PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

Test on Izd.30 have started

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2262734.html

For those who can read Russian , Any thing interesting in this link on Russian Engine Development ?

http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/94/pics/pg02.pdf

Any news about the Byelka radar ?



http://indiandefence.com/threads/pak-fa-article-from-air-cosmos-magazine.51333/

Translation of a french article about the T-50 on indiandefence forum.

Austin wrote:remaining development work on the new engine “will be done in the period of 2018to 2020, with state acceptance trials set for 2020.” Russian industry previously developed a 20-tonne-thrust fighter engine for the MiG 1.42 technology demonstrator that flew briefly in 2000. But it never entered production.

That's awfully slow, if one accounts for standard delays and so on. This puts operational unit roll-out beyond 2020, i.e. over ten (10) years of a gap from the prototype's first flight. In comparison, the same gap between YF-22 and F-22A was less than seven (7) years. I'm getting some F-35 vibes out of this.

Austin wrote:Their thrust is likely to be between 15 and 20 tonnes (33,000-44,000 pounds)

That's a big margin right there. If this engine is worth the wait, it'd better be at least 35,000 lbf.

KiloGolf wrote:

Austin wrote:remaining development work on the new engine “will be done in the period of 2018to 2020, with state acceptance trials set for 2020.” Russian industry previously developed a 20-tonne-thrust fighter engine for the MiG 1.42 technology demonstrator that flew briefly in 2000. But it never entered production.

That's awfully slow, if one accounts for standard delays and so on. This puts operational unit roll-out beyond 2020, i.e. over ten (10) years of a gap from the prototype's first flight. In comparison, the same gap between YF-22 and F-22A was less than seven (7) years. I'm getting some F-35 vibes out of this.

Indeed. It seems the average time from first flight to service introduction is in the ball park of 7-8 years. However F-35 vibes is saying a bit much considering that the T-50 already has a capable engine that will be a suitable stand in until the more permanent izdeliye 30's come in. That said, we are only looking at one short coming with regards to the PAK FA, whereas the F-35 is suffering from many, the software blocks not the least among them.

In any event, i doubt there is any rush for the PAK FA to entre mass production. I mean, it is not like the F-35 is about to make its presence felt any time soon either, and the Su-35s is a suitable stand in that is similarly advanced, and i think more than fit for the interim job.

Cheetah wrote:it is not like the F-35 is about to make its presence felt any time soon either, and the Su-35s is a suitable stand in that is similarly advanced, and i think more than fit for the interim job.

The F-35 will be fully combat ready in a few months (2017). It already is combat ready "basic" with Squadrons in CONUS. I'm thinking that just by sheer numbers those few Su-35s won't able to cope with the squadrons upon squadrons of USAF, USN, RAF, etc. F-35s coming online in the 2017-2020 period. Literally hundreds of planes. And right now USA alone has over 100 F-35A/B/C variants in their services.

PAK FA will also have to face the F-35D by the time it sorts itself out (2030ish) and over one thousand (1000) of those early F-35s coming to action soon all around Russia (and China). Dare I say that the delta will be a significantly better plane than the current F-35 mediocrity.

KiloGolf wrote:

Cheetah wrote:it is not like the F-35 is about to make its presence felt any time soon either, and the Su-35s is a suitable stand in that is similarly advanced, and i think more than fit for the interim job.

The F-35 will be fully combat ready in a few months (2017). It already is combat ready "basic" with Squadrons in CONUS. I'm thinking that just by sheer numbers those few Su-35s won't able to cope with the squadrons upon squadrons of USAF, USN, RAF, etc. F-35s coming online in the 2017-2020 period. Literally hundreds of planes. And right now USA alone has over 100 F-35A/B/C variants in their services.

PAK FA will also have to face the F-35D by the time it sorts itself out (2030ish) and over one thousand (1000) of those early F-35s coming to action soon all around Russia (and China). Dare I say that the delta will be a significantly better plane than the current F-35 mediocrity.

They say that, but with the continuous failures rearing its ugly head regarding the F-35, there will be continuous pushback dates.  There always is.  I imagine they will hand over a few here and there to the countries who participated, but overall, it isn't going to be so much of a problem.

Already Canada proclaimed today they are canceling the deal even if it costs us 10,000 workers.  The F-35 so far, by pilots of decades of experience have outright called out the F-35 as a sub-par jet.  It sure has fancy stuff to it, but stuff that is superficial (no HUD but the glass is a HUD.  When they could have just relied more upon the HMS as the HUD instead.  Sensor fusion that sounds great but apparently overlaps itself and confuses the jets system and the pilot.  Two examples, probably more) and for the price, it isn't impressive.  F-22 is still a far better jet and a real threat.

Russia is more reliant on its air defense systems mixed with its airforce.  While I would prefer the Russians going in favor of building a VLO jet using current technologies they have in order to be able to have something quick and competitive and at the same time cheaper, also in numbers, is ideal.  The mixture of systems in Russia's airforce, I believe is a negative more so than a positive.  If Medo's calculations are correct, the Su-34, Su-30M2 and Su-27SM series should have performance comparable to Su-30MKI with its BARS radar (them using the N001VEP) which would mean that they themselves pose a major threat to F-35 but nothing like Su-35 can since it has a much more advanced electronics suit.  But, even with how cheap the Su-35S is (recent deal of roughly $1B for 50 jets, breaking it down to $27M per jet), they should be operating/purchasing more.

The current F-35's they have we are constantly told are ready as combat, but with the continuous failures, it seems to point in another direction.  But nevertheless, it isn't a threat to instantly ignore and should be in RuMoD's best interest to evaluate their procurement plan for their airforce and concentrate more on creation of a system that can counter this threat.  And in my mind, a successor interceptor to MiG-31 may be more important than we feel.  Even if others on sites think the program isn't important.  It is.  PAK FA as well is still very important and could pave way to cheap upgrades to current jets to face the threats from US and its F-35.

miketheterrible wrote:The current F-35's they have we are constantly told are ready as combat, but with the continuous failures, it seems to point in another direction.

That would be true for 2005 or 2010 the amount of BS and fanboyism displayed online was unbearable and retarded. The whole project got delayed by many many years. But, we're a month away from 2017. Recently all those issues were sorted on the -35. There's a software upgrade implemented as we speak which once applied to those 100 or so US planes, it will bring the fleet to fully combat ready. That is for all missions, air, sea and ground.

Not bad if you ask me. Time flies, hundreds of F-35s are a reality in 2017 onward.

KiloGolf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:The current F-35's they have we are constantly told are ready as combat, but with the continuous failures, it seems to point in another direction.

That would be true for 2005 or 2010. But we're a month away from 2017. Recently all issues were sorted on the -35. There's a software upgrade implemented as we speak which once applied to those 100 or so US planes, it will bring the fleet to fully combat ready. That is for all missions, air, sea and ground.

Not bad if you ask me. Time flies, hundreds of F-35s are a reality.

Once again, that is what they say. What I know from experience is what they say vs what is reality are usually two different things. F-22 was ready for decades. Still suffocated pilots.

miketheterrible wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:The current F-35's they have we are constantly told are ready as combat, but with the continuous failures, it seems to point in another direction.

That would be true for 2005 or 2010. But we're a month away from 2017. Recently all issues were sorted on the -35. There's a software upgrade implemented as we speak which once applied to those 100 or so US planes, it will bring the fleet to fully combat ready. That is for all missions, air, sea and ground.

Not bad if you ask me. Time flies, hundreds of F-35s are a reality.

Once again, that is what they say.  What I know from experience is what they say vs what is reality are usually two different things.  F-22 was ready for decades.  Still suffocated pilots.

Well there's always going to be problems, these are big ambitious projects. Risky business like the delays in PAK FA engines, crashes, failures and so on.
We're finding out so fast only due to internet and faster media than say during the 80s or 90s. But F-35 is now well ahead and on track, I can assure you.

KiloGolf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:The current F-35's they have we are constantly told are ready as combat, but with the continuous failures, it seems to point in another direction.

That would be true for 2005 or 2010. But we're a month away from 2017. Recently all issues were sorted on the -35. There's a software upgrade implemented as we speak which once applied to those 100 or so US planes, it will bring the fleet to fully combat ready. That is for all missions, air, sea and ground.

Not bad if you ask me. Time flies, hundreds of F-35s are a reality.

Once again, that is what they say.  What I know from experience is what they say vs what is reality are usually two different things.  F-22 was ready for decades.  Still suffocated pilots.

Well there's always going to be problems, these are big ambitious projects. Risky business like the delays in PAK FA engines, crashes, failures and so on.
We're finding out so fast only due to internet and faster media than say during the 80s or 90s. But F-35 is now well ahead and on track, I can assure you.

Yeah, sure.

The F-35 is going to be awesome... a mediocre aircraft that will suck billions of dollars out of NATO to buy new aircraft no better than upgraded old aircraft but much more expensive to buy and operate...

Putin rigged the elections in the US and he also designs aircraft for America now too....

GarryB wrote:The F-35 is going to be awesome... a mediocre aircraft that will suck billions of dollars out of NATO to buy new aircraft no better than upgraded old aircraft but much more expensive to buy and operate...

Putin rigged the elections in the US and he also designs aircraft for America now too....  

I know right, AK-47 for the win

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-russias-pak-fa-stealth-fighter-could-match-americas-f-22-18606

Russia’s United Engine Corporation (UEC) has started ground testing a next-generation engine for the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fifth-generation stealth fighter according to a statement by the company.

The PAK-FA—which is under development—is currently powered by a pair of 33,000-pound thrust class Saturn AL-41F1 afterburning turbofans. However, the AL-41F1—a version of which is also installed on the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E—is not powerful enough to meet the requirements for the PAK-FA. Ultimately, the AL-41F is a highly modified derivative of the original Sukhoi Su-27’s AL-31F powerplant.

"UEC continues to work on developing a new powerplant for the Russian fifth-generation fighter aircraft,” said Alexander Artyukhov, general director of UEC. “We’re building new demonstrator engine designs that have no technological equivalents in the domestic engine industry.”

While the new engine—often referred to as the izdeliye 30—is being designed by the Lyul'ka design bureau under the leadership of general designer-director Eugene Marchukova, it is being tested at the Lytkarinsky Machine-Building Plant. The engine will likely become operational sometime after 2020. It’s only with the addition of the second stage engine that the PAK-FA will meet the requirements of both the Russian and Indian air forces.

Under ordinary circumstances, an appropriate engine would have been under development for the PAK-FA before work started on the airframe design. However, the Russian defense industry was in a state of chaos in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. As such, Moscow was not able to start developing an appropriate engine for the new aircraft ahead of time during the 1990s—which in many ways was a lost decade for the Russian defense industry.

While there are few details available about the izdeliye 30 engines, the powerplant is expected to deliver 24,054lbs dry thrust and 39,566lbs of afterburning thrust. With the new engine installed, the PAK-FA should be able to offer kinematic performance comparable to the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor—cruising without afterburner at speeds exceeding Mach 1.5 with a maximum speed greater than Mach 2.0 at altitudes of around 60,000ft. “Performance-wise it certainly looks to compete with the Raptor,” one senior military official with extensive experience on U.S. fifth-generation fighters told me some time ago.

Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for The National Interest. You can follow him on Twitter: @davemajumdar.

Russian military expert comparing F-35 and T-50 (PAK-FA) (English subtitles)

At the end of the day the F-35 is intended to replace all existing western 4th gen fighters.

The F-22 is intended to defeat countries that actually have air defences but little air power.

Both are geared to use against third world countries that can be overwhelmed by US led coalitions.

The PAK FA is intended to stop stealth aircraft overwhelming the Russian air defence network.

The PAK FA is optimised to deal with stealth aircraft.

That is why it has several antenna arrays for its multi band radar and also an IRST.

GarryB wrote:At the end of the day the F-35 is intended to replace all existing western 4th gen fighters.

The F-22 is intended to defeat countries that actually have air defences but little air power.

Both are geared to use against third world countries that can be overwhelmed by US led coalitions.

The PAK FA is intended to stop stealth aircraft overwhelming the Russian air defence network.

The PAK FA is optimised to deal with stealth aircraft.

That is why it has several antenna arrays for its multi band radar and also an IRST.

I have heavy doubts that F-35 will replace all existing 4th gen fighters. If so, then that is going to be one large bill. The reality they need to face is that a good mixture between different jets is needed or at least common parts used. PAK FA isn't going to be built in numbers like F-35 is. So it will have to be darn good. Unless the Russians come up with a cheaper PAK FA, something from Mikoyan lets say at a fraction of the cost and to be built in numbers, then they have a chance. But current Su-35S and alike may not be up to snuff.

GarryB wrote:At the end of the day the F-35 is intended to replace all existing western 4th gen fighters.

The F-22 is intended to defeat countries that actually have air defences but little air power.

Both are geared to use against third world countries that can be overwhelmed by US led coalitions.

The PAK FA is intended to stop stealth aircraft overwhelming the Russian air defence network.

The PAK FA is optimised to deal with stealth aircraft.

That is why it has several antenna arrays for its multi band radar and also an IRST.

You mean the oposite, F-22 is there to defeat countries with air power as it is air superiority fighter, while F-35 is to be used aganist countries with less air power as its main role is strike missions.

Also i dont think it will replace 4th gen fighters that easy, especially not Eurofighter, those are to stay for decades and decades to come.

Yes... Sorry it was supposed to be the F-35 was designed to defeat enemy air defences but not enemy air power.

The F-22 is designed to fly high and fast and pick off aircraft as they take off with a few AAMs that get extended range because of the altitude and speed it flys at (supercruising and all that).

The F-35 would be taking out radar and HQ and communications as well as large SAMs and air bases.

Once all that is dealt with then external weapons can be carried and the threat is minimised.

The obvious problem is that the F-22 wont be able to fly sniper position swatting down enemy fighters as they get airborne if the enemy has some decent SAMs in service. ...the F-35s will have to go in with the F-22s which will make them vulnerable to enemy fighters...

Obviously the problem is that the F-22 wont be flying at medium to high altitude at supercruising speed for very long within range of anything decent like S-400 or even S-350 or S-300V.

Even in the 1980s such tactics would not have worked in the Soviet Union let alone today... but they have locked themselves into making over 2,500 F-35s to replace all 4th gen fighters.

The Russians are in a much better position because the Su-35 and MiG-35 are equipped with new systems to engage stealth aircraft like IRST and long wave radar antenna.

In a couple of years they will have photonic radar too and the long range missiles to defeat western aircraft...

Finally photos from Knaapo the T-50-08, interesting photos!

http://www.knaapo.ru/press-centre/gallery/124/

Ciao from Italy.

Ciao, ma la differente colorazione, simile al 55, indica qualcosa di diverso dagli altri? Forse è navale?

Hello, but indicates the different camo, similar to 55, something different from the others? Maybe it's naval?

T-50 borts 055, 056 and now T-50-8 (rumoured bort 058) have similar shark-style cammo, which in turn is fairly similar to the older gray cammo used on the first lots of Su-35S and Su-34 for example.

The byelka radar of the pak fa appearently uses gallium nitride technology and not gallium arsenide
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/675239.html
"The greatest progress in the development of RFCs W-121 is associated with adjusting to the state of the mass production of basic element radar AFAR - transceiver modules. The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for the SPR, representing a monolithic integrated circuit type of GaN"

it should also be noted that the 1552 t/r module claim is no longer true , as of now they increased them to around 2000 according to the latest russian confirmations .