Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

The VLIW elbrus CPU can be rendered effectively on a 65 nm process. It does not require the enormous amount of transistors that
RISC with a CISC front-end and out-of-order, implicitly parallel x86 CPUs employ. The elbrus offloads the optimization onto the compiler
and saves precious IC real estate. This is the reason that the elbrus has such a low power draw. I think that it is not an accident
that Russia has pursued a VLIW architecture given its fabrication limitations.

Russia can achieve 28 nm without absurd levels of effort. This process size manufacturing capability is almost happening by inertia. This
resolution can be used to produce 8 core elbrus CPUs. But Russia is investing in extreme EUV lithography so it will be able to achieve
14 nm. In my opinion within the next 10 years. That is 8 x 4 = 32 cores if 28 nm gives 4 x 2 cores.

The wafer size is about production volume. This is not a priority for Russia. Producing lower defect 200 mm wafers is good enough.

lancelot wrote:The sanctions only apply to things with Western content in them. In a couple of years China will have commercial fabs with 100% Chinese production tools and equipment in them.

Even today the Chinese government already has sanctions proof semiconductor production facilities using equipment made and operated by CETC which can make chips at 90nm or better. Those Chinese production facilities do not operate in the commercial market but are part of the Chinese MIC. I told that here before.

China has had sanctions on purchasing military grade equipment and components from the West since the Tienanmen Square incident in 1989. How do you think they make the chips for AESA radars and the avionics in their fighter aircraft? Russia's MIC only got similar sanctions after annexation of Crimea in 2014. So how come the Chinese have AESA radar on their aircraft and thermal sights on their tanks? They surely are not importing them.

The Chinese commercial sector is currently the market leader in security cameras and they are quickly moving towards dominance of the commercial camera sensor sector as well. Why do you think the US slapped sanctions on Hikvision, a commercial CETC subsidiary, and yet made a carveout so their own MIC can continue purchasing Hikvision equipment?

And sorry, but a more complex chip tends to be slower, not faster. So how come the Elbrus-2C+ has the same CPU cores, with extra DSP cores, and is faster? 500 MHz vs 300 MHz. It is quite simple. The 90nm process at TSMC is better than the one Mikron uses which they got from STMicro.

As for Russia making its own lithography equipment, it takes more than lithography equipment to make chips. The Chinese have been at this for over a decade already. Probably close to two. And you think the Russian industry will solve all those problems in less than a decade? I think you are being overly optimistic. The current plan only seems to be focused on lithography to begin with. What about making masks, and all that other crap? You need like a dozen different types of machine tools just on the main production line of a semiconductor fab. That is ignoring all the equipment you will need to make the materials to operate the fab.

Russia also has a longer knowledge in the industry than China dating back to Soviet era where they made the equipment and implementation.  Funny thing is, a huge portion of Planar is still the old guard who were there during those days.  Maybe too old but still they carry important knowledge.

They will do it. I heard same stuff you said about nearly every sector of russias industry for last 20 years. CNC machines being the biggest example (and all proven wrong).  This is also why they are aiming at 180nm to 28 first as 65nm and up they are already familiar with with current production. Maybe they will be forced to reverse engineer the equipment they got now so be it.

China won't be building Russian cpus. I'm sorry. We already heard about it.  Maybe they can though get something out of Huawei since they operate in Russia and China and are sanctioned themselves.  Only other way is if China gets heavily sanctioned themselves which forces hands of these internal industries to move to Russian market.

I agree with KVS here and time will tell.  But as there is a saying "buy on the rumors and sell on the news", the rumors are China, the news state Russian production.  So in this regard, we are already getting the word.

In the end, Russia will rely on Grey market for its gpus and consumer cpus while they will concentrate on domestic production needs.  This is so far what the news is saying.

The free market in the west is an absurd myth. All the large economic decisions are made by a few players. The oligarchy and their
government puppets. Fools around the world have to learn this the hard way when they import the BS ideology from the west.

For Russia, communism was a western import. It had to lose a lot of blood and treasure to make this crap work. In the end it was
sabotaged from within and the whole experiment was an epic waste. The rotten ex-commies imported another ideology from the
west and sent Russia into the toilet in the 1990s. But thank God there were enough professionals in the system who threw this
crap out after 1998.

Thanks to the legacy of the 1990s, Russia has not made correct decisions about IC manufacturing. It was still following the retarded
market forces model in the 2010s. It should have been bootstrapping high resolution lithography from the 2000s in a big way. BTW,
China has the right approach in this regard.

Russia is playing fair when it comes to noble gases. Sanctions are a two way street and Russia is not engaged in blackmail by
responding. I can't believe that such BS is even being raised in this thread. In the case of Taiwan, Russia recognizes
only China and will continue to supply China with Neon, etc. Taiwan can then go and get the gases from China. It is not Russia's
problem that they are uncomfortable and that it does not jive with the wishes of their owners in Washington.

http://www.mcst.ru/doc/syrcose11_submission_16.pdf

The binary translators used on the Elbrus are more advanced than Digital's FX32 and Apple's Rosetta.   In particular, the Lintel translator
floats any x86 based OS and applications.    The Digital and Apple products are application level translators.  

However, the basic issue remains that native compilation of programs is the best for performance.   Elbrus can stick with HPC and engineering and
science target uses.   Fretting over application binaries is for generic consumers.   May as well use Chinese x86 clones for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaoxin

China clearly has the correct approach.

kvs wrote:http://www.mcst.ru/doc/syrcose11_submission_16.pdf

The binary translators used on the Elbrus are more advanced than Digital's FX32 and Apple's Rosetta.   In particular, the Lintel translator
floats any x86 based OS and applications.    The Digital and Apple products are application level translators.  

However, the basic issue remains that native compilation of programs is the best for performance.   Elbrus can stick with HPC and engineering and
science target uses.   Fretting over application binaries is for generic consumers.   May as well use Chinese x86 clones for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhaoxin

China clearly has the correct approach.

Nothing prevents Russia from doing their own x86. I mean, they can reverse engineer, not like it wasnt done before.

Maybe not modern FAB's but is x86 necessary? Hell, so many are now moving to ARM or RISC based CPU's. x86 still dominates servers I know, but in Russia I would wager that simply Elbrus E2K architecture is good enough for HTC environment.

Some bigger news then:

Ministry of Digital Resources: The authorities will provide large amounts of money to support Russian developers of RISC-V processors

During an open interview at the industry conference "CNews FORUM Cases 2022", the head of the Ministry of Digital Development Maksut Shadayev expressed confidence that the state will soon allocate a serious budget to support domestic processor developments based on the open RISC-V architecture. According to the minister, Russian software developers will soon have to take care of compatibility with them.

RISC-V as a priority
The Russian authorities will provide serious financial support to developers of processors based on the RISC-V architecture. Confidence in this was expressed by the head of the Ministry of Digital DevelopmentMaksut Shadayev, during an open interview with the Editor-in-Chief of CNewsAlexandra Kiryanova at the industry conference "CNews FORUM Cases" held on June 7, 2022.

"I think that now the main efforts will be focused on designing and developing our own processor based on an open architecture, I think this will be a priority," he said.

At the same time, the minister added that in the near future, Russian software companies will be focused by the authorities on ensuring compatibility of their products with promising processor developments based on RISC-V. "Of course, it is a step-by-step process; this is not a one-time process," Shadaev stressed.

Discussing this topic, the minister answered the question of whether it is possible to expect legislative relief for assemblers and developers of Russian hardware in terms of their free use of foreign chips. (Since 2021, the Ministry of Digital Development is engaged in ensuring and generating demand for domestic civil radio-electronic products.)

Recall that at the moment, government agencies and partly companies with state participation are required to buy only Russian IT equipment. And to be considered Russian "hardware", according to the current rules Storage systems should be built on domestic processors from January 1, 2021. From July 1, 2021 — laptops, tablets and pocket PCs (including those that combine the functions of a mobile phone) and electronic notebooks. Starting from January 1, 2022, domestic processors were supposed to appear in servers, desktop PCs and monoblocks, input or output devices, monitors and projectors, printers, scanners and faxes, as well as solid-state drives and motherboards.

The Ministry of Industry and Trade in the second half of 2021, due to the introduction of the so-called point system for assessing the level of "Russianness" of equipment, planned to move these deadlines, but none of the versions of the legislative amendments developed by it has yet been adopted.

After February 24, 2022, the market situation has developed in such a way that Western chips (Intel, AMD, etc.) in the near future will theoretically be available through parallel imports (deliveries to Russia without the consent of the copyright holders), while the availability of Russian chips is completely uncertain. All our processor developments were focused on direct production at TSMC's Taiwan factory, which at the end of February 2022, in the context of Western sanctions, completely stopped production and supply of its products to our country.

Russia currently does not have its own small-nanometer production facilities. Transferring the production of our chips from TSMC to friendly countries is a long process, and for some architectures it is very dubious. Many domestic developments are built on the licensed ARM architecture, which means they are sanctioned vulnerable.

RISC-V Features

The open-source RISC-V instruction set architecture is highly attractive in the world due to the lack of license fees that are traditional when using most other processor architectures, including the aforementioned ARM.

RISC-V is supported and developed by the non-profit organization RISC-V International, which has more than 1,000 members in 50 countries. RISC-V processors are widely used in microcontrollers. For example, Western Digital supplies more than 2 billion RISC-V controllers in its storage devices every year.

Who is involved in RISC-V in Russia

At the moment, at least two Russian companies have managed to make certain steps towards developing chips based on the RISC-V architecture. One of them is Baikal Electronics, the developer of the Baikal processor line. In September 2021, its parent company, the Warton Group, acquired a 34% stake in Cloudbear, a St. Petersburg-based developer of microprocessor cores. It is considered one of the two most advanced companies in Russia that develop processor IP blocks based on the RISC-V command system.

Baikal Electronics announced its interest in RISC-V in early July 2021, commenting on its new product strategy approved by the Board of Directors in June 2021.

Another Russian company developing open architecture is KNS Group, which is part of X Holding and produces computing equipment under its own Yadro brand. Since the end of October 2019, KNS Group has owned 51% of Syntacore — the second most well-known domestic developer of processor IP blocks based on the RISC-V command system.

Syntacore, like Cloudbear, is based in St. Petersburg and is also a resident of Skolkovo (through a subsidiary). Both companies are well-known both in Russia and abroad.

In the summer of 2021, CNews learned that KNS Group is going to release a line of processors of its own architecture, in which about 6 billion rubles of company funds will be invested. When developing its own processor architecture, it was going to use RISC-V.

Source: https://www.cnews.ru/news/top/2022-06-10_mintsifry_vlasti_krupno_podderzhat

This article I want to point out to the attention of Lancelot:

https://www.cnews.ru/news/top/2022-06-09_huawei_vtajne_vvel_antirossijskie

Huawei secretly imposed anti-Russian sanctions. The company's stores in Russia began to close one by one

This is why I said Russia cannot and will not use China as a destination for technology. Chinese companies, even if sanctioned themselves, are reluctant to work in Russia. While I figure Russia should bring this to the attention of the Chinese authorities, I doubt much will be resolved. Hence why Russia needs to build its own tech and not rely on partners like China which are not reliable.

lancelot wrote:Huawei is under US sanctions in the entity list. They cannot ask TSMC to manufacture their chip designs that used to power their smartphones anymore. In addition any Western electronics they want to order have to be explicitly vetted and approved by the US government on a case by case basis. They are basically being forced to buy chips from Qualcomm and other US companies. To the point the US didn't even let them buy 5G modems, only 4G ones. This when Huawei spent hundreds of millions designing their own chips which they can't manufacture anymore because they were made for fabrication at TSMC. So my guess is Huawei just closed the stores for consumer products but probably maintain support for telecoms equipment. Mind you those Qualcomm chips are also made at TSMC in Taiwan or Samsung in South Korea.

I know Huawei did not close their R&D facilities in Russia. Those continue to operate. This is unlike what Western companies did. Eventually the Chinese will have their own sanctions proof commercial fabrication facilities. But like I said now is not the time.

If Russia wants to get Chinese help with chips, it will have to work with their MIC and companies like CETC.

Judging how the ministry of industry and trade are putting money towards thr equipment needed to produce the chips at home goes against what you think what will happen. And while the Chinese state and people are on russias side, the companies are not.  So no company in China will risk making chips and selling to Russia over the lucrative market that is the west at current market.

Things may change in the future and Russia can split production between domestic and China. Until then, it won't happen.

Russian customs is already making a large order for Russian made CPU's and requirements are 4 cores minimum and 1.1Ghz min speed (odd requirements but whatever). Of course it will be using older lithography tech but if it works it works. There is a limit to the need of newer chips and I mentioned an example prior.

caveat emptor wrote:

lancelot wrote:
With the case of chips, the problem is not anything to do with Western customers for their product, but the fact any such Chinese company will likely be using Western supplied tools and materials, and that supply can be cut and kill the company basically. Which is why the Chinese are working on their own tools and materials. They already have 100% Chinese i-line and KrF tools and materials. This is the same level of equipment as the one Mikron and Angstrem-T operates which can work up to 90nm. You should see this happen for ArF at 28nm and lower over the next two years. Then it is the matter of getting it all operating in one fab smoothly and making a Western sanctions proof production line.

As for that requirement you mentioned, it should be easy to achieve with production of the MCST R-1000 processor at Mikron or Angstrem-T if they want to. It was originally designed for TSMC 90nm process. But it has roughly those specifications and can likely be easily ported over. Another option would be making a RISC-V processor design of similar specification.

And guess what there is no way the Russian semi fabs will be operating without Chinese supplied materials. Since Russian industry currently cannot even manufacture 200mm wafers of required quality. Only smaller ones for older processes. China has several such suppliers. Some can do silicon wafers up to 450mm size. Photoresist, same deal, several Chinese companies can make KrF photoresist. None that I know of in Russia. Russia was importing all this crap from Europe and now it is all sanctioned and banned. Good luck trying to make omelets without eggs. This is the problem the Chinese have been facing for a long time already.

What is the deal with 65 nm process, as I've read that Mikron should be able to make those chips, as well, now?

They can. It's the matter of in how large of batches can they make them. We don't actually know. For all we know they can produce all of Russian needs.

Since the sanctions won't go away, it will be in russias interest to produce everything they need for the chip production. I don't see China filling the need besides either black market supply of older chips or selling their own made processors. But for Russian made stuff, it will require 100% Russian made tooling and supplies as China is refusing so far regardless what some people may think. It's news vs opinions at this point.

It has been pointed out that by Russian mil standards they are at or near 100% self sufficiency in supplies to production of IC. Roscosmos, rosatom, and rostec are suppliers and producers. Since their equipment and resources aren't sold outside, I doubt we will learn much as most is hush hush and shit advertising. None of us here are in the industry or have contacts within these organizations so it's all pure speculation.