Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

sepheronx wrote:Meh, i rather they make it themselves.  They could try after all since it seems Russian tech companies are willing (mikran, elvees, mcst, etc).

Like I said, they will both make them and receive them. This prevents over-production and means that proven components will be used. It also allows the Russian manufactures to spend more time and money on other projects rather than forcing them to expand. It is a none-problem.

That being said, I see where you're coming from... Maybe sometime in the near-future, production and the components will be "all-Russian".

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Meh, i rather they make it themselves.  They could try after all since it seems Russian tech companies are willing (mikran, elvees, mcst, etc).

Like I said, they will both make them and receive them. This prevents over-production and means that proven components will be used. It also allows the Russian manufactures to spend more time and money on other projects rather than forcing them to expand. It is a none-problem.

That being said, I see where you're coming from... Maybe sometime in the near-future, production and the components will be "all-Russian".

Well, the number 1 big thing is keeping competition as you would say. So importing from China, S.Korea and Taiwan is fine by me as well. As long as they try to produce themselves as well.

Russia needs to compete with the west in everything if they want to become seen as an attractive market.. IF you look at things.. again and again and again.. every nation in eastern Europe or EuroAsia preffer the European Union and US.. not because of their "freedom" or "liberties" but because they are way more advanced and modern nations
when it comes to technology for business or for civilians.  Russia is like a Giant factory that you can buy everything to develop technology..  and US and EU is like a Shopping Mall for people to buy already developed technology produced by them.  

Russia needs to develop for God Sake a semiconductor Computer Industry.. Putin is eating shit for a decade buying
computers from the west and software ready to spy in their business. They now planning to develop processors but only for government use..    

Iphones ..is shameful to see Russia long lines for people to buy american hardware...when they could do better.
Software.. even more inexcusable that Russia do not have an Operating System comparable to Windows 8 or Apple Leopard ,when even North Korea have one that is pretty decent and do not have all the Spy shit inside of american software. Game developing Industry , nearly doesn't exist either in Russia.. Is inexcusable that a nation like Canada with only 35 million citizens have one of the Giants in game industry world wide like Ubisoft ,and Russia have nothing that is world to mention. Movie industry ,Home theaters equipment , Audio.. etc.. the list doesnt end..
They do have the capabilities to make state of the art military , but doing nothing on the technology for business and civilians use.

Had Russia had at least a decent Semiconductor Industry that competes with the west , a decent Software Industry and a decent movie Industry , and heck even a music industry ..and their most important cities clean and not dirty ,then they could attract more nations to want to be like Russia. But so far ,what we see until now is countries that join Russia trade blocks because they have no choice. Since the west do not accept membership unless you give away your Sovereignty and territorial integrity and install NATO military bases.

So in Summary Russia needs.. to compete in..
Computers with Software Industry , Movie industry , Music industry ,Entertainment Industry and having decent Cars that everyone wants to buy will be a Plus.  Is pathetic for example and totally inexcusable   that in a hundred of years , Russia did not developed Civilians Planes that could compete with americans Boeing 747 ..and that now ,recently is that they compete with the SUkhoi Superjet 100.

Russia needs an major Education Reform.. ,like Germany ,Brazil ,Cuba etc.. that is mandatory ,and its citizens are given all the tools to understand how any kind of technology is created..Everyone should be keep busy learning something or building technology.. from radios /TVs ,Audios ,Computers etc.. Thats the way Russia can become a
real alternative to the west.. But for now the problem Russia have is that No one consider Russia as an alternative to USA or Europe that is integrated into american business. And this will not change not even if Russia modernize 100% its army and create an army that surpass in every way shape or form US and NATO combined. The only Thing Russia offer to others is cheap Gas and security and that can be debatable after how they have allowed their allies like Syria to be beaten so much.

Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages. Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors). OS, well, there are multiple of them. There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux). Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing. Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand. Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under. Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS. Thing is, they control the market. Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example. Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs. But what about the hardware? Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor. I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU. Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory). So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC. Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy. Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting. Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product. But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.

sepheronx wrote:Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages.  Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors).  OS, well, there are multiple of them.  There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux).  Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing.  Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand.  Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under.  Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS.  Thing is, they control the market.  Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example.  Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs.  But what about the hardware?  Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor.  I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU.  Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory).  So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC.  Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy.  Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting.  Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product.  But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.

Well, I'm going to guess that he means "compared with the West" or something like that... While Russia is still building processors with lithographies over 40 nm+ (excluding the ARM design) the West (namely Intel, AMD, and IBM) are slowly but surely moving over to sub-20 nm FinFET and beyond. Heck, IBM has already produced carbon-based processors with 50,000 transistors! Not to say that Russia "doesn't have" a microprocessing industry, it simply is (admittedly) far behind its competitors. - I live right outside of Silicon Valley, so I know a lot of techies that share a similar opinion on the matter...

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages.  Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors).  OS, well, there are multiple of them.  There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux).  Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing.  Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand.  Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under.  Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS.  Thing is, they control the market.  Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example.  Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs.  But what about the hardware?  Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor.  I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU.  Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory).  So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC.  Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy.  Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting.  Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product.  But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.

Well, I'm going to guess that he means "compared with the West" or something like that... While Russia is still building processors with lithographies over 40 nm+ (excluding the ARM design) the West (namely Intel, AMD, and IBM) are slowly but surely moving over to sub-20 nm FinFET and beyond. Heck, IBM has already produced carbon-based processors with 50,000 transistors! Not to say that Russia "doesn't have" a microprocessing industry, it simply is (admittedly) far behind its competitors. - I live right outside of Silicon Valley, so I know a lot of techies that share a similar opinion on the matter...

Depends. When you say behind, what is the general prospect of these lower nm processors? Elbrus 8C will be 28nm processing BTW. But lets move away from that for a second. Architecture is very important. Very important. You could throw together a system consisting a ridiculous amount of transistors, but what good is that if the software does not take advantage of the architecture? IBM can create amazing processors with its powerPC but even if you have lower topology and increased transistor count, it is pointless if the architecture itself is not that good. And sorry to say, but IBM's powerPC processor architecture is garbage. Only company left that is willing to work with it is pretty much some odd IBM mainframe system (what I use at work) or Nintendo with their powerpc processor in their console. Outside of that, majority has dropped it. When my dad worked for IBM back in the 70's, according to him, their wealth is generated by leasing hardware and not really creating it.

Far behind is a stretch of a term. Let me tell you, my AMD Thuban 6 core at 45nm lithography is a hell of a lot better than the newer Bulldozer and Piledriver AMD processors which operate at 32nm tech.

Elbrus 8C, which is an 8 core VLIW processor running under 28nm tech and x86 added instruction, is a very impressive processor. Actually, MCST is having far more success in its VLIW processor design architecture in terms of lower wattage per performance compared to Intel's VLIW processor, the Itanium line. While Chinese manufacturer, Loongsong, is working on its MIPS processor with x86 added instruction There are competitors, it just lack of business interest.

sepheronx wrote:

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages.  Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors).  OS, well, there are multiple of them.  There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux).  Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing.  Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand.  Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under.  Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS.  Thing is, they control the market.  Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example.  Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs.  But what about the hardware?  Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor.  I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU.  Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory).  So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC.  Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy.  Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting.  Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product.  But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.

Well, I'm going to guess that he means "compared with the West" or something like that... While Russia is still building processors with lithographies over 40 nm+ (excluding the ARM design) the West (namely Intel, AMD, and IBM) are slowly but surely moving over to sub-20 nm FinFET and beyond. Heck, IBM has already produced carbon-based processors with 50,000 transistors! Not to say that Russia "doesn't have" a microprocessing industry, it simply is (admittedly) far behind its competitors. - I live right outside of Silicon Valley, so I know a lot of techies that share a similar opinion on the matter...

Depends.  When you say behind, what is the general prospect of these lower nm processors?  Elbrus 8C will be 28nm processing BTW.  But lets move away from that for a second. Architecture is very important.  Very important.  You could throw together a system consisting a ridiculous amount of transistors, but what good is that if the software does not take advantage of the architecture?  IBM can create amazing processors with its powerPC but even if you have lower topology and increased transistor count, it is pointless if the architecture itself is not that good.  And sorry to say, but IBM's powerPC processor architecture is garbage.  Only company left that is willing to work with it is pretty much some odd IBM mainframe system (what I use at work) or Nintendo with their powerpc processor in their console.  Outside of that, majority has dropped it.  When my dad worked for IBM back in the 70's, according to him, their wealth is generated by leasing hardware and not really creating it.

Far behind is a stretch of a term.  Let me tell you, my AMD Thuban 6 core at 45nm lithography is a hell of a lot better than the newer Bulldozer and Piledriver AMD processors which operate at 32nm tech.  

Elbrus 8C, which is an 8 core VLIW processor running under 28nm tech and x86 added instruction, is a very impressive processor.  Actually, MCST is having far more success in its VLIW processor design architecture in terms of lower wattage per performance compared to Intel's VLIW processor, the Itanium line.  While Chinese manufacturer, Loongsong, is working on its MIPS processor with x86 added instruction  There are competitors, it just lack of business interest.

Architecture and just about everything else is important in a CPU. 28 nm is great, but Intel is already talking about 16 nm FinFET (ARM architecture sort of ruins the idea of it being "Russian" even if the design is modified). 50,000 tansistors is a miserable amount, the important part is carbon. PowerPC is garbage, hence the reason it isn't used. Nintendo now uses AMD, so it is long gone. (Keep in mind that IBM is now more of a researching company rather than a OEM.)

The Thuban is roughly equivalent to the (now old) FX-6200, which is far off from both AMD and Intel's newer models. Bulldozer was the biggest mistake AMD ever made, I learned this the hard way when I invested in them...
 
Not that I don't think the Elbrus 8C is behind, but it is a server processor! - The Itanium is now (by Intel standards) outdated. The newer Xeon models put it to shame. 

My point is simple, Russia doesn't have the microprocessor industry that the US has, and probably never will as long as the US doesn't crash... The day I hear about sub-16 nm based architectures and the production of Carbon, is the day they they've finally gotten close to catching up...

You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at. They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell. But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor. But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development. Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British. And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.

sepheronx wrote:You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at.  They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell.  But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor.  But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development.  Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British.  And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.

TSMC has been producing 16 nam FinFET for some time now, even though it is just a FinFET it is still a big deal... In fact, they just built the first 16 nm FinFET based Cortex-A57! My bad on the Nintendo, I mixed up its CPU and GPU. The Itanium line still exists, but it has been left in the dust by Xeon, it is no longer a member of Intel's super high-end server lineup. Ughhhh, Intel simply follows Moore's law, and that has had amazing results for them. Switching to a totally different ideology from what works great now could be disastrous. - They possibly have the most brain power of any tech company, they know what that are doing... The K-10 architecture was great for its day, but there is no doubt it has been surpassed... As mentioned before, the Thuban is equivalent to a two year old FX-6200. AMD has a lot ahead of us, I'm hoping for the return of "K" based processors. 

As you mentioned, lithography and the number of transistors isn't all that makes a processor. That problem with the Woodcrest was its architecture, nothing else... 
 
Marketing is great, but actual performance is the best...

True, but I'd rather see Russia building a completely Russian designed processor, not one directly based in the West... Building ARM for servers is great, but there will be lots of competition from both AMD and Intel.

And of course in a thread about Uzbekistan, we of course start talking about computer microprocessors.

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at.  They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell.  But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor.  But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development.  Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British.  And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.

TSMC has been producing 16 nam FinFET for some time now, even though it is just a FinFET it is still a big deal... In fact, they just built the first 16 nm FinFET based Cortex-A57! My bad on the Nintendo, I mixed up its CPU and GPU. The Itanium line still exists, but it has been left in the dust by Xeon, it is no longer a member of Intel's super high-end server lineup. Ughhhh, Intel simply follows Moore's law, and that has had amazing results for them. Switching to a totally different ideology from what works great now could be disastrous. - They possibly have the most brain power of any tech company, they know what that are doing... The K-10 architecture was great for its day, but there is no doubt it has been surpassed... As mentioned before, the Thuban is equivalent to a two year old FX-6200. AMD has a lot ahead of us, I'm hoping for the return of "K" based processors. 

As you mentioned, lithography and the number of transistors isn't all that makes a processor. That problem with the Woodcrest was its architecture, nothing else... 
 
Marketing is great, but actual performance is the best...

True, but I'd rather see Russia building a completely Russian designed processor, not one directly based in the West... Building ARM for servers is great, but there will be lots of competition from both AMD and Intel.

A 16nm RISC processor mostly limited to mobile devices....OK

Performance is good for Intel and AMD as they are CISC which Windows takes advantage of.  Intel does have a lot of money, manpower and what not.  But that is due to the fact that they are a large company now and can market the crap out of their hardware.  Intel has said they are committed to the Itanium line as it is now working with HP directly.  No way that Thuban is equivalent of an FX-6200.  that processor was garbage.

As for the whole Baikal making ARM for servers, I don't really know much about that really other than I think it is to gain the mobile market.  Cause if anything, the Elbrus 8C would be key for T-Platforms (Owner of Baikal electronics) in making supercomputers.  That alone would bring in significant money to MCST to further its development to then be able to create even more powerful processors.

Edit: Yeah, Flaming is right, we gotta stop this. Time to go back to Russia section of the forums for further discussion.

I figure I would create this thread so that we can bypass any criticism for posting such info in other threads where they do not belong.

Quick breakdown of Russian Microprocessors and development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_microprocessors

MCST:

Elbrus 2000 — implements VLIW architecture, 300 MHz clock rate, developed by MCST
Elbrus-S
Elbrus-2C+
Elbrus-8C
MCST-R150
MCST-R500
MCST-R500S
MCST-R1000
MCST-4R — 64-bit, 4-core, 2w in-order superscalar, implements SPARC V9 instruction set architecture (ISA), 1000 MHz clock rate,developed by MCST
ELVEES

ELVEES Multicore - multicore hybrid of RISC and DSP
1892VM3T, (Russian: 1892ВМ3Т (MC-12)) - 1 RISC core + 1 DSP core ELcore-14
1892VM2JA, (Russian: 1892ВМ2Я (MC-24)) - 1 RISC core + 1 DSP ELcore-24
1892VM5JA, (Russian: 1892ВМ5Я (МС-0226, ЦПОС-02)) - 1 RISC core + 2 DSP cores (ELcore-26)
1892VM4JA, (Russian: 1892ВМ4Я (MC-0226G, МЦОС)) - 1 RISC core + 2 DSP cores (ELcore-26)
NVCom-01
NVCom-02 in versions 1892VM11YA (1892ВМ11Я, NVCom-02) and 1892VM2YA (1892ВМ10Я, NVCom-02T)
NIISI:

KOMDIV-32 — 32-bit, implements the MIPS I instruction set architecture (ISA), compatible with MIPS R3000, 90 MHz clock rate
KOMDIV-64 (1890VM5) — 64-bit, 2way in-order superscalar, implements the MIPS IV instruction set architecture (ISA), 350 MHz clock rate
KOMDIV128-RIO - coprocessor
NTC Module

NeuroMatrix
NM6403
NM6404
NMC - 64-bit RISC/DSP
NMRC - 32/64-bit RISC
Multiclet

MultiClet P1 - Multicellular
MultiClet R1 - Multicellular, dynamically reconfigurable

Any additional information on others would be nice.

What we know so far in development:
- Baikal electronics (subsidiary of T-Platforms) is making their own 64bit ARM cortex CPU on 28nm technology - Link 1
- MCST will at the end of this year test their 8 core Elbrus 8C VLIW microprocessor which is 28nm as well with hardware support for library x86 support. 24 instructions per cycle and apparently 250 GFLOPS per processor which will be the usual 4 processors per board. Of course, GFLOPS performance really determines based upon the environment. - Link 1

The concept behind this may not have anything to do to compete with Intel and AMD outright as Intel technically owns the market (they have the money, and the facilities in multiple countries, including Russia). But it is to give Russia the option to move away from the standard Intel and AMD. In reality, majority of the home user uses their machine for office work, internet use and basic gaming. Generally, majority of gaming is done on lets say a game console with PC just slowly catching up again. Technically, the Elbrus 2C+ or 4C would actually be more than enough for any individual to run office tasks and basic home tasks. In terms of other functions, not much is well known. Problem is, the lack of software development for it. As tested in the cnews article regarding Elbrus 4C, it is semi slow against the Intel Core i7 processor but in GOST, it outperformed it quite well. But that is because GOST takes advantage of the Elbrus architecture thus giving it that edge. If more software was developed for the Elbrus architecture, gaurantee it would serve a far better purpose. But that is the one problem - availability of the hardware and lack of software. These processors are technically meant for server grade enviornment which in that case, we are awaiting for full production to take place before anything can be said and done. Even at that, I have no idea as to when they become readily available and who will sell it. Kraftway I know is usually the partner for MCST to release the hardware for it. But on their site, I cannot find anything as Elbrus 2C+ was initially designed for radar systems and 2SM, 4C and 8C are currently being worked on/tested by MCST.

Baikal electronics said they are working on their own ARM cortex processor. This is good as it will allow them to gain access to the Android world with their own processor and since the Android OS is used worldwide, it would make it much easier to streamline any production on it to other systems using similar architecture. Good that they are doing it themselves. Bad as it isn't their own design. But that is only the beginning of it, as it was said that this is the first of their own processors. So maybe if it becomes successful, they will openly compete against MCST for the microprocessing industry of Russia.

sepheronx wrote:

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at.  They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell.  But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor.  But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development.  Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British.  And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.

TSMC has been producing 16 nam FinFET for some time now, even though it is just a FinFET it is still a big deal... In fact, they just built the first 16 nm FinFET based Cortex-A57! My bad on the Nintendo, I mixed up its CPU and GPU. The Itanium line still exists, but it has been left in the dust by Xeon, it is no longer a member of Intel's super high-end server lineup. Ughhhh, Intel simply follows Moore's law, and that has had amazing results for them. Switching to a totally different ideology from what works great now could be disastrous. - They possibly have the most brain power of any tech company, they know what that are doing... The K-10 architecture was great for its day, but there is no doubt it has been surpassed... As mentioned before, the Thuban is equivalent to a two year old FX-6200. AMD has a lot ahead of us, I'm hoping for the return of "K" based processors. 

As you mentioned, lithography and the number of transistors isn't all that makes a processor. That problem with the Woodcrest was its architecture, nothing else... 
 
Marketing is great, but actual performance is the best...

True, but I'd rather see Russia building a completely Russian designed processor, not one directly based in the West... Building ARM for servers is great, but there will be lots of competition from both AMD and Intel.

A 16nm RISC processor mostly limited to mobile devices....OK

Performance is good for Intel and AMD as they are CISC which Windows takes advantage of.  Intel does have a lot of money, manpower and what not.  But that is due to the fact that they are a large company now and can market the crap out of their hardware.  Intel has said they are committed to the Itanium line as it is now working with HP directly.  No way that Thuban is equivalent of an FX-6200.  that processor was garbage.

As for the whole Baikal making ARM for servers, I don't really know much about that really other than I think it is to gain the mobile market.  Cause if anything, the Elbrus 8C would be key for T-Platforms (Owner of Baikal electronics) in making supercomputers.  That alone would bring in significant money to MCST to further its development to then be able to create even more powerful processors.

Edit: Yeah, Flaming is right, we gotta stop this.  Time to go back to Russia section of the forums for further discussion.

Still 16 nm... Intel will have 16 nm and below within a couple of years on desktop CPU's.

If they are so devoted to Itanium, why did they leave it behind? They have a single model in the Itanium line up...  Thuban = FX-6200 *when it comes to performance*.

Agreed, but the market for the 8C is limited and very competitive. 

Yep....

Doubt we will see it anytime soon. And like most iterations, it will be a 10% or less performance increase like plenty times before.

HTC, mainframe market is huge. Dont underestimate it as it is what is keeping IBM alive. 8C wont face much competition as SPARC is outdated and only real conpetitor is Intel after the fact AMD is moving to ARM for their next Opteron. As well, after US black listed T-Platforms, a successful HPC company, then there was this push. As well as finding back doors in cpu design.

Past Itanium was just a shy of 2 years ago. It isnt like cisc processors were you come up with some lousy upgrade and piss poor socket design every 6 months. It is an HP and Intel collaberation which is working well for HP apparently.

sepheronx wrote:Doubt we will see it anytime soon. And like most iterations, it will be a 10% or less performance increase like plenty times before.

HTC, mainframe market is huge. Dont underestimate it as it is what is keeping IBM alive. 8C wont face much competition as SPARC is outdated and only real conpetitor is Intel after the fact AMD is moving to ARM for their next Opteron. As well, after US black listed T-Platforms, a successful HPC company, then there was this push. As well as finding back doors in cpu design.

Past Itanium was just a shy of 2 years ago. It isnt like cisc processors were you come up with some lousy upgrade and piss poor socket design every 6 months. It is an HP and Intel collaberation which is working well for HP apparently.

Well, Nvidia GPU's ARM CPU's will be using by the end of next year, and Intel should be 14 nm by mid-2016... FinFET's won't have huge advantages over larger lithographing, but TSMC's new FinFET+ should change that. After the FinFET's we will we huge advantages...

AMD is only proposing ARM based designs for lower cost and lower power servers. The main trial with the 8C is if it is as good as they say, and if it can actually be built in large numbers...

Once again, why did Intel abandon it?

Mike E wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Doubt we will see it anytime soon. And like most iterations, it will be a 10% or less performance increase like plenty times before.

HTC, mainframe market is huge. Dont underestimate it as it is what is keeping IBM alive. 8C wont face much competition as SPARC is outdated and only real conpetitor is Intel after the fact AMD is moving to ARM for their next Opteron. As well, after US black listed T-Platforms, a successful HPC company, then there was this push. As well as finding back doors in cpu design.

Past Itanium was just a shy of 2 years ago. It isnt like cisc processors were you come up with some lousy upgrade and piss poor socket design every 6 months. It is an HP and Intel collaberation which is working well for HP apparently.

Well, Nvidia GPU's ARM CPU's will be using by the end of next year, and Intel should be 14 nm by mid-2016... FinFET's won't have huge advantages over larger lithographing, but TSMC's new FinFET+ should change that. After the FinFET's we will we huge advantages...

AMD is only proposing ARM based designs for lower cost and lower power servers. The main trial with the 8C is if it is as good as they say, and if it can actually be built in large numbers...

Once again, why did Intel abandon it?

They didn't.  Kittson is next in line. Because Intel failed at VLIW, doesn't mean Russia has to.  Actually, GPU's are VLIW processors.  Anyway, Elbrus 4C showed it is quite impressive performance for 700mhz processor.  BTW, the push for VLIW was through Babayan, whom worked for Intel or at least is now.

If Intel abandoned it, then they wouldn't be supporting it and creating a new one, which evidently, they are.  Itanium was their failure.  But that does not mean that VLIW processors are all failures.  Mike, I hope you understand this.  So let me get this straight, because Intel failed at something, while Russian MCST is showing actual success with its VLIW processor design, it should just give up and buy Intel?

Once again, throwing transistors around and reducing size is one aspect to performance increase.  Architecture is far more important and software development.  As of right now, majority of software is poorly designed thus requires huge amount of CPU resources to do the job, which makes these Intel processors good.  But in the end, well, they are not really all that amazing.  What is amazing are the changes in different architectures, not the same architecture rehashed a dozen times and reduced in size and increased transistor count.  Intel is doing this as they control the market.  I doubt we will see 16nm tech anytime soon on the market.  That is your dream Mike, but I don't think it will change to reality anytime soon.

BTW, AMD does not manufacture their own processors anymore.  They are a FABless facility.  Much like what MCST is.

Technically, RISC is far better as it has been proven that its performance per clock cycle is higher than CISC simply because the fact there is very little amount of instruction sets. While CISC is filled with them. Problem is, lack of development on RISC processors and software pertaining to it.

Here is my last post on this topic in Uzbekistan thread:

Just because Intel is pushing CISC processors more and reducing lithography and increasing transistor count, does not mean that MCST needs to give up.  Sorry mike, but the world does not work that way.  Intel has the money to push their products, hence why they are bigger.  But technically, CISC processors are garbage outside of Windows OS.  A system running Unix designed around a RISC is far better, and has been for decades.  But these days, they are expensive to manufacture and are not as open as CISC is, as well as CISC are much easier to program for.  ARM is just the change where there is a re-investment into RISC as SPARC is pretty much almost dead.  VLIW is more or less a RISC style processing but using very long instructions but are still much reduced compared to CISC.

We can continue this here:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t3439-russian-semiconductor-and-processing-technology

I really think Putin is really eating Shit Big time.. he one decade late ,in developing its semiconductor industry.
And even more time if we blame other leaders before him.. The Semiconductor Industry is the third most important one..for Russia after its military industry and space industry.  He is losing a HUGE opportunity to compete in such
profitable and prestigious market in moments where US Government spying have very annoyed not only
Latin America but also its European allies.

Because US is not only spying average people ,but also high ranked politicians and Presidents thanks to
US monopoly in the semiconductor Industry and graphics and processors.

If for example RUssia tomorrow, develops a New personal Computer with an Operating System and Business Software that is very useful for the international Business.. and with similar performance.. then American Companies
will experience a major black hole in their sales and it will significantly not only boost Russia economy but create entire new Business and markets...

It will be like the latest  Iphone.. people waiting in big lines to buy Personal COmputers that will allow people to navigate online safely without being Spied By US corporations. without the need of anti virus. And companies will be able to buy computers that their intelectual property secrets cannot be stolen.

Intel is a great company.. but what Ruins it.. is that is an american company and every company in US have to submit to the dirty hands of the Federal US government. Ie... spy software or hardware is integrated in US made computers.. This might not matter for the average joe but for a company Russia defense Industry is a HUGE issue..
because US if they wanted it.. could sabotage a Nuclear Reactor if the engineers who develop it had it connected to american made computers.. or also another issue is Business spying for intelectual property stealing. So all electronic hardware from computers ,to hardware that connect to computer , to home theaters to Modern cars with American computers integrated , to consoles.. where US Gov can control the government from where the technology was made.. could have Spy hardware or software integrated. So any american/European/Korean or Japanese electronics are a Huge Security Issue including gaming consoles to have in any military base ,specially if have connection to satellite as now every smart phone can. Because spy hardware could be used against Russia in case of war. This is probably the reason why for any foreigner to sell any CAR in Russia it need to be all the hardware done in Russia so they can inspect there is not any cheat or spy thing inside. Russia needs to build build microprocessors not only for Business but also for civilians use.. is a must.. not only for security but also for the mayor development that will be to their technology and economy.

If Russia this week announced a new Personal Computer and advertise it as NSA free.. as 100% free of Spyware.
it will be like selling water in the desert to lost travelers.. because All Europe and US allies will buy it..in the millions in not time ,all Business companies including american ones will do it.. to keep away the American Federal Government dirty fingers and their noses from their Intelectual property . The other Big blow that also Russia needs to do is a Second Internet.. as an alternative to US controlled one.. that will be Huge knockdown to US spying business.


+1 to you @sepheronx  very good information ..

The aim is not to have maybe a direct competitor to Intel/AMD, since Intel and AMD are designing CISC processors, which are native x86 and Elbrus E2K architecture is a VLIW which is not native x86 but has an additional instruction set for it.  What is can do though, is if they can develop a system of software for a specific OS, like lets say Synergy, which major companies use, while the processor is developed around it, then they can technically have a system that is very much similar to what Apple had back in the G5 days when they ran the BSD based OS on a IBM RISC PowerPC processor.  VLIW are more impressive at server based systems but on that same note, all depends on how effective its architecture really is.

Here is some info: http://www.mcst.ru/novyj-8yadernyj-mikroprocessor-elbrus-8c

ZAO "MCST" launched a pilot batch of universal microprocessors Elbrus-8C . Rated operating frequency of the chip - 1.3 GHz, manufacturing technology - 28 nm, the computing power of 250 gigaflops. Getting ready-made samples of chips is expected in October 2014.

Elbrus microprocessor-8C - all Russian development. Crystal microprocessor designed for 28 nm technology, has 8 cores with improved 64-bit architecture Elbrus 3rd generation, cache level 2 the total volume of 4 megabytes and Layer 3 volume 16 megabytes.

Microprocessor-based Elbrus-8C planned mass production servers, workstations and other computer aids intended to be used in public institutions and business structures, placing increased demands on information security, as well as for use in high-performance computing, signal processing, telecommunications. Engineering samples of 4-processor servers based on processors Elbrus-8C with a capacity of 1 teraflops will be made at the end of 2014.

Domestic architecture developed Elbrus in Russia and has some unique features. These include:

ability to perform on each core to 25 operations in a single clock cycle, which provides high performance at a moderate clock frequency;
dynamic binary translation technology, which allows to ensure the effective execution of applications and operating systems, distributed in binary codes x86, including multi-threaded;
support for the regime of protected computing with special hardware control integrity of the structure of memory, which allows a high level of information security using its software systems.
The underlying operating system platform is OS Elbrus "Elbrus", built on the basis of kernel Linux. Programming system platform supports languages ​​C, C ++, Java, Fortran 77, Fortran 90.

Key note is to work on efficiency of the OS to hardware translation more so than just raw power.  Efficiency is key here, and they can come up with an amazing project if only they work hard on it.  Either that or go back to just standard MIPS, RISC or attempt at a CISC.  But technically, it sounds impressive.

BTW, Multiclet has their own blog on sdelanounas.ru

http://sdelanounas.ru/blog/MultiClet/

So there is industrial equipment made with their processors. Waiting now for Sputnik satellites to be carrying them as they are working together on it.

My understanding is that Russia is working with a British made old open hardware microprocessing arquitecture.
And that they are not interested ,neither intending to Compete with American INTEL or AMD.. simply make a processor that is safe for they to use . But i really think they can do better.. And not only produce a cheap quick
solution first for their Government security .. but also push for a long Term Business of competing with INTEL of AMD. If they had the vision they could do it.. is amazing how could Russia leadership not jumped a decade before in the Semiconductor Business with the same energy they have done with the Space industry.. or Military Industry which they have essentially surpassed US. Im sure Russia have the capabilities to achieve the same success in the Semiconductor and Graphics industry. Is the Big missing thing in Russia..to really become an attractive market for Europe ,where everyone wants to be part of Russia and not just become a gas station as they are often and rightly called.

IF you think about this Sep.. had Russia developed a strong Semiconductor Business and Entertainment industry  too. The Ukraine conflict will have never happened.. because Europe will have been integrated long time ago with Russia ,which is the most natural thing to do since they share borders.

When you look at things that way.. that Europe is a colony of US.. is not because they can't avoid it.
.but because they want it.. because that the condition US use to be their ally and have all benefit from
the things they have to sale. Had Russia be something much more than a Gas Station with cheap space travel..
and be more competitive to USA.. then Europe will very unlikely choose to Ally with US and NATO will not even exist.. because they can buy all the things they can't get from US from Russia.  Is completely retarded.. that Russian leadership all the way to soviet times have not seen before, that you can  influence other nations by just becoming a very developed and advanced nation with a stable economy.

have all the good technology that everyone love..

Vann7 wrote:

My understanding is that Russia is working with a British made old open hardware microprocessing arquitecture.
And that they are not interested ,neither intending to Compete with American INTEL or AMD.. simply make a processor that is safe for they to use . But i really think they can do better.. And not only produce a cheap quick
solution first for their Government security .. but also push for a long Term Business of competing with INTEL of AMD. If they had the vision they could do it.. is amazing how could Russia leadership not jumped a decade before in the Semiconductor Business with the same energy they have done with the Space industry.. or Military Industry which they have essentially surpassed US. Im sure Russia have the capabilities to achieve the same success in the Semiconductor and Graphics industry. Is the Big missing thing in Russia..to really become an attractive market for Europe ,where everyone wants to be part of Russia and not just become a gas station as they are often and rightly called.

IF you think about this Sep.. had Russia developed a strong Semiconductor Business and Entertainment industry  too. The Ukraine conflict will have never happened.. because Europe will have been integrated long time ago with Russia ,which is the most natural thing to do since they share borders.

The VLIW will technically be that, since besides Itanium, the Elbrus VLIW processors are only in few.  Most VLIW are graphics processors.  Anyway, it is geared towards specialization like Servers, Workstations and maybe other systems like industrial equipment (what 4C was designed for).  In the end, the ARM processor from Baikal to be expected next year will be for more common use as mobile devices specifically are massive sales in Russia and could work in some sort of personal computer as long as they have an OS designed for it.  Cannot be windows as it was proven the ARM is not very good at Windows hence why Intel Atom processors are used for Windows mobile systems. Well, that isn't 100% true but close. It sucks but when you have a company as small as MCST making some advanced VLIW processor it isn't so bad, but Baikal is the head scratcher here. Rusnano, Rostec and T-Platforms are investing the money in the development of it. That is a lot of groups and money. Why not invest the money towards MCST who already have a working units and a semi proven design? If they want RISC processor, they could have further went on with SPARC design as even Oracle came out with a latest SPARC v9 variant called M8 or something like that. But regardless, the extra money and possibly assistance in assets could have further improved Elbrus 8C development in creating an even more competitive processor. But I guess end goal isn't to directly compete, but to have an alternative and something to fall back on, along with being able to use without the fear of ease dropping or counter intelligence/sabotaging.