in the area at the time makes it hard to judge the picture as seen from Moscow – whether some kind of US or NATO activity there, either on or below the surface of the Baltic, was seen as a particular challenge by Russia which required a strong warning signal to be sent. Some Russian statements have tied this act of dangerous non-verbal communication to the fact that the Donald Cook was conducting training with a Polish aircraft within reach of Russia’s Kaliningrad Region.”

unnamedPolish analysts have gone further, pointing out that if the joint drill was part of a plan of attack against Russian targets, then Poland itself, like Ukraine, has become a “front-line state”. Polish political analyst Stanislas Balcerac (right) has commented skeptically: “Let’s see how much these are worth in practice, our alliances [with the US and with Germany]. And let’s not be afraid to take care of our rights and for adequate compensation. The Polish Navy is practising for a US attack on Kaliningrad by guarding the destroyers like the Donald Cook from Russian submarine interception, so “we have been caught provoking the Russians right at our very border. And since we have officially taken part in the surprise NATO military manoeuvre at armed-to-the-teeth Kaliningrad, and that has visibly upset the Russians, we should demand from our American allies compensation for the status of a front-line state, just like Egypt and Israel, which collect $ 3 billion in aid every year.”

http://johnhelmer.net/?p=15464