PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

A few minutes ago, I've just learned that the PAK-FA T-50 program is frozen. Have you more news ?
If it is correct it is not a bad news for Russia, as I've suspected the PAK-FA does not bring any add value comparing to the very effective SU-35 and Mig-35. If so, it could free the funds for more SU-35, and Mig-35, it seems to be a very good news if it is true. Could someone confirm this please.

nemrod wrote:A few minutes ago, I've just learned that the PAK-FA T-50 program is frozen. Have you more news ?

this is out of question. Frozen now that is in final stage of completion?

nemrod wrote:A few minutes ago, I've just learned that the PAK-FA T-50 program is frozen. Have you more news ?
If it is correct it is not a bad news for Russia, as I've suspected the PAK-FA does not bring any add value comparing to the very effective SU-35 and Mig-35. If so, it could free the funds for more SU-35, and Mig-35, it seems to be a very good news if it is true. Could someone confirm this please.

Link or source?
It has been slowed down with only 12 aircraft planned by 2020 as opposed to 55. Was this what you are hearing?

No.

Initial plan is for 200-250 and the order is firm. They reduced how many are to be flown by 2020 and this was stated already Nemrod. T-50-5R will be flying in a month or so.

nemrod wrote:A few minutes ago, I've just learned that the PAK-FA T-50 program is frozen. Have you more news ?
If it is correct it is not a bad news for Russia, as I've suspected the PAK-FA does not bring any add value comparing to the very effective SU-35 and Mig-35. If so, it could free the funds for more SU-35, and Mig-35, it seems to be a very good news if it is true. Could someone confirm this please.

Are you some kind of a troll? If you make a claim like that, you post your source. Obviously there is nothing even remotely credible suggesting the project being frozen, which is good. Failure of PAK FA would unequivocally be very negative for Russia and its air force. Su-35S and MiG-35 are fine 4th gen aircrafts, but no substitution for a true new generation design like PAK FA.

I think mean the say f35

Nemrod wrote:Could someone confirm this please.

Notio wrote:
Are you some kind of a troll?

Before insulting me, please read all my post. After you can say what you want. I assume my english is far to be perfect, but enough to be understandable, at least the sense. My source came from Gen Valentin Valescu in a frencheese blog. I think he knows what he asserts, for that reason I asked you all, all the community inside this forum to check, and to find in russian medias. I hope, Iam clear, I hope Iam not misunderstood this time.

This Gen frenchy is wrong then. Plain and simple. If you go back a few pages in this thread, we already talked about this.

No point brining it up anyway since in recent news, they are talking of latest T-50-5R being released for testing soon.

Ask yourself this question: why would they continue testing and bringing out more test models and modifications if the project is frozen?

It simply was a sensationalist attitude because they reduced initial batch from 50-55 to 12 for 2020 for whatever reason. Maybe engines or whatever. But they also stated full 200-250 will be purchased.

The sentence is

Par manque d’argent, la Russie « gèle » le programme de l’avion Su T-50

It means Russia froze the project because of lack of money. I was suprised, because indeed this aircraft is his final test stage, however, as the F-22 met great problems-untill now, many F-22 had great problems contrary to what US asserts-, and US have not untill now used it, just only for some quick shows, it leads me to think that russian staff does not want to do the same US mistakes. Russia rely on China's J-20, after all the engines are russians, many of the J-20 components are russian orgins. Hence Russia could rely on chinese tests in order to improve its T-50. Moreover, freeze a project, does not mean stop it, but pause it.

nemrod wrote:
The sentence is

Par manque d’argent, la Russie « gèle » le programme de l’avion Su T-50

It means Russia froze the project because of lack of money. I was suprised, because indeed this aircraft is his final test stage, however, as the F-22 met great problems-untill now, many F-22 had great problems contrary to what US asserts-, and US have not untill now used it, just only for some quick shows, it leads me to think that russian staff does not want to do the same US mistakes. Russia rely on China's J-20, after all the engines are russians, many of the J-20 components are russian orgins. Hence Russia could rely on chinese tests in order to improve its T-50. Moreover, freeze a project, does not mean stop it, but pause it.

Wasn't a pause but a slow down. Some of it due to weapons and engines still being tested and some obviously would be money.

franco wrote:
Wasn't a pause but a slow down. Some of it due to weapons and engines still being tested and some obviously would be money.

It could be nammed like this, but before I need confirmation from the community here. As we could not reach russian languages websites, this information could be availlable only inside russian websites. I've already seen some users in this forum posted relevant informations from -russian native language- military websites and blogs. Nevertheless, if this project is frozen it prove that the SU Pak FA is not a decisive hardware for russian military apparatus. If they chose to build up at first armored vehicles like armata, instead of the SU-PAK FA, russian high commandement has enough confidences into Mig-35, and SU-35.

sepheronx wrote:This Gen frenchy is wrong then. Plain and simple. If you go back a few pages in this thread, we already talked about this.

No point brining it up anyway since in recent news, they are talking of latest T-50-5R being released for testing soon.

Ask yourself this question: why would they continue testing and bringing out more test models and modifications if the project is frozen?

It simply was a sensationalist attitude because they reduced initial batch from 50-55 to 12 for 2020 for whatever reason. Maybe engines or whatever. But they also stated full 200-250 will be purchased.

There isn't any doubt about it, they're already talking about having a 2nd Gen photonic based AESA/Smart Skin Suite ready for the PAK-FA that'll be ready by 2020.

nemrod wrote:
The sentence is

Par manque d’argent, la Russie « gèle » le programme de l’avion Su T-50

It means Russia froze the project because of lack of money. I was suprised, because indeed this aircraft is his final test stage, however, as the F-22 met great problems-untill now, many F-22 had great problems contrary to what US asserts-, and US have not untill now used it, just only for some quick shows, it leads me to think that russian staff does not want to do the same US mistakes. Russia rely on China's J-20, after all the engines are russians, many of the J-20 components are russian orgins. Hence Russia could rely on chinese tests in order to improve its T-50. Moreover, freeze a project, does not mean stop it, but pause it.

Lack of funds is also impossible, unless there was a massive cost overrun, highly improbable due to the fact that the allocated funding for the T-50 was to remain unchanged. People keep getting ansy over the reduced order for 2015... Sukhoi are simply taking it slow as they want to get it right. Lockheed could learn a thing or two (if they still functioned as a legitimate company today).

Western propaganda machine working in overdrive, I have seen people claiming that they have decreased orders for the Pak-Fa and instead chosen to upgrade Mig-31s instead.

Seriously, the Pak-Fa is proceeding within normal parameters.

Nemrod, I would not trust a frenchy as much as I could stand their food(not at all).

I imagine it is just some butthurt over the Mistral thing.

Simply as what was said to you, T-50 was neither frozen, neither stopped, neither will be produced Just 12 T-50. First you must understand this, western world whit US like spear head have in this moment only one Job, any so called bad news (for Russian) on first place must be by main stream media multiplicite by 1000%, second Does you maybe remember how many Russian AF was ordered Su34, and Su35C , Number of produced Su34 was already over come first purchase and now is doubled , same case will be whit number of Su35c, as Su30CM,Same case is also whit helicopters, for example Ka52 will be produced by doubled number of units, and that is whit out NAVY version, which also would be manufactured.Mi28, i do not know but i think that they will made 4x more of those then was palned and was announced,(like Su34 number of produced is already fulfill, new ones will be further modernized they will get new KRET AESA radar, different Avionics screen which will be same like in F-35 in shape of two big LED Touch Screens, where pilot and weapon operator will have freedom to split screens on the way how best fit to them for operate, there is also New Helmet whit integrated HUD and All sights,Evolution of those helmet is prepare for T-50 Actually KRET same kind of Avionics will deliver for PAK FA,T-50 will get 99% of brand new Cockpit look and many new avionic systems:russia: , which wasn't planed on the beginning but that is main difference whit F22, which wasn't get latest Avionics and many of gadgets which was on the "shelf" in the moment when he was preparing to go into operational state.Third also you must know that US invest huge amount of money in every journalist in every person in Russia which can wrote something bad about Russian Army, and they modernization and how BADLY that will harm average Russian standard of living. But problem is that they actually do not have good perception of Russian people, i will not said that they are ready now, that again waiting in the endless columns for piece of meet, or something like that,no, for certain, But western Sanction never can induce such kind of economic downfall, because many reason, on the end, if US believe just in those sanctions, they never will engage it self in something so danger  like is practically open war against Russian population in Ukraine, in hope that this will provoke Putin on big scale intervention, and then they will have justification to try whit some kind of direct military Engagement, but that is pure craziness of one Country which was had so many chance to make thing right after many of dirty deeds and various atrocities against many ethnic groups which was live on US soil, but no they always think that is they God given right. (Money for those purpose is until last ruble already on stash  and literally putted in to safe, and no body can't touch them for any other purpose) fourt, Just this year even more money is given on to same long run project and instead 3,9 BDP, will be spended every year 5.7%, of course many of Economist "experts" instantly was make noise and forsean "terrible" consequences for Russia and Russian people, until Putin wasn't made one announcement in which his was said, that all those Economic experts can't understand one basic things, if Russia wouldn't  do several main modernization like that is plan, Atomic Submarines, Naval Fleet, New Ballistic Missiles,Air Defence And AF which means T-50, they absolutely will not have reason to be worried for Russian economy because their will not be "Russian" economy any more Actually there will not be Russia it self any more, because like to him, and like to every Army Oficire , one thing is clear, this whit Ukraine and sanctions is start of WAR against Russia, if plan whit Ukraine do not make result.US will do everything to started open war whit Russia over other proxy's (they will try to save own arse until last moment) US because they have not any other way to preserve life style living of average Americans which pay for Fuel, electricity and Food,much less money then any other Western Europe nation.that is one reason second is they debt in trillions towards China , and they haven't smallest intention to pay back one dollar (Hitler was on same way rise Germany from depression, they took huge amount of money from mostly Jews Banks in england and America, when he come to conclusion that he actually put Germany into hands of world banks then he was start what he start) from almost same reason Present US in in very similar situation. Conclusion made by your self.
Best joke off all was happened last week when Pentagon and Lockheed was asked from congress that Sanctions towards Russia(again) excluding Russian Space Rocket Engines(for second time i said, because on the start was said , that Sanctions wasn't be apply on those engines, until already purchased batch of engines will not be delivered, what was ended last year, then congress was put EnergoMash(manufacturer of engines) under sanctions also,Of course there is second big offense for EXCEPTIONAL creatures(How is possible that those BARBARIANS have something so much sophisticated better then we have,   Of course that John McCain was so red in his face , and many of so called "Democracy" fighters and he was starting whit various offensive words to talk about Pentagon and Lockheed, until some one from Lockheed and Pentagon wasn't come to him and say something which obviously afraid him that he shit in his own pant's, and after that he wasn't said one more word. But about those BAD NEWS for American space program, you can not read about almost on any of social networks, neither of any of CNN like TV vomit News when comes to the US foreign politics and making the Foe from any one who dare to oppose towards US interests.
So conclusion is, first do not believe in one word's which you read on many , and especially westerner oriented forums or social networks when comes to the Russian weapons and developing and modernization, even you can not believe to Russian source, because they learn lessons , and they simply was back to the plane and simple doctrine from Cold war,Distractions,disinformation and "Mirror Games" aka nothing is like you seen and how is something presented, because from Gorbachev naivety, until Medvedev wish to be little bit more opened in believing to the "given words" and shaken hands to the Putin's also kind of non believe that they (Westerner politician) can be so much corrupted and full of feer in they esens(like he was said, that when he work for KGB, he was think many times how they do something which isn't morally right etc) but after this years in world politics he come to notion that KGB like others countries Agency's is little children beside politician and they kind of feeling for "morality" and "nonmoral". which is lead to the fact that they cant believe to the Westerner and US anything at all, Mistral ships case that showed on most direct and on vomit induce way. French president was shown it self like spineless creature, such was they predecessors during the WWII, except De-gol and soldiers which is by pure luck was stucked in North Africa and they wasn't on first Hitlers sight and blow by his Army, and because they was not surrend(, France was actually one of the most NAZI oriented Country, they actually split France on two pieces, famous Vichy district by which was govern French Fascist and NAZI scum, and Rest of France which was under so called German occupation, which was most laughable occupation in history, almost laughable like French movement of resistance:sleep: .
I apologize because i write big chunk of comments which isnt in direct conection whit T-50, but is in directly conected for reason why people get those information, like T-50 Project is "frozen" :face:Greetings to everybody, especially to all Russians ,and Russia, which is last line of defence for whole world, but problem is that so many people can't understand those simple true, Last line of defence of world in which will be possible that every country can do things on the way which is in the best interest of those countrie it self, last line of defence for multipolar world, where wouldnt be one small group of people which will decide about life and death of 7 billion people...So go Russia, and do not allow to be cheated by any further promise of Creatures from the US which think that they have God Given Right to rull above all of ass.

nemrod wrote:

franco wrote:
Wasn't a pause but a slow down. Some of it due to weapons and engines still being tested and some obviously would be money.

It could be nammed like this, but before I need confirmation from the community here. As we could not reach russian languages websites, this information could be availlable only inside russian websites.  I've already seen some users in this forum posted relevant informations from -russian native language- military websites and blogs.  Nevertheless, if this project is frozen it prove that the SU Pak FA is not a decisive hardware for russian military apparatus. If they chose to build up at first armored vehicles like armata, instead of the SU-PAK FA, russian high commandement has enough confidences into Mig-35, and SU-35.

Once again, the frrenchy is wrong. T-50-5R is coming out next month. If it was frozen, it wouldnt come out at all. And one would trust a frenchman who has absolutely 0% partake in the project over Russians? Especially what happened about Mistral?

Give me a break. Once again, if ypu clearly didnt ignore nearly everyone else, go back a few or more pages of this thread and you will get your answer.

sepheronx wrote:

Once again, the frrenchy is wrong. T-50-5R is coming out next month. If it was frozen, it wouldnt come out at all. And one would trust a frenchman who has absolutely 0% partake in the project over Russians? Especially what happened about Mistral?

Give me a break. Once again, if ypu clearly didnt ignore nearly everyone else, go back a few or more pages of this thread and you will get your answer.

UAC: 3 new samples of PAK-FA will begin flight tests this year

State tests of T-50 are expected in late 2016 - early 2017

the more western propaganda continues the more PAK-FAs will take up the skies

At first thx all for your responses. In fact this person that asserted the PAK-FA T-50 is frozen is the Gen Valentin Valescu. This general is not frenchy, but romanians, and he is russian friendly. He was invited by some russian medias. As I follow the developpement of SU Pak FA, I was suprised by this article especially comming from a general. For that reason I asked you to check. As this website is a forum made by russian friendly users, I openned this discussion here. I could not open this topic neither in CNN, nor in F-16.net, or forum.keypublishing.com -where I was registered too-. As it is a forum, I thought that it is normal to ask this question here, and not elesewhere.

To Ranxerox71

I apologize because i write big chunk of comments....

Thank you very much friend for your post, I read it all, and you will have to know that we are agree at nearly 99%. The other 1%, we will see next why.

French president was shown it self like...

No use to tell more about this ....french people does not like him. He and Sarkozy decided to hang France into the train of NATO. Hollande want to be another Blair, especially when US are in tragic and declining situation, french president realized that he could be the best US ally. No use to tell more...

So conclusion is, first do not believe in one word's which you read on many , and especially westerner oriented forums or social networks....

This is why Iam here friend, if a thing is sure, russian-soviet hardware during the past 70 years during all conflict implying soviet wepons are at the worst comparable, in many case largelly superior to western counterparts. See my my posts about these subjects.

In fact Iam not in favour of SU-PAK FA, because this fighter seems to be very very expensive, and will not provide a real add-value like the the Mig-25, Mig-29, SU-27 when they were built up. If Russia built SU-PAK FA as technlogy demonstrator it seems to be a good think, else it could be a problem.
Contrary to the assertions of western propaganda, the F-22 is not ready for combat, each times US are discovering flaws ineherent to its design. It seems that, in the best case, the availlability of the F-22 fleet, does not exceed 20-30%. They reached a point that they reduced training pilot from 30-45 hours/month to 10-12 hours/month. No use to tell more about F-35, I posted several topic about it. For that reason, I think the SU-PAK FA is inappropriate. I will post next why russian air force does not need SU Pak FA.

Russian Defense Ministry to slash orders for new PAK FA aircraft

Russian Air Force to buy fewer PAK FA fighter aircraft

Are you another troll?

Cause these were already posted from a more respectible and less 5th coloumnist source. As well, total order of 250 is still the same.

sepheronx wrote:Are you another troll?

Cause these were already posted from a more respectible and less 5th coloumnist source. As well, total order of 250 is still the same.

No need to feel threatened or be so defensive.

I will be happy if the total order stays the same, but why not put a link with the official denial of these claims, if you know for sure that they are not true... (or whatever info confirming that it is not true).

Captain Nemo wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Are you another troll?

Cause these were already posted from a more respectible and less 5th coloumnist source. As well, total order of 250 is still the same.

No need to feel threatened or be so defensive.

I will be happy if the total order stays the same, but why not put a link with the official denial of these claims, if you know for sure that they are not true... (or whatever info confirming that it is not true).

Check previous pages and last pak fa thread. They stated initial order is 12-14 for 2020 but total is still 250 as initial. For how long it will take for all 250, who knows. So we could see 250 pak fas after more than a decade, or longer. But the drop is the sap2020. As you or anyone else knows, there will be procurements after 2020......

Since the new engine (izdeliye 30) will not be complete earlier than 2020. Plus they still need to test new engine with the airframe.
Their decision to cut initial order seem make sense to me.

I was reading through keypublishing forums and there were statements about certain type of ram coating only being in production since recently and older prototypes didnt have them. other thing is too, we have little knowledge on the radar and what is happening with that. Example is that N036 when created, may be using older GaAS t/r modules but NPP Istok apparently working on GaN modules. Mind you, if the generator produces right amount of energy, then wont be a problem.

There are uncertanties atm. They said they are ready for production next year, but engines wont be tested when? Late this year? Then there is even less knowledge on the other technologies.

Captain Nemo wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Are you another troll?

Cause these were already posted from a more respectible and less 5th coloumnist source. As well, total order of 250 is still the same.

No need to feel threatened or be so defensive.

I will be happy if the total order stays the same, but why not put a link with the official denial of these claims, if you know for sure that they are not true... (or whatever info confirming that it is not true).

And there's no need to discuss something that's been discussed to ad nauseam.

What's was already discussed:

1.) That articles claiming orders were slashed were in fact misleading, and the small order were for pre-mass production testing purposes to be conducted by the Ministry of Defense.

2.) This practice has been going on since the Soviet Era, and it's been done the same way countless times before.

3.) Armata is going to go through the same practice before being mass produced.


...The main reason for the redundancy of testing is to make sure the defense product actually performs as advertised, because there's always a chance the defense concern/firm missed something, lied or exaggerated about something, or out right hiding something (such as embezzlement of funds).

By carrying out secondary testing it keeps the defense firms in line and on their toes, basically allowing the MOD to separate the wheat from the chaff!