The Situation in the Ukraine. #11

kvs wrote:
Why doesn't NATO provide details of these units?  Russia should demand a full accounting of its alleged occupation
forces from NATO.

I am disliking Putin a lot right now.   The KLA did not get any pressure to make a deal with Belgrade in 1999.  Why are
the Donbas rebels getting pressured by Russia to make concessions?   NATO was the KLA's air force,  but the Russian
Army has not directly helped the rebels at all.  

Let the freaking haters in NATO bleat all they want.   Russia should make their propaganda claims come true and send
in a limited number, say 30,000 strong force to kick the regime forces half way to Kiev.   Then we can have some ceasefire
talks.

NATO and its dogs in Kiev are not making any iron clad guarantees that civilians will not be shelled 24/7 as was the case
during the last "ceasefire".   So why make any deals at all until they are really hurting?

Putin has a strong hand and he is playing it smart.  Any overt and/or formal RusFed miitary involvement will be jumped on by HATO propagandists and the US/EU reich-wing Russophobes as an excuse for more sanctions, fear-mongering and NATO force buildups (incl the neccesity for "rapid response" groups around Russias periphery).  Putin is betting (correctly I think) that once the dust settles and the Ukie regime is forced to conclude hostilities to the Rebels terms that it will weaken the authority of President Pork-Shank and undermine his domestic legitimacy.  Additionally, once the truth finally filters past the official agitprop to the Ukrainian population that the "Russian Invasion" was a lie invented by Kiev and its US handlers to explain away their disastrous command incompetance (and open hostility between regular military and extremist volunteer groups) then the tide of Russophobia will recede and Ukrainians will start to pay attention to the bastards that have been looting the aid and repressing the general population (like Kolomoiskis thugs and private army that have locked up Dnepropetrovsk like his own personal fiefdom).  

Support for the anti-Russia faction will then start to collapse and Ukraine should eventually return to the non-aligned neutral stance it had before, but with a more federalised structure and de-centralisation of power to prevent any similar seizures by US/EU-sponsored radical ultranationalists.  Ukraine will still be poor and corrupt, but the crazies will be gone and Russia can then play a constructive role in helping to rebuild a Ukraine that isn't a facist NATO satrap on her SW flank.

Is the BBC finally admitting that Maidan 'protesters' (and I use that term loosely) were responsible for sniper attacks?

The untold story of the Maidan massacre

Vann7 wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
Which member of this forum believe (corrected) that France and Germany aren't vassals of USA, which in turn is a vassal of ...?

The "..." doesn't correspond to any of the entities that are popularly associated with being the master of US.

I think calling france and Germany just puppets is an over-simplication of things..

You should ask someone that has more time than me to explain to you that even the "domestic" decisions (for example, building a school) in the regions like France and Germany are not made in those regions.

sepheronx wrote:This peace will not hold,
I don't think the peace talk will actually amount to a cease fire.

It really doesn't matter much.. The Rebels are winning , in a matter of a couple of weeks more or less the debaltsevo pocket will be cleared and the Rebels will be moving to slavyansk.. So Poroshenko not signing any agreement only delays things for a month or two.. but after that Ukie economy will implode and for their obstinence , they not only
will lose all captured Donetsk an Lugansk territory but also will lose Kharkiv and Odessa in new uprising that will start.

The good news is that Putin have show he is ready for peace even by going against the Rebels wo wants independence and ask autonomy and Poroshenko and USA not.. So the European Union will take into account
that the problem is Kiev and USA . Kiev only does what they do.. and continue fighting because US have done promises$$ to the RADA leaders and probably offer luxury properties in USA if they continue the war no matter what.
FOr them it will not matter if Ukraine fails.. since they will have a comfortable wealthy village waiting for them..
In the west.

France is asking for Federalization ,Germany too.. Putin too.. but Poroshenko refuse.. so clearly it is kiev and USA the problem.

The white house strategy is Economic War against Russia through sanctions using Ukraine as pretext..
To end the conflict and change Poroshenko calculations.. (continue to the war so that Russia get sanctions)
Europe could very easily reverse the roles.. and lift the sanctions now to Russia (To go against USA strategy) and warn that they all will leave NATO if USA continues provoking a major war in Europe against Russia.

Once Americans knows they can completely become isolated in the world and lose their world status leadership and lose the alliance that took them decades to build.. they will stop their proxy war against Russia through Ukraine.. And kiev will have no choice but to capitulate.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

You should ask someone that has more time than me to explain to you that even the "domestic" decisions (for example, building a school) in the regions like France and Germany are not made in those regions.

Decisions about Painting a building with the american flag or building a school cannot be compared with
Decisions about allowing a major world war to start. As i told before , Europe also have their own interest.
And the majority of the sane nations ,with love for their country will NOT support the start of world war 3..
knowing how badly it can turns for them.. since Russia is a nuclear powers with thousands of warheads and
USA is trying to provoke a war but with Kiev and Europe in the frontline as meat shields.  

So even the European nations have limits.. They will not put a Gun over their heads just to please americans..
Right now France and Germany and European Union are telling Americans to not interfere in Ukraine and
stay away of the conflict. That what they are doing is wrong.. So is a clear Rebellion of the colonies.. small one but still good sign. And if Americans keep pushing for a world war , they will end without allies and isolated.

TR1 wrote:
Vehicles from Russia, 100%. Volunteers, rebels from Donbass, or vacationers, I cannot say.

And why not Ukrainians (Nazis)?

Vann7 wrote:As i told before , Europe also have their own interest.

How would the "interests" of a vassal have any significance; who would pay any attention to them?

higurashihougi wrote:

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

TR1 wrote:
Vehicles from Russia, 100%. Volunteers, rebels from Donbass, or vacationers, I cannot say.

And why not Ukrainians (Nazis)?

Russia may support some sorts of weapons, but at a very limited level and in a very secret way.

That means "Russian T-72B3 in Donbass" is nothing but bullshit. Such a blalant way is not how Russia support the Novo republics.

I was trying to find out what TR1 has identified in the images that indicates the operators of the MT-LBs, VSS, and the other gear are not Ukrainians (Nazis), and why should they belong to his short-list?

So those poor ukr chaps will leave cauldron unharmed, ty putin:D

Regular wrote:So those poor ukr chaps will leave cauldron unharmed, ty putin:D

Destroying them is not going to be easy anyway, otherwise it would have been done already.
Every sq. meter of land is being fought for.

The ideal thing would be just to annihilate them with artillery, but again it would have been done alraeady.. and there is still time between now and the 15th.

Otherwise, letting them go is not that bad - at the very least, it would save a lot of rebel lives too.
While the Ukrainian forces won't be blasted apart - the rebels will gain control over this territory at least.

Imagine the scenario:
February the 15th comes and porky says: "Hey, we're about to cease fire, but those damned seps just keep firing. On top of that, our intel reports that Kantemirovka division just crossed the border. Given these developments, I'm afraid I have no choice..."

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

Vann7 wrote:As i told before , Europe also have their own interest.

How would the "interests" of a vassal have any significance; who would pay any attention to them?

Morpheus is right, nothing of importance in germany is made based on german interest nor by germans themselfs. If you build a playground they don't give a damn, but when you make anykind of laws that can cut income of "german" companies which are only enslaved and pay taxes to US, yes to US, then it is above germans decision.

We don't run our own Military basis, every major military base is filled with US American supervisors, while not a single german is even allowed to apporach US American bases in germany without worrying being shot. US American bases we germans pay for, if i may add. Nukes are stored here, no german has ever layed eye upon, part of our "National" Air Defense is controlled by US itself, they give even commands to german pilots and not germans to germans. We have US prisons on german soil that counts as US soil, so no one will ever inspect those prisons that means they defacto 1:1 what Gitmo is. There are Private Secret Armies within European national armies controlled by NATO itself which you can read in the book "NATO- Secret Armies within NATO: Staged Terror and hidden Warfare" by austrian author Daniel Ganser. Gladio for example (which means sword) is today known NATO's secret army within Italy that was used on several occasiation to stage Terrorist attacks across Europe and this is also the very same NATO secret army that helped Israeli Mossad agents to assassinate two Israelis that tried to get secrets out and another one the famous "Mordechai Vanunu" who exposed that Israel has nukes was trying to get out of Israel and was kidnapped by Mossad and Gladio's Agents and brought back to Israel he now is sentenced to life long house arrest and is observed by ISIS (Israel Secret Intelligence Service) which is Israels actual (CIA,Mi6) and not the famous Mossad.

Not a single NATO country and not a single EU country is free or can make free decisions, oligarchs that are most time not germans but some crooks who have been raised for this kind of jobs like studying in US universities already indoctrinated into North Atlantic and Transatlantic lobbyistic groups and then set into power. Georgian President Sackarschwilli for example studied his live in western universities, was and is an agent of transatlantic lobbyistic groups and that is the reason why he asslicks the west, same with Merkel, Hollande, CaMoron and the rest of subhumans.

etaepsilonk wrote:Imagine the scenario:
February the 15th comes and porky says: "Hey, we're about to cease fire, but those damned seps just keep firing. On top of that, our intel reports that Kantemirovka division just crossed the border. Given these developments, I'm afraid I have no choice..."

That would be a godsend for the rebels.

It would enable Putin to hold his hands up to France and Germany, or at least to whatever semblance of independent policymaking that remains there, and say "Sorry guys, I tried, I really did, but as you can see it is the Ukrainians themselves that are not interested in peace".
That would put France and Germany in an awkward position, as their own 'partner' the Ukraine, with the backing of their other 'partner' the US - would have been the one that broke the treaty they themselves authored; however France and Germany would be forced to go along with it and match the escalation of the situation by supporting the Ukrainians more with money or whatever.

Ultimately it wouldn't really change anything, at least not immediately, but it would privately infuriate a lot of the EU officials and leaders, that they are simply being trampled over by the US and its aspirations; just like they were when Germany's man Klitschko was shoved out of the way and the US's own people were installed in the new unconstitutional government last February.

And then of course Putin would have all the justification that he needs, including from a semi-legal point of view owing to the broken agreements - to take the gloves off in terms of aid to the rebels, and really put the smack-down on the Kiev loyalist forces.

Heavy Artillery Withdrawal in Donbas Should Be Completed Within Two Weeks

According to the Minsk deal, all foreign armed groups, military equipment and mercenaries should leave Ukraine under the OSCE control. Moreover, the document calls for disarming all illegal groups in Ukraine.

MINSK (Sputnik) – Heavy artillery withdrawal in Donbas is set to start soon and will be completed within 14 days, the Minsk document reads.
According to the deal, all foreign armed groups, military equipment and mercenaries should leave Ukraine under the OSCE control.
Moreover, the Minsk document calls for disarming all illegal groups in Ukraine.
One of the conditions for Kiev to regain control over the border with Russia is the implementation of constitutional reforms in Ukraine, according to a Minsk declaration, which was agreed upon during the so-called Normandy format meeting on Thursday. Decentralization issue should be reconsidered as well.

“The implementation of the constitutional reform in Ukraine with the new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, presupposing the decentralization of power as the key element [taking into account features of some areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions agreed on with the representatives of these regions], as well as the approval of the permanent legislation about the special statuses of some areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions,” the declaration says.

The Minsk deal calls for legislation on the special status of the southeastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Ukrainian parliament, Verkhovna Rada, must pass a bill on the special status of Donbas within 30 days, the document reads.

Germany and France will give technical support to renew the banking system that was disrupted by violence in eastern Ukraine, according to the Minsk agreement agreed upon by the leaders of Germany, France, Ukraine, and Russia on Thursday.

"Germany and France will provide technical support to renew the segment of the banking system that was disrupted in the regions of the conflict, possibly by creating an international mechanism to provide social payments," according to the Minsk document accepted by the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia.

Kiev will renew the banking systems in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, according to the document.

"Ukraine will renew the management of the segment of its banking system in the regions affected by the conflict, and it is possible an international mechanism will be created for money transfers," the document reads.

"All-for-all" prisoner exchange between Kiev and eastern Ukrainian forces should take place within five days following troops' pull back.

"Provide for the freedom and exchange of all prisoners and illegally detained individuals on the principle of ‘all-for-all.’ This process must be completed within at least five days after troops have been pulled back," the document reads.

The document calls for amnesty for the people related to the events in several districts of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Participants of the Normandy format meeting — Russian President Vladimir Putin, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel – have been holding talks for more than 13 hours in the Belarusian capital of Minsk to hammer out a deal on the Ukrainian crisis.

Members of the Contact Group, comprising envoys from Kiev, Moscow, the Luhansk and Donetsk people’s republics, as well as the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) have also been negotiating in Minsk since Tuesday.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150212/1018155443.html#ixzz3RX0ZiOD3

flamming_python wrote:
That would be a godsend for the rebels.

Don't you think it would be godsend for UA high political circles as well?
"King dollar" rules everything in that country.

And war brings all those people enormous profits from military contracts, also much foreign aid to plunder

Kyo wrote:Heavy Artillery Withdrawal in Donbas Should Be Completed Within Two Weeks

According to the Minsk deal, all foreign armed groups, military equipment and mercenaries should leave Ukraine under the OSCE control. Moreover, the document calls for disarming all illegal groups in Ukraine.

MINSK (Sputnik) – Heavy artillery withdrawal in Donbas is set to start soon and will be completed within 14 days, the Minsk document reads.
According to the deal, all foreign armed groups, military equipment and mercenaries should leave Ukraine under the OSCE control.
Moreover, the Minsk document calls for disarming all illegal groups in Ukraine.
One of the conditions for Kiev to regain control over the border with Russia is the implementation of constitutional reforms in Ukraine, according to a Minsk declaration, which was agreed upon during the so-called Normandy format meeting on Thursday. Decentralization issue should be reconsidered as well.

“The implementation of the constitutional reform in Ukraine with the new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, presupposing the decentralization of power as the key element [taking into account features of some areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions agreed on with the representatives of these regions], as well as the approval of the permanent legislation about the special statuses of some areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions,” the declaration says.

The Minsk deal calls for legislation on the special status of the southeastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Ukrainian parliament, Verkhovna Rada, must pass a bill on the special status of Donbas within 30 days, the document reads.

Germany and France will give technical support to renew the banking system that was disrupted by violence in eastern Ukraine, according to the Minsk agreement agreed upon by the leaders of Germany, France, Ukraine, and Russia on Thursday.

"Germany and France will provide technical support to renew the segment of the banking system that was disrupted in the regions of the conflict, possibly by creating an international mechanism to provide social payments," according to the Minsk document accepted by the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia.

Kiev will renew the banking systems in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, according to the document.

"Ukraine will renew the management of the segment of its banking system in the regions affected by the conflict, and it is possible an international mechanism will be created for money transfers," the document reads.

"All-for-all" prisoner exchange between Kiev and eastern Ukrainian forces should take place within five days following troops' pull back.

"Provide for the freedom and exchange of all prisoners and illegally detained individuals on the principle of ‘all-for-all.’ This process must be completed within at least five days after troops have been pulled back," the document reads.

The document calls for amnesty for the people related to the events in several districts of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Participants of the Normandy format meeting — Russian President Vladimir Putin, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel – have been holding talks for more than 13 hours in the Belarusian capital of Minsk to hammer out a deal on the Ukrainian crisis.

Members of the Contact Group, comprising envoys from Kiev, Moscow, the Luhansk and Donetsk people’s republics, as well as the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) have also been negotiating in Minsk since Tuesday.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150212/1018155443.html#ixzz3RX0ZiOD3

But we know this won't happen.

GarryB wrote:Hopefully if the US decides to arm the kiev forces that Russia will reciprocate and arm the rebels... then instead of SA-13 they can use something more modern to deal with A-10s.

Russia has been subjected to sanctions for arming the rebels without proof.

If the US acknowledges it is arming the Kiev regime then Russia should either demand the sanctions are immediately dropped or impose its own sanctions... or just send military supplies to the rebel regions in bulk...

Garry, I don't think the US is going to send A-10s to Ukraine, too volatile of a situation.

So much for peace, the fascist Kiev regime is already accusing Russia of sending heavy weapons into Ukraine.

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/02/12/397272/Kiev-Russian-arms-in-E-Ukraine

Another useless ceasefire asked by Ukrs when they got rekt. Pathetic

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

Vann7 wrote:As i told before , Europe also have their own interest.

How would the "interests" of a vassal have any significance; who would pay any attention to them?

Because even though Europeans are colonies and do like to be colonies too.. they also have interest to not be destroyed their nations too.. They alone can't do nothing but united most of europe can stop USA. The war against
IRAN that obama wanted to lead (remember the options for war against IRAN are on the table crap?) is a perfect example.. it failed because found no support in Europe. And Americans became isolated in IRAN wanted war and they had no choice that to capitulate with IRAN . What happened with Syria war when americans wanted to use
their navy to support the terrorist ? it had no support either in Europe or in US for that war.. and what Obama did?
they backed down at the first excuse they found..and Putin smart enough provided that excuse of the chemical destruction deal. Now they found another way to continue the war by not telling the truth of what they intend to do ,using with the pretext of "fighting only ISIS" but thats a different story.


Now is much worse than IRAN.. is war against Russia.. but with Europe in the front line and americans leading from 11,000 km away of the front line. Europeans most sane nations with more to lose do not want a world war against Russia ,under any pretext. So they maybe cannot stop Americans from arming Ukraine.. but they can do something
better.. and that is to talk openly in public and tell the world that what americans want to do in Ukraine is wrong .

Public opinion is everything and is something bad happens there ,and if the violence increase dramatically it will be US fault..and blowback in their face ,then Obama will get mayor unrest in their cities. Because he had no support from no one in Europe and no one in America . Any President that do something without public support and complete rejection ,and turns to end really wrong will end in a revolution to kick the President from power. This happened
already with Argentina ,that tried to capture Falklands island from UK with a war they launched.. they lost the war and a revolution began next that removed form power their president.

If Obama does not get any support from europe ,it will be hard to convince the american people that what they
do in Ukraine is right. and it will mean ,not single mistake will be tolerated by the american people and it will be their
government fault if americans casualties happens for provoking a war with RUssia. United States is only 1 warship sinked away of a revolution.. is all that needs to happen for an Euromaidan in USA to happen. Public opinion is extremely important at the time of any conflict or war.

The new peace agreement is quite clever the wording.. Basically It ask for Federalization of Ukraine.. (decentralization of Power).. and it even specifically mention eastern Ukraine "special status" 1) AS  2) THE 3) CONDITIONS.. with 4)mayor political reforms.. to ease the demands of the rebels.. for they gaining a symbolic control of their borders
with light arms..  (remember all heavy weapons will have to be removed from eastern Ukraine.)  

So Kiev will get control of the border when 1)they give autonomy to eastern Ukraine and 2)remove the very same thing that is killing civilians day and night from Donetsk.

The document does NOT ask for removing of short range "light" weapons. ie no removing of kornets and manpads that you can hide any place.  and the rebels will maintain their rifles too.. so they will not lose control of the territory they have.  

IF kiev later break the deal.. Rebels can bring back again their artillery and tanks and rinse and repeat.. and the border post  will be taken again in no time.     If the Rebels are not disarmed and they will not be.. and only heavy artillery and tanks removed from both sides.. Kiev will have only a symbolic control of eastern ukraine.

Remeber time is on the side of Russia.. delayed the conflict ,freezing it.. which is what this deal will do for kiev
will not benefit Ukraine, Once its economy implode they will disband on its own without rebels firing a shot. Anti-Euro-maidans in every city will be next.

So officially the misnk deal ,will freeze the war.. and this is not really that bad.. the trick will be for Russia to be aware of any Ukraine army heavy weapons movements.

Interestingly the minsk deal also ask for Kiev to stop the economic blockade to eastern Ukraine..
The possibilities for a real cease of fire exist.. Kiev will get tired of fighting and sooner or later they will have to capitulate to eastern Ukraine demands.

A good video explaining what Merkel and Hollande are up to and Poland and Lithuania will also be used in this situation.


http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=1005