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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:21 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:As I pointed out and you have now ignored 3 or 4 times, Baikal electronics is moving to GS nanogroup.  As well, It is well known they produce both MIPS and ARM processors. Lastly, it's been mentioned that they don't care about IP from enemy states which UK which holds patent ownership of ARM is one of said states.
    MIPS architecture patents are held by a Chinese owned company located in the UK. Imagination Technologies.
    I know KOMDIV-64 are MIPS architecture chips designed in Russia. But certain Baikal MIPS processors use libraries bought from Imagination.

    The chip designs which ARM and Imagination already transferred are fair game. But not paying royalties on existing designs means Russia will not be getting any new chip designs. If Russia could get them in the first place with the sanctions.

    I am not worried about the Western ban on sales of software for chip design at all since that can just be pirated.
    The problem in that front is licensing chip designs and cell libraries. The data files used to design chips not the EDA software.

    65nm or 55nm chips are not a replacement for the planned Baikal lineup. Like the Baikal-S. 48 core 16nm chips which are likely manufactured by TSMC. Or the 128 core Baikal-S2 which was to be manufactured at 6nm currently in development. A 65nm ARM chip should be easy to get in the gray market and higher chip production costs in Russia plus competition with limited fab space in Russia with other more strategically relevant applications mean Baikal will be severely restricted in terms of production. Heck, you can get a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W with a 28nm ARM processor, which is a complete computer, for $15 USD.

    You could buy e-waste from China to "recycle" and remove the old chips from the boards and it would be cheaper.

    rigoletto wrote:As per counter-sanctions, Russia will not respect western IP anymore, they may ever start building x86 processors if they wish.
    A bad idea and a waste of time. x86 is not militarily relevant. Plus there will be so many second hand processors in the gray market you will still be able to get them. If for whatever reason you really need x86 for some legacy application Elbrus has hardware support for x86 emulation.

    The Chinese are already trying to have their own x86 with Zhaoxin. Guess what Windows 11 does not support it. Windows 11 requires hardware TPM 2.0 support. The whole x86 ecosystem is a goddamned trap in the first place. And they are closing the trap.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:08 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    MIPS architecture patents are held by a Chinese owned company located in the UK. Imagination Technologies.
    I know KOMDIV-64 are MIPS architecture chips designed in Russia. But certain Baikal MIPS processors use libraries bought from Imagination.

    The chip designs which ARM and Imagination already transferred are fair game. But not paying royalties on existing designs means Russia will not be getting any new chip designs. If Russia could get them in the first place with the sanctions.

    I am not worried about the Western ban on sales of software for chip design at all since that can just be pirated.
    The problem in that front is licensing chip designs and cell libraries. The data files used to design chips not the EDA software.

    65nm or 55nm chips are not a replacement for the planned Baikal lineup. Like the Baikal-S. 48 core 16nm chips which are likely manufactured by TSMC. Or the 128 core Baikal-S2 which was to be manufactured at 6nm currently in development. A 65nm ARM chip should be easy to get in the gray market and higher chip production costs in Russia plus competition with limited fab space in Russia with other more strategically relevant applications mean Baikal will be severely restricted in terms of production. Heck, you can get a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W with a 28nm ARM processor, which is a complete computer, for $15 USD.

    You could buy e-waste from China to "recycle" and remove the old chips from the boards and it would be cheaper.

    In All Honesty, I was never impressed with the way that Baikal went with licenses outside.  I know why they did, but it wasn't necessary but I guess just cheaper.  I wouldn't be surprised if they went with a whole new design based upon what Komdiv is doing. Or maybe the will finally join forces with MCST like I suggested in the past (Since MCST still has full license of SPARC design CPU's which are ideal for HPC).

    I know what you mean but in the end, these chips wont be used for average day to day use.  I believe GS Nanogroup would be able to handle the larger order batch simply because they produce some of the most IC's as is for the set top box (meaning that it has to be cheaper production too) for all of Russia.  Now I know it would eat into their current developments to have a separate company come in and start production at their facilities but they (GS and Baikal) clearly know something we do not hence the idea of joint work.  This could also mean that Baikal and GS could be working on a dual use chip for their needs.

    Interesting times and we shall see what they decide to do.  I figure China in one way or another will play a big role for MCST, Baikal and others in the future regardless.

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    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:12 pm

    Oh god, the people circle jerking themselves on how China and much less Russia won't be able to compete, since they will never be able to properly copy the oh so advanced and complex EUV/DUV machines.

    Sadly this ain't my area, and it's true that Russia has been way too overreliant on TSMC.

    But these guys be flexing so hard. Rolling Eyes

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:23 pm

    I think it is only a matter of time until the Chinese have their own indigenous chip supply chain across the whole product spectrum. The Japanese managed to do it in the 1980-90s. It will be more expensive today but the Chinese have a huge internal market to serve and continuously pump money into R&D.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:25 pm

    lancelot wrote:I think it is only a matter of time until the Chinese have their own indigenous chip supply chain across the whole product spectrum. The Japanese managed to do it in the 1980-90s. It will be more expensive today but the Chinese have a huge internal market to serve and continuously pump money into R&D.

    The internal market of China alone outdoes the entire west. Combine Russia into it and its a huge market. This is why I am all for a JV into this development between the two.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:30 pm

    http://marchmontnews.com/Technology-Innovation/Central-regions/23642-Quantum-computing-takes-one-step-forward-ququarts-instead-qubits.html

    Quantum computing takes one step forward: ququarts instead of qubits

    Physicists at the Moscow-based Russian Quantum Center and their partners from the Lebedev Institute of Physics appear to have learned to use quantum computing ions for data encryption with much greater efficiency.

    The scientists have reportedly made use of the ion’s four energy levels, turning it into what’s known in quantum mechanics as ququarts – unlike old methods that have only helped get a double-level system called qubits. The researchers believe their approach will enable with just two ions the same computing capacity that has thus far been only possible with four.

    Qubits in any of their implementation can only exist in their two extreme states: 0 and 1; or in a state of their superposition. Qubit-based computing takes advantage of just a small fraction of the entire energy level system in quantum mechanics.

    Scientists across the world have been trying to find a solution in which all or at least few more energy levels can be utilized – which means the creation of qudits that are systems with more than two levels.

    The Moscow-based group led by Nikolai Kolachevskiy has apparently hit the target as it experimented with four level driven computing. In their effort to scale up the system, the physicists have reportedly added no extra ions for computing but used more levels of the already existing particles instead.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:26 am

    Necessity is the mother of invention, I fully expect them to look at their alternatives in the short term and the longer term and longer term might be 3D structures that are 3D printed for all we know...

    Oh god, the people circle jerking themselves on how China and much less Russia won't be able to compete, since they will never be able to properly copy the oh so advanced and complex EUV/DUV machines.

    Sadly this ain't my area, and it's true that Russia has been way too overreliant on TSMC.

    But these guys be flexing so hard.

    It is a messy divorce, and a real hit to the ego of the west, which thinks it is the centre of the human universe and no one can reject their rule and authority over the planet.... otherwise where will it end... a UN full of countries that don't vote the way we tell them to because they are scared of us? Or should I say scared of the US.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:04 pm

    http://semiteq.org/products/wafer_processing_equipment_pvd_pe_pecvd_rta/

    Russia has its own wafer processing technology companies. This is something a lot of analysts do not grasp thanks to their
    chauvinism. Russia has enormous scientific and technological depth. Commercialization of this is not the sole metric.

    Reminds me of the moronic evaluation of Russia's level of development based on its resource export profile.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:23 pm



    Only in Russian. Head guy at SemiTeq talking about active support for IC manufacturing equipment from the Russian government
    last year. Plans to develop high volume equipment.

    As I said before, people are going to be surprised. Just because you did not see endless PR masturbation from Russia on any given
    tech, does not mean nothing is there.

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    gc3762


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    Post  gc3762 Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:43 am

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/146062/

    Development of domestic photolithographs is underway in Zelenograd

    Two Zelenograd organizations commissioned by the Ministry of Industry and Trade to develop photolithographs (steppers) for the implementation of different design standards. These are the Zelenograd Nanotechnology Center, which will develop a 130 nm photolithograph, and the Microsystem Engineering and Electronic Component Base Center for Collective Use at the Moscow Institute of Electronic Technology (MST and ECB MIET), which has taken on the development of the concept of a maskless extra ultraviolet (EUF) lithograph with a radiation wavelength of less than 13.5 nm with a resolution of 28 nm or less.

    The article (in Russian) is much longer and describes the technical challenges and progress.

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    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:04 pm

    It seems this product is meant for exclusive customers, I hope they come up with a version without the added armor (titanium alloy) that will be more affordable for the average person.



    BITBLAZE TITAN BM15, A RUSSIAN NOTEBOOK WITH RUSSIAN CHIP ANNOUNCED

    Promobit from Omsk, Russia has launched a “Russian notebook computer” BITBLAZE Titan BM15. According to the schedule of the device, it will be officially available at the end of the year. This notebook comes with a Russian processor, Baikal-M, and uses a 15.6-inch screen. This notebook uses titanium alloy and targets the Russian government and enterprise customers. In terms of pricing, this device will have a 100,000 rubles ($980) starting price.

    The RF “Baikal-M” series CPU adopts an 8-core ARM architecture and it is based on TSMC’s 28nm process. It clocks at 1.5 GHz and integrates a Mali-T628 MP8 core, GPU frequency 750MHz, supports dual-channel DDR4-2400 or DDR3- 1600 memory. The power consumption of this device does not exceed 35W.

    The BITBLAZE Titan BM15 comes with a 15.6-inch IPS display with a resolution of 1920 × 1080. This device also supports 16GB of memory and a 512GB SSD. It weighs about 2 kg and is about 2 cm thick. Furthermore, this notebook has a battery life of about two hours.

    This laptop will be available in two versions. The first one uses an aluminum casing, priced at about 100,000 rubles ($980) while the other uses a titanium alloy casing and costs about 200,000 rubles ($1961). The prices, for now, are just speculations. As of now, there there is no official price tag or sales date for this device. What we know for now is that this notebook exists and it will enter mass production at the end of this year.

    https://www.gizchina.com/2022/03/26/bitblaze-titan-bm15-a-russian-notebook-with-russian-chip-announced/

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:18 am

    The 28 nm resolution IC level is good enough to meet the needs of the Russian consumer market. China can easily deliver the production
    capacity for this. All the yammering about "7" nm is BS. There are other solutions for HPC that do not require nose bleed lithography.
    In fact, ultra high density ICs are a hack. Instead of applying a higher level optimization (architecture, algorithms) you just increase
    the clock rate by die shrinks.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:45 pm

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:06 am

    Huawei is a good company, ... you can tell because they have been banished from the west, so Russia working with Huawei is a very very good thing for both parties.

    My first touch screen phone is a huawei... I am still using it because it still works... have had it for more than 10 years... it still has the original battery.

    I use it as my alarmclock and calendar for appointments...

    So much of google stuff is invasive and spyware anyway, would be good for them to create their own slim OS that does not take up enormous space or require high power hardware to run at an expected speed.

    This is yet another opportunity to destroy a monopoly.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:15 am

    Only makes sense. Especially since the company has offices in Russia for R&D. This will just strengthen their position in Russia even with third companies building devices under its ecosystem.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:33 am

    gc3762 wrote:https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/146062/

    Development of domestic photolithographs is underway in Zelenograd

    Two Zelenograd organizations commissioned by the Ministry of Industry and Trade to develop photolithographs (steppers) for the implementation of different design standards. These are the Zelenograd Nanotechnology Center, which will develop a 130 nm photolithograph, and the Microsystem Engineering and Electronic Component Base Center for Collective Use at the Moscow Institute of Electronic Technology (MST and ECB MIET), which has taken on the development of the concept of a maskless extra ultraviolet (EUF) lithograph with a radiation wavelength of less than 13.5 nm with a resolution of 28 nm or less.

    The article (in Russian) is much longer and describes the technical challenges and progress.

    This is what is the huge news and I thank you for posting it. This needs far more attention.

    This is essentially Russian institutions, two of them, building two types of Lithography equipment. 1 for mass production of chips needed for industrial and military and other use while the next being built by MST going to be for more modern and newer designs for basic consumers use.

    And they are getting Belarus help since they still make such equipment to this day. After which, it was said in the article that the teams will then select a company via a bid on who will mass produce such equipment.

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    Gazputin


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    Post  Gazputin Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:08 am

    this guy is doing a bit of a background on lithographic stuff

    I do agree with Kvet
    do you really need better than 28nm or 14nm spinoff ?

    maybe for supercomputers re energy and heat ...... mobile phones ? nuh

    https://zen.yandex.ru/electromozg?lang=en&referrer_clid=446

    http://trdc.com/portfolio/teus100



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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:04 am

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4503539.html

    Article in Russian... Here below a machine translation

    Sanctions prospects for microelectronics in Russia



    An interesting article by Denis Shamiryan ( @CorneliusAgrippa ) "Microelectronics in Russia before and after 24.02.2022" about the current state of microelectronics production in Russia and about the possibilities in the conditions of large-scale Western sanctions to create a fully localized production of microelectronic components.

    Micron

    Installation of lithography at JSC "Mikron" in Zelenograd (Moscow) (c) "Made by us"


    In light of recent events (for posterity: google Russia, Ukraine, February 24, 2022), which led to the imposition of sanctions against Russia in the field of high technologies and, in particular, microelectronics, I often hear the question: what next? What is the current state of Russian microelectronic production? Will Russia be able to create a completely local production of chips?

    I must say right away that this article does not pretend to be a comprehensive independent analysis of the situation, but reflects my personal point of view, based largely not on open sources, but on experience: more than 20 years in the industry, 15 years abroad, as in R&D (IMEC) , and in mass production (Global Foundries) plus 8 years in Russia (launching a MEMS production plant from scratch), personal communication, opinions of other specialists; in general, everything for which it is impossible or very difficult to find evidence. Therefore, I will not provide proofs - everyone has their own point of view and the right to express it (at least for now).

    I will only talk about production technologies, since I myself am a former technologist, I have never had anything to do with design, and phrases like “licensing processor cores” are dark and incomprehensible to me.

    I also note that I will only talk about CMOS production, firstly because this topic is most interesting to consumers (this is consumer electronics - processors, memory, etc.), and secondly, I worked abroad in CMOS (aka CMOS ) production and have a good idea of ​​it from the inside, thirdly, I myself am now working in the MEMS industry and I will not write about it, since I am an interested party.

    The article consists of three parts:

    Analysis of current manufacturers

    Reflections on the topic of completely local production of microelectronics

    An attempt to look into the future

    Analysis of the current situation

    First, let's look at the current manufacturers of microelectronics. I will only talk about more or less modern factories capable of producing microcircuits according to the 180 nm process technology and below. To make it clear, I will give examples of processors produced according to a certain technology, the data is taken from Wikipedia, there in the article there is a column on the right with all technical processes, you can click and see what was produced for this technical process (and when). So, 180 nm is the beginning of the 2000s, processors such as Intel Celeron and PlayStation 2. We will not consider any old Soviet factories (such as NZPP) working on technologies larger than a micron (for example, Intel 80286 was made using 1.5 micron technology) .

    A small caveat about the size of the plates. Modern production works on either 200 mm (up to 90 nm) or 300 mm (65 nm and below) silicon wafers. The most advanced hardware for sub-65nm technologies only exists in the 300mm variant. Therefore, it will not work to make high technologies on 200 mm plates. And equipment for 300 mm wafers is significantly (many times) more expensive than equipment for 200 mm wafers.

    So what do we have at the moment.

    Micron

    Mikron is the most lively microelectronic production in Russia. They work on 200 mm wafers, they have 180 nm technology (in mass production), 90 nm (I'm not sure if it's very mass production, but I could be wrong; 90 nm is Intel Celeron M / D, AMD Athlon 64), 65 nm (here I have big doubts that there is mass production; 65 nm is AMD Turion 64 X2, Microsoft Xbox 360 "Falcon"). I once participated in attempts to develop 65 nm technology on 200 mm wafers (IMEC, Belgium), but the equipment did not pull, so the 65 nm process technology was transferred to 300 mm equipment.

    Mikron produces in large volumes, mainly chips for bank cards, passports, subway tickets, etc. In small volumes, they produce what they were sanctioned for. They have been under sanctions for a long time, so they have already somehow learned how to deal with it. The turnover is more than 6 billion rubles, of which they earn about half themselves, the rest is donated by the state (for example, in the form of subsidies under Decree 109 of the Ministry of Industry and Trade - Micron is always among the recipients of subsidies there).

    Angstrem-T

    Do not confuse with just Angstrem (without T) - Angstrem is just an old Soviet production, they made chips for Soviet calculators and the game "Just you wait" - if anyone is old enough to remember it, there is a wolf eggs from under chickens caught. Angstrem is still alive and producing products (of course, not for calculators).

    The history of Angstrem-T began in 2007, when Global Foundries (then it was still the AMD factory - Fab36, Dresden), began the transition to 300 mm wafers and sold all equipment and technologies for 200 mm Angstrem-T: 130 nm (AMD Athlon level MP Thoroughbred) full process documentation with guaranteed yield and 90 nm - developed but not yet in mass production. At that time it was quite new technology. But then something went wrong. The equipment got stuck in a warehouse in Rotterdam, and when I came to work for Global Foundries in 2011, it was already the talk of the town - how they sold the equipment to a Russian company, but instead of being used, it has been rotting in the warehouse for 4 years. It rotted somewhere else until 2014, after which it nevertheless arrived in Russia. A plant was built in Zelenograd, almost an exact copy of Dresden, they even built their own power plant to buy gas instead of electricity and generate electricity on their own so as not to depend on power outages. The same was done in Dresden, however, the Germans managed to turn off the electricity at the plant themselves (just in time for me) - but that's another story.

    So, the plant was built, the equipment was delivered, I was there and experienced deja vu after Dresden - everything is exactly the same, installations in the same places, with the same code names.

    That is, everything looked more or less normal there, but there is some strange story with the leadership there. I have a whole collection of business cards of the general directors of Angstrem-T of the same design, only the names are different - they changed there constantly (along with the whole team). Once I talked with one of the deputies, he asked me how quality control is arranged, I told him, he started laughing and said that I did not understand anything about quality control. Well, our quality control is organized according to the same principles by which I made modem chips for Qualcomm for the fifth iPhones in Germany, Apple did not seem to complain about the quality. So I shrugged my shoulders but didn't argue. Once again, I talked with VP sales ASML, he was interested in how Angstrem-T was doing and said that since their scanners had been in stock for 7 years, it would be very difficult to launch them and offered to trade-in the old scanners, and put newer ones in Angstrem-T with an additional charge. I retold this conversation to the management of Angstrem-T and said that in my opinion this is a good option - they will get a quick result of better quality, albeit for extra money. The management of Angstrem-T said that they did not know anything about this proposal. Strange, I thought, some left-wing dude like me knows, but those who were offered this and for whom it should be important - do not.

    As a result, 15 years have passed since the purchase of the line, and production is still not working. Whether it will ever work, I don't know. The company is currently bankrupt.

    Crocus nanoelectronics

    The original idea of ​​Crocus is the production of MRAM - magnetoresistive memory. I will not go into details, in short - you get non-volatile memory (like on flash drives) that runs at the speed of RAM (like DRAM). A lot of people are salivating from this combination, so many have tried to make it (I know about Sony and Infineon for sure). The problem turned out to be that theoretically everything is beautiful, but in reality it didn’t work out very well, more precisely, it turned out, but the speed turned out to be at the level of ordinary flash memory, and flash memory is already there, why bother with another technology for what is already great working?

    But, before it became clear, Rusnano decided to invest in a 300 mm factory using a 65 nm process technology in Russia. You can be ironic about Rosnano as you like, but at the moment this is the only factory in Russia on 300 mm wafers with a working 65 nm technology. True, there is a nuance.

    In the original model, it was assumed that MRAM cells would be manufactured at metallization levels (the so-called back end). Since the transistors themselves (front end) can be made at any factory, this is an easily accessible product, it was decided not to spend money on a full-cycle factory, but to build a part of the factory that will contain only know-how for manufacturing MRAM. I note, by the way, that the equipment for the front end is much more expensive (there is just more of it there, but for the back end, in principle, you don’t need a lot). So the original model looked like this:

    Build a semi-factory (back-end only) for reasonable money

    Buy c front end wafers for little money on the world market

    Add MRAM back-end

    Sell for big money on the world market

    PROFIT!

    If MRAM technology worked, it would be a very beautiful solution. But it did not work (and not only with Crocus), and Crocus turned into a kind of suitcase without a handle.

    On the one hand, it is not a full-fledged factory, since it does not make transistors (front end), and it makes no sense to order a front end at a foreign factory and then finish it at home, it’s easier to immediately order a full cycle at a foreign factory. If they refuse you in the full cycle, then they will refuse you in half of the cycle.

    On the other hand, this is the only production facility in Russia operating on 300 mm wafers according to a 65 nm process technology, with the possibility of further upgrading to 45 nm and, perhaps, up to 32 nm.

    That is, it is a pity to kill, and it is not clear what to do next. Build up to a full factory? But this is a huge investment, and there is not much space there physically for a full factory. That is, it must be transferred. And if you transfer - isn't it easier to build from scratch then? (usually easier). And to go bankrupt - the hand does not rise.

    The annual turnover of Crocus is about a billion rubles, they themselves earned ten percent (mostly one-time orders for the deposition of magnetic materials for foreign customers - there are no Russian ones, since there are no 300 mm factories in Russia).

    As a result, after long ordeals, Rosnano sold Crocus to one large state corporation. They will make quantum computers there. Don't ask me what that means.

    New plant in Zelenograd

    Little is known about him. Wafer size 300 mm, manufacturing process 65 nm - 45 nm (First generation Intel Core i3, i5 and i7). It was planned to build it for a long time, for example, the news (of unknown date) that they should be built by 2014. The Sitronics company was going to build, but nothing intelligible can be googled. A few years ago, the government sent me a technical assignment for the plant for examination, I read it - it was written correctly, clearly written by people who knew what they were doing. According to rumors, construction is underway, with the involvement of Chinese contractors (like UMC - however, this is Taiwan). I can't say anything more. What will come of this is also not clear.

    Outcome

    On Micron, it is theoretically possible to produce something of the level of Intel Celeron / AMD Athlon 64 (90 nm manufacturing process, mid-2000s). To move on, you need a 300 mm winding, and it is not in a fully functional state.

    Is it possible to completely localize the production of microelectronics according to a modern technical process?

    Short answer: no.

    More detailed answer: Not a single country in the world will be able to localize the production of microelectronics according to the technical process of less than 90 nm. It is still possible to establish something like micron technology (contact lithography, liquid etching, manual operations) on the knee, but it will be the level of 8086/80286 or ZX Spectrum.

    Detailed response. Successful microelectronic manufacturing requires the following factors:

    Existence of a sales market

    Availability of production equipment

    Availability of competent personnel

    Availability of raw materials, materials and consumables

    Let's take a look at each aspect in more detail.

    Sales markets

    It would seem, what sales markets - if you need to do it, then you need to, regardless of the costs. The problem is that the semiconductor plant itself is just the tip of the iceberg. And regardless of the costs, you will have to saw the whole iceberg, and this is a lot of money.

    Everyone is used to the fact that semiconductor chips are very cheap. Why they are cheap, I wrote in another article. Many mistakenly believe that it is enough to put a plant in Russia and we will get the same cheap chips, only produced at home. Unfortunately, this is not so. A semiconductor factory eats up a huge amount of money, whether it produces something or not. That is, in order for one chip to be cheap, you need to divide this huge amount of money into a huge number of chips (tens of millions for a medium-sized plant). And they need to be sold somewhere. If there is nowhere to sell them (the Russian market is not so big), then the plant will incur losses, which must either be covered by the state with subsidies (then the chips will be cheap for the consumer), or by the consumers themselves (then the chips will be very expensive). I.e,

    The next layer of the iceberg is hardware. The plant needs about a dozen installations of the same type (for example, lithography, or etching), and there are dozens (if not hundreds) of such types. A manufacturer of equipment of one type is not interested in a market of ten pieces - again, either the equipment will be gold for the plant, or the equipment manufacturer should be subsidized by the state. Or there should be a lot of factories, then the equipment manufacturer has a sales market and its products become cheaper. But we don’t need many factories - we don’t know what to do with the chips with one. That is, if you want to make relatively inexpensive equipment (relatively inexpensive - this means that, for example, a photolithography installation costs about the same as a Boeing), you need to sell it all over the world.

    The next layer of the iceberg is equipment components - electronics, pumps, robots, etc. Here the same story - for tens / hundreds of pieces of equipment, many pumps are not needed, and again we run into either high cost or the need to sell on the world market.

    And the same story will be with everything else: with silicon wafers, chemicals, water treatment systems. Everything that will be unique for our production will be wildly expensive, since we will not sell it to anyone else (well, or we trade with the whole world).

    One more moment. One plant cannot produce the entire microelectronic range. That is, processors, and RAM, and flash memory, and microcontrollers and radio modems, etc. etc. do not squeeze into one plant. The production of RAM is generally a separate branch of microelectronics with separate factories, technical processes and players. At one time, the Germans tried to play this game, Infineon spun off the company Qimonda, which was supposed to be engaged in the production of RAM. Did not work out. The cost price of a memory chip produced by Qimonda was equal to the cost of a Samsung memory chip on the counter in a store. Qimonda went bankrupt.

    That is, to have a fully localized production, you need to have several factories. And somewhere to sell the products of these factories. Or keep these plants working with a minimum load. In fairness, I note that many factories will create at least some demand for equipment and raw materials.

    Let's roughly estimate how much it costs. For example, Intel is building a new plant in Germany for $17 billion. We need several factories, let's say it will be $50-60 billion. For comparison, this is defense spending in Russia in 2020. The entire ecosystem, I think, will cost at least an order of magnitude more, that is, $500-600 billion. This is already a third of GDP Russia. But such an ecosystem can cost more than an order of magnitude.

    As a result, creating and maintaining a fully localized production is VERY expensive.

    Production equipment

    Let's say we found quadruplions of money somewhere and we can afford everything. The first thing you need is equipment. I note that at the moment there is not a single country in the world that would produce all the equipment necessary for microelectronic production using technologies of 45 nm and below. Even the US, which produces the lion's share of semiconductor equipment, does not produce photolithography machines. They are produced either by the Netherlands (ASML) or Japan (Nikon, Canon). Applied Materials (USA), one of the largest (maybe the largest) equipment manufacturer, usually boasts that they can supply a full line of equipment only from their machines, but always adds: except for photolithography.

    It is very difficult to make equipment for modern semiconductor production, and it is impossible to do it yourself from scratch. There are two points here.

    Firstly, modern equipment manufacturers have come a long way in decades by improving and improving their equipment. For example, the Dutch manufacturer of photolithographic equipment, ASML, spent about 15 years to perfect the EUV installation. The first prototype was delivered to IMEC (where I was then working) in the early 2000s, and it entered the market a few years ago (I don't know yet how long it took them to make the first prototype). This is despite the fact that ASML has vast experience in the development and production of photolithography machines and their R&D budget is in the order of a billion euros per year (I think the lion's share of this budget has gone and goes to EUV).

    Secondly, modern equipment is actually a Lego constructor, in which 90% of the blocks are standard (robots, vacuum pumps, gas flow controllers, etc., etc.) and 10% is the know-how of the company, for which and spend most of the time and money in development. As far as I know, semiconductor equipment components of the required quality are not produced in Russia.

    You can, of course, try to do everything yourself - but this is just one of the reasons why our parent company Mapper Lithography went bust: they tried to do everything themselves: power supplies, RF generators, write their own software, etc. As a result, the machine worked for an hour, then broke down and was repaired for a week.

    You also need to remember that in addition to production equipment, auxiliary equipment is needed: water treatment systems (and this is not a filter to put in the kitchen), compressed air compressors, nitrogen generators, etc. etc. All this also needs to be taken somewhere, now this equipment is all imported.

    Conclusion: you can try to do something if you have access to high quality standard components, if you also make the components yourself, then in my opinion, this is impossible. Plus, what I wrote in the section about sales markets, even if you make equipment, then to whom to sell, to one plant? But, although you can try to sell to China - there are many factories there.

    Competent staff

    This seems to be the least of the problems, but there is a nuance. In principle, Russian universities graduate a sufficient number of specialists who, after several years of training, are quite capable of working in modern production. This is confirmed both by the experience of our company and by the fact that many specialists of Russian origin work in foreign semiconductor industries (I myself worked there, and I know many Russians who work).

    Now about the nuances: firstly, specialists need to be trained, home-grown specialists turn out badly, especially in the field of production culture and quality management. In my experience, quality is a headache for Russian companies. Everyone can rivet analogues in a single copy, but few people can deliver products of sustainable quality. If there is a management / leading engineers with foreign experience, it is not difficult to establish quality management, but for purely Russian companies it does not work well. Remember how I wrote above that the production management of Angstrem-T laughed at our quality management system? This is just about that. In general, foreign (either expats or Russians with foreign experience, like me) specialists can come and teach, the question is how to lure them now?

    The second nuance: as soon as process engineers become more or less experienced specialists (several years of experience in normal production), they immediately begin to look abroad. A process engineer in semiconductor production in Europe receives 3-4 thousand euros per hand (to understand the level of expenses, I will give Dresden as an example: renting a 3-room apartment 700-800 euros, food 200-250 euros per person, clothes one and a half times cheaper, than in Moscow). As a result, there is a constant drain of personnel, since process engineers are always needed abroad (although not as urgently as IT specialists), and, unfortunately, we cannot afford to pay as abroad.

    As a result, for our hypothetical plant, we must invite foreign specialists with their control technologies, and then keep our specialists from emigrating.

    Raw materials

    For the operation of the plant, we need silicon wafers, liquid chemicals (especially photoresist), gases, all small things (such as gloves, masks, tweezers, etc.). And all this is not of any quality, but of a very high degree of purification, small things compatible with clean rooms, etc. With all this, the situation in Russia is not exactly rosy. An interesting example with masks. When covid started, our supplier of masks (special for clean rooms, ordinary medical masks are not suitable there) said that they had thrown all their power into medical masks and now there will be no special ones. I had to invent reusable ones and wash them. In Russia, such masks are not produced.

    We tried to work with a domestic photoresist. Either bubbles, or debris, or it doesn’t stick to the plate. Each batch is different from the previous one, it was necessary to adjust the process parameters for a new batch each time. Came into disrepair two months before the expiration date (sometimes, and sometimes even after the expiration date was normal). In general, we played roulette for about a year, switched to American. We set up the process once and forgot about the problems. And it was a micron size photoresist. I don't know how things are with Russian photoresist on technology less than 65 nm.

    silicon wafers. There is a wonderful Russian company that produces them. The nomenclature is not very large, but there are the most popular sizes. Good quality. But, as usual, there is a nuance. The wafers are cut from imported silicon ingots, on imported equipment using imported consumables (the stock of which, as we were told for two months, there are no new deliveries yet). That is, if we want a fully localized production, we need to establish the production of ingots (for this, we also need to develop and produce equipment), the production of machines for cutting, grinding and polishing and consumables for them.

    Photomasks. In Russia, there is the production of photomasks for older technologies (definitely not for 45 nm and below), and, of course, on imported glasses and imported equipment. The production of modern photomasks is also a whole industry, there are not so many manufacturers in the world (one of the examples is AMTC in Dresden). They also need equipment, raw materials, and so on. etc.

    conclusions

    You can't just take and build a plant for the production of microelectronics. Such a plant needs a huge ecosystem (consumers (many consumers), equipment, raw materials and materials, personnel). Recently there was a translated article about such an ecosystem. Moreover, this ecosystem is very fragile, if at least one component disappears, the entire system collapses. In my opinion, it is impossible to create such an ecosystem completely isolated from the outside world.

    So, what is next?

    Short answer: I don't know.

    How could it look like? When integrating into the global microelectronic ecosystem (having the opportunity to buy equipment, raw materials and materials and the ability to sell products), choose a niche in which there is no fierce competition (as in the production of memory and processors) and try to take your share there by playing at lower labor costs and unique system solutions of intelligent local engineers. For example, in the field of RF microelectronics. As far as I know, the already mentioned Angstrem-T has (were?) Good developments in such areas, and they could be in demand in IoT, which is growing at a fairly rapid pace. Well, or some power integrated electronics. Or integrated photonics. With a couple of high-tech factories built into the global ecosystem, you can already do some things that you don’t want others to see.

    Behind the iron curtain (meaning full localization from start to finish) you can only do something like 80286 processors for a lot of money, nothing more. I think that globalization is happening because it is impossible to advance above a certain technological limit alone - no country can pull it off, only the whole world. Whether we will be a part of this world is a separate question.

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    Post  lancelot Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:31 pm

    This article provides a necessary dose of realism. And this is someone who knows the actual industry in Russia better than average joes like us can do. But I think he is overly pessimistic about the whole situation.

    From what I understand Mikron does produce chips at 90nm for example. For military chips the 200mm wafers using KrF lithography like Mikron uses will be enough.

    China has a 100% localized tool and materials chain for KrF lithography.

    China has a huge, and I mean huge production capacity for making polysilicon and cutting silicon. They are the world's largest solar cell producer. This is the basic resource. After the chip embargo the Chinese also quickly moved to ramp up production of silicon crystals for 200mm and 300mm wafers. The crystals are made with polysilicon. The Chinese also finished, like two years ago, construction of all the production facilities for all the materials used in KrF lithography to meet their own demands. Photoresist, masks, etc. Those are already produced at huge scale and have been production qualified.

    Russia proper has the largest producer in the world of sapphire crystals at Monocrystal. These are used as a substrate to make GaN chips for RF, LED, and other applications. I would not be surprised if that company could in perhaps 3 years also manufacture silicon crystals if they wanted to. And it makes sense to make silicon crystal in Russia for export. Since this is a highly energy intensive process and energy is cheaper in Russia than most of the world.

    The equipment, like I said, a company like Chinese CETC can make all the tools for KrF lithography. CETC is part of the Chinese MIC and are under sanctions themselves.

    He also seems to be overly focused on the Western tools chain since that is what he was exposed to. But Japan in the 1980s-1990s had a fully integrated chip industry. They made everything. And I mean everything. He talks about Applied Materials. Well, Tokyo Electron can make basically all the same products Applied Materials can do. And for anything up to and including ArF lithography Nikon can make those tools. Japan is a country with roughly the same population as Russia. At a certain point their silicon industry gave up because they could not compete at scale. But the point at which they gave up basically allows them to make 7nm chips with their own 100% native production chain if they wanted to. The US cannot even do that. Anyway this is kind of pointless since Japan is also sanctioning Russia.

    The Chinese are making a massive push into having a full integrated stack for semiconductors just like the Japanese did back then. They already make the wafers, a lot of the materials, and the photoresist for ArF lithography. The only thing they can't make yet is the mask material I think. But they have two companies working on this. They also already have a lot of the tools, like for CMP, CVD, etch, etc. What they lacked was inspection and lithography. Well they got inspection working recently. And they are making a massive push to get immersion lithography tools working. It is a matter of time until they get it working properly and scale production of the tools.

    Also a 200mm or even 300mm 28nm fab does not cost $20 billion. Those are modern EUV equipped facilities. And you don't need those for strategic purposes. Only for consumer grade and civilian server chips. And we are talking high end lower power chips for smartphones and high end servers here. Not industrial or military chips.

    What he said about MRAM is also not quite true. The original idea was a memory as fast as SRAM and non-volatile. It turned out you can tune the design to be either as fast as SRAM or non-volatile long term. But not both. The faster you can access it the less time it can hold the value in memory without power on. No one has solved that problem yet. And even the non-volatile one isn't as slow as Flash. It is like the same speed or 2x slower than DRAM (which is in turn much slower than SRAM). And like 5-8x faster than Flash. It is just that the chips have way less capacity than Flash. And now that Flash has gone 3D with V-NAND the much lower cost per bit it has means MRAM is only useful for niche applications. Curiously that niche is basically automotive, rad-hard, industrial, space, and military grade electronics. So no, it isn't dead at all.

    Also had his top level company in the Netherlands, Mapper LLC, actually managed to do what they tried to they would have broken the monopoly of these lithography companies for high end low volume chip production. They failed before the money ran out but I think it was a valiant effort. The fact ASML then picked the pieces for peanuts and are going to use the technology for inspection probably means it isn't totally worthless at all. It just can't compete at large scale. But to make a hundred or two hundred chips a year for combat aircraft, does that really matter?

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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:03 am

    There is no information about the state of Russian semiconductor industry after 2014/15.

    I think they went dark to avoid any sabotage by the USA.


    They don't advertise the capabilities ,suppliers and products any more.


    Like in the old times.

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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:27 am

    Edit: I got to be less mean.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  lancelot Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:16 am

    I know I did read something about Angstrem-T not that long ago. That the previous owner went bankrupt and it changed owner. That the new owner was getting it working again. So I expect they did do something. But I don't know what they are actually producing right now.

    http://rapsinews.com/judicial_news/20191028/304952701.html
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-sanctions-technology-exclu-idUSKCN1MR1LF
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:39 am

    lancelot wrote:I know I did read something about Angstrem-T not that long ago. That the previous owner went bankrupt and it changed owner. That the new owner was getting it working again. So I expect they did do something. But I don't know what they are actually producing right now.

    http://rapsinews.com/judicial_news/20191028/304952701.html
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-sanctions-technology-exclu-idUSKCN1MR1LF

    It is owned by VTB bank. Whatever is going on is going on. Other FABS exist within Russia making chips of various degrees. I dont feel like repeating myself for the 100th time so I suggest people just go back and read the thread.

    Angstrem-T is by all accounts doing nothing. VTB isn't doing squat with it. And the others aren't interested in using it either as it isn't under their ownership.
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    Post  kvs Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:51 am

    The fixation on 200 mm vs 300 mm makes me think less of the author of that piece. It makes it sound like the lithographic equipment
    is hardwired and unchangeable by any Russian company. This is BS. Of all aspects of lithography, the damned projection geometry
    is not the show stopper. For the high resolution (13.5 nm wavelength) lithography it is more of a problem but nothing that Russian
    companies could not address. The 200 vs 300 aspect is all about total yield and economies of scale. Also, 300 mm is less reliable
    since there are more wafer defects for larger wafers.

    Mikron developed its own 65 nm lithography using adapted western equipment. That is the information I have. It may be wrong,
    but when I hear a defeatist whine from "insiders" and "experts" I have no reason to trust their analysis. There are a lot of NATzO
    sycophants in Russia whose opinions get an extraordinary amount of attention. More sane individuals never get the exposure.
    Do not trust Russian media sources. They are riddled with 5th columnists.

    If IC manufacturing is a national security issue for Russia, the you can bet your last kopek that it has been on the agenda for
    years and years. Lack of PR fluff does not prove lack of progress.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Mar 30, 2022 4:38 am

    kvs wrote:T  That is the information I have.   It may be wrong,
    but when I hear a defeatist whine from "insiders" and "experts" I have no reason to trust their analysis.  There are a lot of NATzO
    sycophants in Russia whose opinions get an extraordinary amount of attention.   More sane individuals never get the exposure.  
    Do not trust Russian media sources.   They are riddled with 5th columnists.    



    Sometimes they are just useful idiots believing in "an invisible market hand" (usually twisting sidelocks in Brooklyn) and that you have to be competitive in "the world market" (which reads: where US lets you in) .  But true this are the wors kind of Vth column. IMHO People who are working for money is easier detect/convince then ideological idiots. Perhaps except  uranium  Magadan's  vacations.


    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors - Page 27 O3L7





    From the other hand if you read some comments it looks there are some constructive posts :





    1)

    rubir_ru
    2022-03-27 05:58 pm (UTC)

    .
    ..the dude doesn't know. Well, ok, then I will help him a little and clarify a few points:
    1. If you don’t know something, then you need to have an outrageous self-conceit in order to leave such an article to posterity. To show them your professional impotence?
    2. What the author does not know, we found out. What exactly does he not know? Well, for example, the fact that the world is clustered. One of the consequences of clustering is, alas, the loss of the most advanced technologies - they simply become unprofitable for those new market volumes that will be. In other words, you can forget about 3-7nm now and for a long time. Everyone.
    3. As a consequence 2. we have that we are interested in the range of 10-30 nm. Bingo. There are 17 such factories in Taiwan.
    4. It would seem. What's with Taiwan. And Taiwan is here despite the fact that China does not need 17 factories, see paragraph 2.
    5. And then, bah! There are superfluous factories, and equipment for them, and personnel, and even consumables in the vicinity of great China.
    6. Well, about the economy. It's one thing when you have world prices for raw materials and energy around you, and another thing when you don't have a WTO, and inside due to export duties, ruble prices for raw materials and energy are much lower than world prices. Opa, and the cost price immediately requires not millions, but only hundreds of thousands of products for profitability, and if not enough, then you can cooperate and sell-buy counter with China and India, at the level of acceptable specialization.
    7. And finally, the author might wish to think more not about the attention of descendants, but about specific current tasks and ways to solve them instead of excuses why they are “impossible” to solve


    2)
    pavel_ladikov
    2022-03-27 07:26 pm (UTC)

    I
    n order not to waste a lot of words, you need to discuss the most important things.
    We do not have the development and production of equipment for superimposed ultraviolet lithography. Those notorious 9-13 nm.
    Everything else is treated, it is not treated. Or treated by decades of hard work.

    The colonel was fond of sports, today we are reaping the benefits. In my city of 300,000, stadiums were built, including forty thousand. It all eats money and it is not clear to whom and why it is necessary. But at the same time, ten factories of radio-electronic specialization died in my city.

    What to do? Actually, we have two ways:
    1. Hoping for China and the fact that it will be able to defend the technologies received from the West - and in the meantime, dig ultra-deep ultraviolet in an accelerated manner.
    2. Look for new breakthrough directions in microelectronic digital technologies, possibly in the direction of optical computing - and try to go around the west on this fucking goat.


    Sponsored content


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