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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    TR1
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:54 pm

    Nikander wrote:
    http://t.co/UdCyaGaIj6

    Voentorg

    Voentorg?!?

    Those are T-80Us....do you know who operates the T-80U in Russia?

    A certain elite division (brigade now I guess).
    d_taddei2
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty reply

    Post  d_taddei2 Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:36 am

    read the following today

    Armed Forces of Ukraine actively restore self-propelled artillery 2S7 Pion. Current repair overhaul with elements of individual components (recoil device, hydraulic system, loading mechanism) 203-mm self-propelled guns must implement State Enterprise "Shepetovsky Repair Plant" and remzavod in Rivne.

    2S7 Pion - a self-propelled howitzer, designed to suppress the rear, the destruction of critical facilities and offensive nuclear weapons in tactical depth at a distance of 47 km. SAU Peony notable for the fact that can fire nuclear warheads.

    http://news.liga.net/video/politics/3999522-ukraina_vozvrashchaet_na_vooruzhenie_moshchneyshie_sau_pion_video.htm


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional info)
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    Post  Vann7 Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:50 am

    Any one with real knowledge i have 2 questions..

    1)Can Ukraine produce and build 2S7 Pion artillery? or theirs are only adquired after soviet collapse?

    2)how about Toschka-U missiles ?
    They have near 100 of them.. before the war.. wondering if they have the capabilities of mass produce them..?
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    Post  kvs Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:41 am

    Vann7 wrote:Any one with real knowledge i have 2 questions..

    1)Can Ukraine produce and build 2S7 Pion artillery?  or theirs are only adquired after soviet collapse?

    2)how about Toschka-U missiles ?
    They have near 100 of them.. before the war.. wondering if they have the capabilities of mass produce them..?

    They cannot assemble either. There is no doubt about this. The collapse of the Ukrainian military industry is shocking.
    They can't even put together a good number of Oplot tanks. The 203 mm 2A44 gun was only produced in Volgograd by
    the "Barricady" combine. It has not been manufactured since the 1980s. So, no chance for the Ukr regime to make it.

    The Tochka-U missiles were produced by "PETM" (Petropavlovsk Plant of Heavy Machine Building) in Kazakhstan:

    http://www.pztm.kz/eng/index.php?id=History

    So no chance Ukraine is going to manufacture any more of these. I don't think Kazakhstan will sell them any.
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    Post  Regular Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:04 am

    I know it's offtopic, but does not having full available load of ammo make tank less capable then say it's counterpart with full load? MBT are expected to provide fire and engage any target on battlefield. Having low ammo would onky work in low intensity warfare.
    By the way had chance to speak with quite a few ex tankists on russian forums and they shrugged idea keeping all the ammo in AL.
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    Post  Vann7 Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:09 am

    Oh wow.. the next video will put an end to the controversy about the Airport.. just as
    expected Kiev have been lying all the time.. to fool the ukies into entering the airport into
    a suicide mission. hundreds of ukrainians died trying to capture the airport.. and some few surrender and they interviewed..  Amazing Report!!! by life news...





    Zakharchenko interviews captive UAF soldiers on his presser 20/1/15




    and here TSAREV claims there is information about a new coup happening in Kiev..
    apparently sponsored again by USA.. to remove porosehnko from power..

    Oleg Tsarev: Deputies are evacuating families ahead of the upcoming coup in Kiev




    "Moreover, the situation became much worse, and under conditions of full-scale hostilities in the South-East, the growing discontent of the population of Ukraine whose social benefits were cut, someone must be held responsible for it. The role of the "sacrificial lamb" was given to Petro Poroshenko".

    According to available information, the structures close to Turchinov and Yatsenyuk, with direct support from the U.S. State Department are organizing "Narodnoye Veche" ("Popular Assembly"), which will gather at the initiative of the Council of Maidan. During the Assembly a vote of no confidence will be given to the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.

    Oleg Tsarev:

    "All this is confirmed by the fact that after the holidays on the initiative of the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine an all-Ukrainian protest is planned in Kiev at the building of the Verkhovnaya Rada and the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine.

    The organizers intend to remind the President and the government of Ukraine on the need to observe the pre-election promises to reform the socio-political and economic spheres, raising the standard of living of citizens in the country, and the like. The protesters will demand increased wages and compliance with the terms of collective agreements at industrial enterprises and institutions of Ukraine.

    His interest in joining this protest was expressed by Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, who is trying to use it against Poroshenko. To this end, he instructed his supporters from the People's Front, using the capabilities of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Avakov, to meet with leaders of trade unions and to agree on the future direction of the protest.

    To counteract the intentions of the leadership of the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine to picket the presidential administration, the Cabinet of Ministers and the Verkhovnaya Rada, the Minister of the Interior Avakov instructed to establish control over the activities of the heads of the Federation of trade unions, and, primarily, Chairman Drapyaty and his Deputy Saenkom, including, by visual surveillance and listening to phones.

    Poroshenko was not smeared with the blood of Maidan, he did not participate in deciding to murder people so that Maidan would receive its sacrificial victims. During the Maidan he spent much more time in the administration of President Yanukovych, than on the square. In particular, he climbed on a tractor with an attempt to stop the coming protesters at the request of one of the most influential people close to Yanukovych.

    Poroshenko turned out to be too independent, having, as a former Minister of Foreign Affairs, many personal contacts abroad. He is not as obedient as the Western curators would like him to be. His peaceful rhetoric is caused by pragmatic interests. In the case of a military scenario the influence of the military battalions, coordinated by Avakov, Kolomoisky and others, will increase, which will contribute to the weakening of Poroshenko's power. Moreover, it is clear that Ukraine will lose the war. As has happened before in history, the US can easily dump "the contractor". Let me remind you, war crimes have no statute of limitation. In addition, in Russia Poroshenko successfully operates a chocolate factory, which suggests that he has good connections in Moscow. All this can not please the Americans.

    Whether the third Maidan will be successful, time will tell. In the meantime my friends from the Parliament are taking their families out of Ukraine in anticipation of disturbing events.


    http://fortruss.blogspot.se/2015/01/oleg-tsarev-deputies-are-evacuating.html

    So there you see.. TR1's lovely USA is planning ANOTHER Coup in ukraine.. because Poroshenko
    is too moderate and not as obedient and inconditional as anglozionist powers want him to be..

    If that happens.. it will be a HUGE opportunity for the disbanding of Ukraine... for Kharkiv to split and Rebels finally take mariupol without a fight.. and ODessa to split too..
    The major thing have me worried.. is The Criminal States of North America and its federal agencies could start false flags in Ukraine non stop ,blaming Russia. for it.. The major proble however is that if Poroshenko is removed ,the fanatics Right Sector will come to full power and will be ready to start a reign of terror in Ukraine.. much more than we have seen and with them of power , they for sure will attack Crimea to get Russia to invade ukraine... I have been saying this many times..  will repeat again..   Pay attention to Ukraine nuclear reactors... specially the ones closer to Donetsk.. and unexpected "accident". Later don't say you weren't told..  Anglozionist are so predictable.. that you can guess without much trouble what will next move will be.. they will not mind a false flag attack to blow up one of the nuclear reactors in Ukraine  to damage Donetsk territory and Crimea with radiation.

    Is an economic war against Russia and Obama and its Republican senate will try to use Ukraine
    as much as possible to slow Russia economy and split Russia from Europe.. So attacks on Crimea and Sochi to sabotage its tourism but also on nuclear reactors.. and or , attacks on Russia territory to force Russia to invade.. Russia needs to ironically try to avoid such coup against Poroshenko to happen.. because with Right Sector in full power it will be absolutely impossible for Russia to have ever any peace in their borders.

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    Post  kvs Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:43 am

    http://hubs.com.ua/news/mariupol-otrezali-ot-ukrainy.html

    Rail link to Mariupol from Kiev regime controlled territory has been sabotaged. A train with 20 cars carrying iron ore was
    derailed by an explosion.

    Vive la resistance!
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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:28 am

    It is said that Kyiv regime has lost about 500 square km into Novorossiya fighters. Ukie Foreign Ministry spokesman Yevhen Perebiynis confirmed that info.

    http://v7news.com/kiev-announced-loss-of-control-over-the-territory-of-500-square-kilometers/

    U-ra ! Novorossiya !

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 10933992_388365631335853_6968344615652458586_n

    Bonus pic: Russia is isolated by "the world"

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 1970623_423745821110672_3226416152366153411_n
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    Post  Regular Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:52 am

    Why Finland and Georgia is in blue? Afaik they didn't isolate Russia
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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:11 am

    Regular wrote:Why Finland and Georgia is in blue? Afaik they didn't isolate Russia

    Nobody dares to isolate Russia... because they buy and sell a lot of things with Russia.

    For example Russian aerospace rocket engines are still being sold to the West.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:26 am

    I know it's offtopic, but does not having full available load of ammo make tank less capable then say it's counterpart with full load? MBT are expected to provide fire and engage any target on battlefield. Having low ammo would onky work in low intensity warfare.
    By the way had chance to speak with quite a few ex tankists on russian forums and they shrugged idea keeping all the ammo in AL.

    Probably not as much as you might think... most Russian divisions have heavy direct fire capability with BMP-3 and BMP-1 vehicles with large calibre weapons, so likely the ammo removed from the MBTs would be the HE frag rounds... leaving a mix of perhaps 8 APFSDS rounds and 12 HEAT rounds and perhaps 2 missile rounds for long range point targets.


    Edit:

    Why is New Zealand in Blue... we are still trading with Russia.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:28 am

    Can you point to something that states the shield over the MZ had anything to do with protection, and not with auto-loader mechanics? I am not aware of it.

    Your argument is based on weak logic. An AK is very reliable... does that mean the dust cover on the rear receiver and the safety bar designed to fully enclose the mechanism and stop the entry of dirt and snow and ice was not intended to protect the mechanism from things dropped onto the rifle?

    the plate on top of the autoloader is to stop material of all types falling into the mechanism... including the gunners and commanders feet and fingers.

    the fact that it also stops hot fragments from easily coming into contact with highly flammable propellent stubs may or may not have been by design, but that is the advantage of designing something second... you can look at potential problems in the design and avoid them.

    Clearly ammo load is considered more important than post-penetration safety in most scenarios.

    Which is a call to be made by the crew of the tank, but hardly a design fault of the vehicle.

    We are talking about the safety of tanks, your claim is that there is little practical difference between the three Soviet tanks.

    You already claimed the T-72 was no safer than other models because of experience in the Ukraine and georgia, now you say they ignored tactics developed to improve their safety... doesn't that negate the usefulness of the results?

    If Abrams tanks were used but because of their fuel guzzling engines they had to tow large fuel trailers and had several fuel drums on their rear decks and in combat when those fuel tanks are hit and the vehicle burns would you therefore argue that the Abrams is vulnerable and dangerous to its crew?

    Sorry, lets not bring up American tanks... make that T-80Us.

    As we discussed, when carrying full ammo load it makes no difference in either vehicle. When carrying ammo in just AZ or MZ, yes the T-72s is less vulnerable- but the difference is not massive. See T-80 and T-72 in Chechnya. Fron the front the turret is unlikely to be penetrated by RPGs in any case, so there AZ or MZ makes little difference. From the sides both are vulnerable as hell to hull hits.

    When fired at from the side even an Abrams is in trouble as its turret bustle is an easy target and the detonation of all that ammo would mean the crew would not survive.

    the fact of the matter is that RPGs are not that accurate and hitting the ammo is actually rather not that likely.

    That is a myth. Russian combat experience in Chechnya (in terms of armor) was analogous for both T-80 and T-72. The myth of ammo storage had nothing to do with T-80 being withdrawn.

    Ammo storage had everything to do with the T-80 being withdrawn... the low crew survival rate is the actual factor.

    Why could T-80s not do the same? If they stayed in theater.....they would have. And btw, far from all T-72 crews operated like this.

    Even if they had the risk of penetration and hot fragments on combustable cardboard propellent stubs meant it would not make any difference whether they had 20 or 40 rounds on board except for the total energy of the explosion.

    Yes, but we have one example of the Russian army using both types in combat (Chechnya). The Army and experience personell said the T-80 did about as well as the T-72. That is all we really have for comparison. In Donbass, T-64s have done poorly but they have been hit by all sorts of weaponry so making a good analysis will be hard for some time. T-72s have popped their turrets as well, in fact in large numbers out of all losses. So what does that say?

    Sounds like you are already making conclusions when your own information says it is too early to make a conclusion...

    I expect unless the final conclusion suits your position we will never hear it... Razz

    Vehicles pop their turrets when their own ammo goes off... extra ammo stored in the crew compartment and direct hits on ammo are the only causes of this effect immediately after a hit.

    We have gone over many times the arrangement of ammo in the T-64 and T-80 are flawed.

    If you can't accept that, then that is fine. Putin didn't design the T-72 BTW.

    Obviously, and that applies to both T-64 and T-72 and T-80 now doesn't it? At the end of the day you have absolutely no scientific analysis for AZ auto-loaders being triggered significantly more in combat than analogous T-72 tanks.

    We have the fact that during the first chechen conflict several tanks were lost and in the second rather fewer were lost, where in the second conflict only autoloaders were loaded...

    Of course another factor would be the use of real ERA with explosive blocks fitted in the second conflict, but descriptions of multiple hits suggest better survivability too.

    Possible. Or it hits the autoloader and detonates the whole thing and kills the crew instantly. Everything is possible in the chaos of combat. Generally it takes some times yes. Taking only 22 rounds is a pretty crappy fact though.

    Most tanks have to refuel and rearm during combat... it is not really that big a deal to only have 22 rounds of main gun ammo.


    They did. It was made in Ukraine, before the USSR collapsed, so was a non-option for Russia. Taking T-90 was cheaper and easier

    I know about the T-80UD. Taking the T-72 would have been even cheaper and even easier.

    they tested the T-90 vs the T-80 and decided the T-90 was better.

    A choice that had nothing to do with auto-loaders.

    Hahaha... yes of course... they just picked the Russian tank... duh... and that is why you hate it so much.

    The strange thing is that they have picked the T-72 this time around over the T-90AM... most likely on cost grounds so it clearly must be a death trap.... Twisted Evil

    I mean spending billions on all new armoured vehicles that separate crews from ammo and fuel only to temporarily put crews in tanks surrounded by live ammo... jocolor
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    Post  higurashihougi Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:46 pm

    It is said that Porkie is not welcomed in Switzerland...

    http://v7news.com/students-in-zurich-booed-poroshenko/

    http://rt.com/news/224467-poroshenko-zurich-university-speech/

    http://www.uacrisis.com/students-in-zurich-confronted-poroshenko-over-his-cynicism/

    http://novorossia.today/students-held-the-demonstration-against-speech-of-petr-poroshenko-in-the-local-university-of-zurich/
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    Post  Vann7 Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:08 pm



    actually all nations are trading with Russia.. Even USA.. so this Isolation thing is exaggerated beyond proportions.
    What US and Europe did was cut western banks support for Russia and sanctions on technology for energy.. which in real practice are not being followed. What really damaged Russia was not the sanctions per se.. but the attack on oil prices and the attack on the ruble... plus luring away many western investors from Russia..

    Russia will recover in a year or two.. and it will be in the long term US the one who will experience
    more pain.. because BRICS moving away of trading with dollars between them.. will significantly lower
    the value of dollar. aside that low oil prices in damaging many shale oil business. with companies already bankrupt..they are not making any profits and actually losing money.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:15 pm

    Any update on the Ukro front?

    Are the Orks still storming the walls?
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    Post  Kimppis Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:31 pm

    Regular wrote:Why Finland and Georgia is in blue? Afaik they didn't isolate Russia

    I think "we" voted against Mordor's (led by the devil Putler) evil annexation of Crimea.

    And that is an excellent pic. It's interesting how the mainstream media potrays Russia's relations with countries outside the west here in Finland, or anywhere in the west for that matter. BRICS? What's that?
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    Post  Werewolf Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:53 pm

    Kimppis wrote:
    Regular wrote:Why Finland and Georgia is in blue? Afaik they didn't isolate Russia

    I think "we" voted against Mordor's (led by the devil Putler) evil annexation of Crimea.

    And that is an excellent pic. It's interesting how the mainstream media potrays Russia's relations with countries outside the west here in Finland, or anywhere in the west for that matter. BRICS? What's that?

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Jlfwqtck
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:54 pm

    +1 werewolf thumbsup
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    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:56 pm

    January 21 Frontline Update
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 HRlrkrT281M

    1/21/2015


    Brief Summary of Important Developments. Colonel Cassad.

    Translated from Russian by J.Hawk

    No change in the vicinity of the airport. Avdeevka and the air defense unit garrison north of the runway are controlled by the junta, most of Peski are under our control. There will be an effort to fully clear Peski today which will probably be followed by a push to eject the junta from Avdeevka.

    Our movement toward Mariupol had stopped. Artillery is at work right now, creating preconditions for further movement. Enemy artillery fire had grown over the last day. The enemy in the city itself is somewhat demoralized, since the junta is worrying about a powerful assault by our forces on this direction without guarantees it can repel that assault.

    The front in the vicinity of the Bakhmutka road was not broken. The 31st checkpoint was taken and defended from junta attempts to retake it. Battles are continuing for the 29th checkpoint and the vicinity of Krymskoye. Artillery is still the main deterrent factor. The enemy brought up reserves to parry the threat which appeared on in the evening of the 19th. Now the situation is more or less stable, though we are expecting intensification of combat operations by the evening.

    The enemy is continuing heavy artillery bombardment of Novorossia cities, which confirms a simple truth: if junta forces are not pushed away from the direct vicinity of the main cities of the Donbass, we can’t expect the shelling to stop. Our artillery can only reduce the effectiveness of such shelling, but cannot completely stop them.

    The enemy is also preparing the information battlefield for the ultimate surrender of the Donetsk Airport. The site is already being labeled as useless from both the military and transportation point of view. It seems that if the attacks against the cluster of airport administrative buildings fail, it will be announced that the “cyborgs” carried out their heroic duty, destroyed half the Russian Army, and withdrew to more advantageous positions in order to shorten the frontline [a reference to late-WW2 Nazi explanations of Wehrmacht retreats and withdrawals].

    Our forces on LPR/DPR territory remain in full battle readiness. They are awaiting possible offensive operations by the junta (Turchinov went to the frontline for a reason), and are ready to launch an offensive of their own once they get the go-ahead.
    http://fortruss.blogspot.ca/2015/01/january-21-frontline-update.html
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    Post  par far Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:51 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Oh wow.. the next video will put an end to the controversy about the Airport.. just as
    expected Kiev have been lying all the time.. to fool the ukies into entering the airport into
    a suicide mission. hundreds of ukrainians died trying to capture the airport.. and some few surrender and they interviewed..  Amazing Report!!! by life news...





    Zakharchenko interviews captive UAF soldiers on his presser 20/1/15




    and here TSAREV claims there is information about a new coup happening in Kiev..
    apparently sponsored again by USA.. to remove porosehnko from power..

    Oleg Tsarev: Deputies are evacuating families ahead of the upcoming coup in Kiev




    "Moreover, the situation became much worse, and under conditions of full-scale hostilities in the South-East, the growing discontent of the population of Ukraine whose social benefits were cut, someone must be held responsible for it. The role of the "sacrificial lamb" was given to Petro Poroshenko".

    According to available information, the structures close to Turchinov and Yatsenyuk, with direct support from the U.S. State Department are organizing "Narodnoye Veche" ("Popular Assembly"), which will gather at the initiative of the Council of Maidan. During the Assembly a vote of no confidence will be given to the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.

    Oleg Tsarev:

    "All this is confirmed by the fact that after the holidays on the initiative of the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine an all-Ukrainian protest is planned in Kiev at the building of the Verkhovnaya Rada and the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine.

    The organizers intend to remind the President and the government of Ukraine on the need to observe the pre-election promises to reform the socio-political and economic spheres, raising the standard of living of citizens in the country, and the like. The protesters will demand increased wages and compliance with the terms of collective agreements at industrial enterprises and institutions of Ukraine.

    His interest in joining this protest was expressed by Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, who is trying to use it against Poroshenko. To this end, he instructed his supporters from the People's Front, using the capabilities of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Avakov, to meet with leaders of trade unions and to agree on the future direction of the protest.

    To counteract the intentions of the leadership of the Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine to picket the presidential administration, the Cabinet of Ministers and the Verkhovnaya Rada, the Minister of the Interior Avakov instructed to establish control over the activities of the heads of the Federation of trade unions, and, primarily, Chairman Drapyaty and his Deputy Saenkom, including, by visual surveillance and listening to phones.

    Poroshenko was not smeared with the blood of Maidan, he did not participate in deciding to murder people so that Maidan would receive its sacrificial victims. During the Maidan he spent much more time in the administration of President Yanukovych, than on the square. In particular, he climbed on a tractor with an attempt to stop the coming protesters at the request of one of the most influential people close to Yanukovych.

    Poroshenko turned out to be too independent, having, as a former Minister of Foreign Affairs, many personal contacts abroad. He is not as obedient as the Western curators would like him to be. His peaceful rhetoric is caused by pragmatic interests. In the case of a military scenario the influence of the military battalions, coordinated by Avakov, Kolomoisky and others, will increase, which will contribute to the weakening of Poroshenko's power. Moreover, it is clear that Ukraine will lose the war. As has happened before in history, the US can easily dump "the contractor". Let me remind you, war crimes have no statute of limitation. In addition, in Russia Poroshenko successfully operates a chocolate factory, which suggests that he has good connections in Moscow. All this can not please the Americans.

    Whether the third Maidan will be successful, time will tell. In the meantime my friends from the Parliament are taking their families out of Ukraine in anticipation of disturbing events.


    http://fortruss.blogspot.se/2015/01/oleg-tsarev-deputies-are-evacuating.html

    So there you see.. TR1's lovely USA is planning ANOTHER Coup in ukraine.. because Poroshenko
    is too moderate and not as obedient and inconditional as anglozionist powers want him to be..

    If that happens.. it will be a HUGE opportunity for the disbanding of Ukraine... for Kharkiv to split and Rebels finally take mariupol without a fight.. and ODessa to split too..
    The major thing have me worried.. is The Criminal States of North America and its federal agencies could start false flags in Ukraine non stop ,blaming Russia. for it.. The major proble however is that if Poroshenko is removed ,the fanatics Right Sector will come to full power and will be ready to start a reign of terror in Ukraine.. much more than we have seen and with them of power , they for sure will attack Crimea to get Russia to invade ukraine... I have been saying this many times..  will repeat again..   Pay attention to Ukraine nuclear reactors... specially the ones closer to Donetsk.. and unexpected "accident". Later don't say you weren't told..  Anglozionist are so predictable.. that you can guess without much trouble what will next move will be.. they will not mind a false flag attack to blow up one of the nuclear reactors in Ukraine  to damage Donetsk territory and Crimea with radiation.

    Is an economic war against Russia and Obama and its Republican senate will try to use Ukraine
    as much as possible to slow Russia economy and split Russia from Europe.. So attacks on Crimea and Sochi to sabotage its tourism but also on nuclear reactors.. and or , attacks on Russia territory to force Russia to invade..  Russia needs to ironically try to avoid such coup against Poroshenko to happen.. because with Right Sector in full power it will be absolutely impossible for Russia to have ever any peace in their borders.



    I think they already know that this can happen and probably will happen. There is a good chance that they already(I hope), prepared and have ways to deal with it.
    Regular
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Regular Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:01 am


    Pathetic... and sad...
    Suspect Something you would only see in Cyanide and Happiness comix
    Most epic part starts from 2:35
    Werewolf
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Werewolf Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:01 am

    Truelly pathetic, black history written once again.
    TR1
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:10 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Your argument is based on weak logic. An AK is very reliable... does that mean the dust cover on the rear receiver and the safety bar designed to fully enclose the mechanism and stop the entry of dirt and snow and ice was not intended to protect the mechanism from things dropped onto the rifle?

    No, my argument is based on real world experience, not myths about blown up T-80s and supposedly spark vulnerable MZ autoloaders.

    the plate on top of the autoloader is to stop material of all types falling into the mechanism... including the gunners and commanders feet and fingers.

    the fact that it also stops hot fragments from easily coming into contact with highly flammable propellent stubs may or may not have been by design, but that is the advantage of designing something second... you can look at potential problems in the design and avoid them.

    Right, we can safely assume it is safer. However what I am grinding at , is the difference is not nearly as drastic enough to make the claim that the T-64 is a deathtrap....while the T-72 is not. Let us summarize what I am saying ok? T-72 has a less vulnerable side carousel profile, though it can certainly still be hit. All of the tank types involved generally operate with full ammo capacity- I don't have exact breakdown of this for Chechnya 2.0 but I would bet my bank account there were no overwhelming majority of tanks with only carousel rounds loaded. If we only take carousel rounds however, while the T-72 is safer, I am questioning how much safer. There is no scientific analysis that takes into account most variables that shows the MZ is VASTLY more dangerous than the AZ in combat. The Russian armies Chechnya experience with T-80s and T-72s supports this. Donbass makes the T-64 look bad, but then again so does the T-72. Remember, I am allowing that carousel only T-72 is safer, I just don't think the difference is gigantic. And let's not forget one major point that you are leaving out- MZ has 28 round capacity in its carousel, the AZ only 22. That is a major advantage in a carousel only scenario (well, any scenario) for the T-64 and T-80. Rememeber, part of the Russian Army's choice of the 125mm 2A82 vs the 152mm 2A83 for Amrata is because of the former's ammunition load advantage. So clearly it is very important.

    You already claimed the T-72 was no safer than other models because of experience in the Ukraine and georgia, now you say they ignored tactics developed to improve their safety... doesn't that negate the usefulness of the results?

    No, I am saying the difference isn't gigantic. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a statistical difference, just not a huge one.

    Sorry, lets not bring up American tanks... make that T-80Us.

    Fuel consumption is an issue, no doubt about it. My point however was that going by pure performance, the T-90 never demonstrated its superiority over contemporary T-80U (which came before the T-90 by several years in any case). The Russian Army's choice of the cheaper and longer ranged vehicle may very well have been the right decision, but that is another story.

    When fired at from the side even an Abrams is in trouble as its turret bustle is an easy target and the detonation of all that ammo would mean the crew would not survive.

    No....the turret bustle blows off away from the crew compartment. Neither T-64/T-72 or their offshoots make such a design choice. These are old vehicles, no getting around it.
    Also, the turret bustle isn't exactly an "easy target". From some angles yes it is a sore sport, but from those same angles the rear of a T-64/72 would be penetrated anyways and the crew likely screwed or ammo detonated. From sides the Abrams turret armor layout extends a "composite" array all the way down the turret side. The T-90A doesn't for example.....since it has a completely different turret geometry.


    Ammo storage had everything to do with the T-80 being withdrawn... the low crew survival rate is the actual factor.

    No it doesn't! I am not pulling this out of my ass, this is the consensus on the best Russian tank archive on the web, Otvaga. Head over there if you don't believe me. I also thought that myth about T-80 and MZ loader was true, well....apparently it is not. The withdrawal was because of fuel consumption. That is it. In terms of combat performance they performed about as well as T-72s given the tactics and situations they were employed in.

    Even if they had the risk of penetration and hot fragments on combustable cardboard propellent stubs meant it would not make any difference whether they had 20 or 40 rounds on board except for the total energy of the explosion.

    Well, what can I say. We can guess at that all day long, the combat result conclusions the Russian Army made were different. Hell, Russia used T-62s in Chechnya, so the T-80s withdrawal obviously had nothing to do with crew safety.

    Sounds like you are already making conclusions when your own information says it is too early to make a conclusion...

    I am making a conclusion available on the best possible info I have at my disposal from scrounging Russian forums.

    I expect unless the final conclusion suits your position we will never hear it...  Razz

    No, I am flat out saying: if you have good scientific analysis of the respective tanks, their ammo loads, the type of hits they received in Donbass combat, by all means post it. I am going off available info, as in Chechnya...and the T-72s extensive combat history around the world.

    We have gone over many times the arrangement of ammo in the T-64 and T-80 are flawed.

    No, it is not "flawed". It was designed for a certain purpose and it has weaknesses. They were accpetae. You know they test these tanks out before acceptance right? Shoot them up, simulate ammo loads?
    And once again, if you call the MZ flawed, then the AZ is at the very least "half-flawed"....since it is not invulnerable to being hit or sparked as a result of turret penetration.


    If you can't accept that, then that is fine. Putin didn't design the T-72 BTW.

    Putin has never desighned anything original, so no question there.

    We have the fact that during the first chechen conflict several tanks were lost and in the second rather fewer were lost, where in the second conflict only autoloaders were loaded...

    First of all, I am dubious that all or even most crews operated with only carousel loads. It has become accepted "history" but there is plenty of room for doubt. But, it is certainly possible.

    Of course another factor would be the use of real ERA with explosive blocks fitted in the second conflict, but descriptions of multiple hits suggest better survivability too.

    It was tactics + more competent personnel for the most part IMO.

    Most tanks have to refuel and rearm during combat... it is not really that big a deal to only have 22 rounds of main gun ammo.

    The Russian Army clearly disagrees, since it rejected 2A83 152mm gun on the ammo question. And it was supposed to have a standard ammo load in the low 20s....sounds similar.

    I know about the T-80UD. Taking the T-72 would have been even cheaper and even easier.

    The T-90 was initially essentially a T-72....it did not get anything fundamentally new (aside from sights to bring it up to T-80 parity) until the T-90A inherited Obj 187 features.

    they tested the T-90 vs the T-80 and decided the T-90 was better.

    NO THEY DID NOT. Show me these tests. There were no exhaustive tests that pitted the tanks against each other, and declared the T-90 was better. The T-90 was ordered because 1.) Fuel consumption 2.) cheaper 3.) UVZ lobbying. Not necessarily in that order. If you want my opinion on which is better, well, T-80U had clearly superior mobility, but at the expense of price and fuel consumption.

    Hahaha... yes of course... they just picked the Russian tank... duh... and that is why you hate it so much.

    What is that even supposed to mean? That is some Van7 level of argument. First of all, I am Russian. Second, the T-80 IS ALSO RUSSIAN. They picked UVZ over Omsk.

    The strange thing is that they have picked the T-72 this time around over the T-90AM... most likely on cost grounds so it clearly must be a death trap.... Twisted Evil

    The T-72B3 was supposed to be "as good as the T-90 or close" for 1/3rd the price, according to Serdykov. That turned out to be complete BS, and here we are today. And without the T-90AM the Russian army has not received a vehicle fundamentally better than the almost 30 year old T-80U, some modern thermals aside. Also a fact.



    We are going around in circles at this point.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Kyo Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:06 am

    Poroshenko Says 9,000 Russian Troops in Ukraine, High-Tech Invisibility Cloaks Prevent Detection
    Nearly 10,000 Russian troops are in Ukraine according to Ukraine's president, and yet there hasn't been a single reliable independent confirmation of this incredible claim.

    Ukrainian chocolate sultan Petro Poroshenko told the World Economic Forum this [Wednesday] afternoon that there are currently 9,000 Russian troops in Ukraine, according to a breaking news report from Reuters.

    Speaking in Switzerland, Poroshenko added that the sneaky Russian invaders were backed by a range of heavy weapons including tanks and artillery systems. Poroshenko provided no evidence to back up his claims: no photographs, satellite images, radio interceptions or even twitter messages.

    "If this is not aggression, what is aggression?" Poroshenko asked the Forum attendees.

    A baseless lie designed to garner sympathy with the international community? Or maybe Russia stole Harry Potter's invisibility cloak, stretched it out 10 km, and is marching an entire army under its invisible magic? Both hypotheses seem plausible.
    higurashihougi
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  higurashihougi Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:08 am

    @Everybody: may I ask can you tell me these info are right or wrong ? Is Russian really banned in Estonian workplace ?

    http://zavtra.ru/content/view/yazyik/

    http://www.baltictimes.com/russian_media_claims_that_use_of_russian_banned_in_latvian_workplaces/

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