Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

Back on topic both Kurganets and Boomerang will likely have their own drones... including tethered ones that can pop up from behind cover or concealment and use radar or IIR to search for targets and gather information without exposing anything vulnerable...

From the enemies perspective they will know there is something behind that building or hill or line of trees or bushes but they wont know if it is a jeep like a Tigr with a tethered drone gathering info or an Armata division or anything in between...

All this western light drones for vehicles got the problem that they have to send their signals back via radio. Which can be jammed. The russian approach with tethered drones is much better suited for the battlefield. With a solid connection between drone and vehicle there is nothing to be jammed.

miketheterrible wrote:As someone who has a family member in the military that deals with radar - that's not how EW works

Modern EW systems blast the enemy systems and subsystems with high frequency, high wattage power to either fry or blind a system.  Doesn't matter what frequency they operate at.

Ground based systems can more or less scramble a bombers radar and comm system by hitting it with high wattage of radiation.  Ground based systems will always be more powerful as they have huge resources behind them to power it's generator.

We are absolutely of topic, but if you want to read about these weapons.
Below is some info and links about the EMP and the Champ.

The Military & Aerospace Electronics take:
17 May 2019 -- The U.S. Air Force has deployed at least 20 missiles that could zap the military electronics of North Korea or Iran with high-power microwaves, rendering their military capabilities virtually useless without causing any fatalities.
Known as the Counter-Electronics High Power Microwave Advanced Missile Project (CHAMP), the missiles were built by Boeing's Phantom Works for the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory and tested successfully in 2012. They have not been operation until now.
The microwave weapons are fitted into an air-launched cruise missile and delivered from B-52 bombers. With a range of 700 miles, they can fly into enemy airspace at low altitude and emit sharp pulses of high power microwave (HPM) energy that fry computer chips to disable any electronic devices targeted by the missiles with causing any collateral damage.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/rf-analog/article/14033453/air-force-deploys-b52-missiles-that-could-disable-enemy-military-electronics-with-highpower-microwaves

EMP weapons
EMP can be naturally occurring from solar activity, or man-made, such as the EMP discharged by the explosion of a nuclear weapon. Both can have devastating effects on whatever area they envelop, from permanently disabling satellites in orbit to “frying” smart phones and other electronics with no possibility of repair.
What was still considered science fiction in the 20th Century is fast becoming military reality in the 21st. Some, such as handheld “ray guns” are still a while off, and will require major advances in the size and longevity of small form factor power systems. Still, what only a few years ago required a military 747 to carry now is being fitted on Stryker combat vehicles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).
In addition to destroying everything from a single smart phone to an entire continent’s critical infrastructure, permanently and without possibility of repair, high-power electromagnetic weapons offer a degree of stealth; their shrinking size and growing power make it difficult to identify the attacker. They are the perfect weapon for terrorists and saboteurs because they can strike silently, invisibly, and with total devastation.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/power/article/14072339/emp-high-power-electromagnetic-weapons-railguns-microwaves

GarryB wrote:Back on topic both Kurganets and Boomerang will likely have their own drones... including tethered ones that can pop up from behind cover or concealment and use radar or IIR to search for targets and gather information without exposing anything vulnerable...

From the enemies perspective they will know there is something behind that building or hill or line of trees or bushes but they wont know if it is a jeep like a Tigr with a tethered drone gathering info or an Armata division or anything in between...

It will be very helpful if the commander can see behind the hill. It will be even better if we can use a robotic vehicle, and reduce the risk for the vehicle and his crew.

And BTW do we have any info about the missiles of the Bulat like range, size, guidness and so on?

Trust me, like I said, I have family who uses and has built such equipment. So yeah, I'm familiar with how EW systems work.

And BTW do we have any info about the missiles of the Bulat like range, size, guidness and so on?

The optical sensor on its tail suggests it is a laser beam rider like Kornet, but nothing else is solid...

The Kornet has two warheads... one in the nose and one in the rear... the front to set off ERA and the rear one focused and huge to penetrate down the hole the front warhead creates... hard to say what the Bulat has.

Externally it looks the same except scaled down, so the overall design is probably the same so propellent in the centre and warheads at each end is good for balance no matter whether it is at the start of its flight with full propellent or near the end where most is burned up... having the propellent around the centre of gravity makes its aerodynamics easier to manage and stabilise... having a warhead at the front and the back balances things and sets up the opportunity of two separate charges... for Kornet that mean a precursor charge to get rid of ERA panels and then a main rear charge, but as I have mentioned for a weapon supposed to be used against lighter armour a front charge to punch a hole in the armour or exterior of a target like an IFV or APC or building or bunker and then the rear charge being a thermobaric material blown through the hole into the target where it then detonates and consumes the oxygen inside the vehicle or building would be a very potent and powerful weapon.

Even with a missile as powerful as Kornet if you hit an APC odds are the powerful HEAT beam with melt a finger sized hole in and straight through and out the other side... unless you are in the path of the beam or spall and as long as it doesn't hit and set off ammo or fuel you could probably survive the hit a lot of the time...

With a thermobaric follow up charge will kill everyone inside by explosive level shockwave breaking bones and of course the conflagration consuming all the oxygen so you would suffocate too.

Is the diameter of the "Kornet junior" can be 80mm like the diameter of the air to ground rockets?

At the begining I thought that it sould be the Shmel-M. This baby can do a nice ring of fire as the song say.

I love the thermobaric warhead.

That would be interesting... perhaps with a rear booster section to launch it out of the tube and send it on its way... most attack helos that can carry 80mm rocket tubes can also guide laser beam riding missiles already so there would not be much modification needed...


Regarding the thermobaric warhead, it is an efficient way to destroy and kill sadly, it would become a quite efficient way of destroying a lot of targets a HEAT round would normally simply burn a narrow hole right through.

For instance when engaging a helicopter its armour to stop bullets can reduce the effect of HE explosions, but punching a small hole and pumping explosive inside and then detonating it would be vastly more effective at destroying the aircraft. With regard to your average building you do considerably more damage by making a hole in the wall and moving the explosion from outside to inside... an explosion is pressure so outside the pressure is free to be released in all directions so you need a powerful charge to damage things behind cover. If you can penetrate that cover and detonate the charge inside then the cover actually makes the explosion more devastating by concentrating and reflecting the shockwaves so you get hit with multiple shock waves from different directions... makes them much more lethal... while reducing the danger outside the building or vehicle unless they are shattered and then you get fragments of the target added to the damage created...

GarryB wrote:The APFSDS round lying down looks like it has the same shape as the grenade standing up... have they made the 57mm grenade launcher able to take high pressure rounds so it can use large slow heavy grenades but also slim light very high velocity penetrator rounds too?

Yes the 3БМ76 is the projectile and to the right you have its 3УБМ21 round and is integrated also in the reduced ballistic 2A94 gun to engage at stand-off distance the new generation of foreign enemy IFV together with the "Булат" and or "Корнет".

AJ-47 wrote:A smart enemy will have missiles that will release from a plan far away from the target, it will have the path to the target in his head and could by-pass the AD systems on the way without using GPS, and when the missiles get close to the target the smart warhead, that has the picture of the target in his head, will find his way to the target hit it and destroy it.

AJ-47 we were debating the rational of the weapons integrated in the robotized turrett of majority of the new generation of Federation's fighting ground vehicle and in particular Эпоха with 2A94 reduced ballistic gun, "Корнет" and "Булат" missile and integrated soft-kill and hard-kill APS.

In order to attack a target from beyond LOS you need area search wide field of view platforms surveiling an area , those platforms must loiter in the area to provide positional update of the mobile targets even more if the attacking munitions are subsonic or ,worst, low subsonic,

This role today in US Army is covered by this patform (RQ-7)




Am US Army Brigade Combat Team's UAS team include today 4 RQ-7 UAVs for surveillance role.

If that BCT lose suddenly all its complement of ISR UAVs its capability to engage from beyond LOS enemy units ,also trasmitting its positional data to Aircraft/UCAV if present in the area, will be terribly hindered ; that is particularly true for the prevalence of high cost point-target precision guided munitions in US armed forces and instead a lack of widespread and efficient area attack weapons.

Mindstorm wrote:

Yes the 3БМ76 is the projectile and to the right you have its 3УБМ21 round and is integrated also in the reduced ballistic 2A94 gun to engage at stand-off distance the new generation of foreign enemy IFV together with the "Булат" and or "Корнет".

"If you saying that the Bulat's missile can be launched at 1,000 M/S or more that's new for me."

Mindstorm wrote:AJ-47 we were debating the rational of the weapons integrated in the robotized turrett of majority of the new generation of Federation's fighting ground vehicle and in particular Эпоха with 2A94 reduced ballistic gun, "Корнет" and "Булат" missile and integrated soft-kill and hard-kill APS.

"Which are the RCWS turret that you have on mind?"

Mindstorm wrote:In order to attack a target from beyond LOS you need area search wide field of view platforms surveiling an area , those platforms must loiter in the area to provide positional update of the mobile targets even more if the attacking munitions are subsonic or ,worst, low subsonic.

"We sure need info about the target and we need it to be paint, but the moment the bomb/missile acquired the target with his SAL sensor it's done deal.
Also there is loitering munition that sees the target and attack without any direction from third party."

Might be that the picture show the 57mm high volocity round and not the round of the Bulat.

AJ-47 wrote:If you saying that the Bulat's missile can be launched at 1,000 M/S or more that's new for me

And what should be the reason to provide Булат with a speed of 1000 m/s ?
I presume that you image that a Курганец-25's operator in mobile engagement will use it at reduced range aginst the fire of medium caliber autocannon......

Булат is a guided missile and will enjoy a substantial stand-off range against enemy IFVs on the motion, having those ready missiles (together with the 4 Корнет) allow Курганец-25's operator to dictate the terms of the battle, in particular those weapons will force enemy fighting vehicles to remain behind covers or in defilade in fixed position, becoming in this way, easy prey of concentrated indirect fire or same 57 mm rounds with programmable detonation.

AJ-47 wrote:"Which are the RCWS turret that you have on mind?"

Эпоха the turrett we talk about.

AJ-47 wrote: but the moment the bomb/missile acquired the target with his SAL sensor it's done deal.

Before that moment there is a wide space for any of the platform involved to finish in pill size fragment of metal (this is by far the most likely outcome with domestic level IAD) ,but also after that a semi active laser sensor has locked on the reflected signal (that happen at ranges so small that is would be practically unworkable agianst Federation's level opponent) any action that interrupt this guidance ,from destruction of the laser irradiating platform, to the employment of area or self defense aerosol that scatter the ray at hundreds of meters of distance, cause all the ammunitions delivered to be wasted.

AJ-47 wrote: Might be that the picture show the 57mm high volocity round and not the round of the Bulat

   Булат?







Булат is the missile just under to Корнет.

To the left you have 3ОФ91, to the center 3БМ76 projectile and to the right 3УБМ21 round.

Mindstorm,

Do we know the muzzle velocity (speed) of the 3ОФ91 when fired from the 57mm gun of the Epocha?
Also what are the velocities of the 3БМ76 projectile and the 3УБМ21 round?

I am asking this because the 57mm gun on the Epocha combat module is a low pressure gun. I expect low muzzle velocity. So why have an APFSDS round when you are not going to get high velocity?????

Yes the 3БМ76 is the projectile and to the right you have its 3УБМ21 round and is integrated also in the reduced ballistic 2A94 gun to engage at stand-off distance the new generation of foreign enemy IFV together with the "Булат" and or "Корнет".

Awesome... so in many ways it is a telescope ammo type round with a large low velocity heavy and powerful for its calibre HE round, but also a small high velocity small kinetic penetrator round... excellent.

The ammo also seems rather compact too... I thought having a power HE round was an advantage due to the compact nature of the ammo, but the cost would be lack of case capacity for a high velocity penetrator anti armour round but it clearly is better than I imagined.

I wonder if they could do the same with the 23x115mm round... the 23mm shell has a good HE capacity but a high velocity APFSDS round would be interesting... they could replace the KPV in 14.5mm with a KPV in 23mm calibre... similar sized and weighted round but better armour piercing potential with an APFSDS round and obviously with the 23mm round a much better HE projectile too in basically the same gun using pretty standard ammo containers similar to existing types.

"If you saying that the Bulat's missile can be launched at 1,000 M/S or more that's new for me."

No. Bulat is the small missile in front of the Kornet. We are talking about the 57mm grenade launcher ammo on the table... to the left the 57mm HE round and then the APFSDS round with the sabot in the middle and the same APFSDS round in the case to the left on the table.

"Which are the RCWS turret that you have on mind?"

The previously shown photo of the turret with the 57mm grenade launcher... all the new weapon turrets including the 125mm gun turret on the T-14 are RCWS turrets in that they are unmanned.

I am asking this because the 57mm gun on the Epocha combat module is a low pressure gun. I expect low muzzle velocity. So why have an APFSDS round when you are not going to get high velocity?????

I suspect based on the thickness of the actual barrel and the existence of a APFSDS round suggests it is not a low pressure gun but a high pressure gun and is probably a rifled gun, while the 57mm gun of the BMP is also high velocity and probably rifled to allow compatibility with existing 57mm gun ammo...



Just for clarity here is the photo in question:



Note the big missile at the back is Kornet, the smaller missile in front of it is Bulat, while on the table there is the 3ОФ91 57mm HE grenade, then to the center the 3БМ76 projectile which is an APFSDS dart and sabot petals and to the right the complete 3УБМ21 round which is an APFSDS 57mm round.

This is all rather interesting because as a vehicle mounted weapon it becomes much more useful and flexible, but also for a while there was a 30mm cannon used by Russian special forces as an anti MRAP weapon, but if this weapon can fire APFSDS rounds then it would be even better with a much more powerful HE round and an AP round able to penetrate most light vehicles on the battlefield... awesome.

The Bulat missile seems to be larger calibre than the 57mm grenade so it might be a 65-75mm calibre missile?

Would be interesting if they did develop a version to be carried in an 80mm rocket launcher pod... 80mm rockets are rather long so there would be plenty of capacity in the launch tube to put a rear mounted first stage booster rocket to blow it out of the tube and on the way to the target... you could loft it into the air for extended range reach as there is no wire dragging behind it so if the booster rocket burns out at say 500m/s it could delay igniting its own motor till it started to slow down and reach targets a good distance away... and remember the new rectangular rocket launchers for ground and air vehicles to carry... make it much more versatile....

Is it a tungsten round ? IMO it should be a basic metal because there is no need for the expensive tungsten against light vehickes and they tend to desintegrate easier creater lot of shrapnels contrary to tungsten that is too strong and would just go throughand make a tiny hole.

But it's strange that they didn't think about a APHE. They are the best shells against light vehicles.

APHE tend to be full calibre shells and I suspect this only works with this size round because the very small thin dart like projectile leaves enough volume for a good amount of propellent to get a nice high velocity.

If the projectile needed a decent sized HE charge then there would be enough space for propellent so it would end up being a low velocity round with poor penetration... and they already have a huge HE round which also explodes on the outside of armour.

I definitely agree that HE is vastly more effective in terms of terminal effect on target but you would need a 57mm high velocity round like the 57mm high velocity gun round for that... the S-60 AA gun had an excellent APHE round but being an old AA gun the armour piercing and the HE rounds had to have a similar weight and a similar velocity otherwise when firing a mixed clip the different rounds would go to different points of aim.

With modern digital fire control systems it probably detects the round currently loaded and puts the aiming point through the sight to show where the round will hit... place that dot on the target and fire...

A mixed belt of HE and APFSDS rounds means the points of aim would shift wildly for each round but you are unlikely to want to shoot both HE and AP rounds at a single target anyway.

They could probably make it a tungsten tip with a mild steel core or it could be tungsten capped and a cheaper projectile material for mass... it all depends on the target I suspect they might save the APFSDS rounds for the very hard targets and just use HEAT rounds for everything else perhaps and a HE for soft and area targets... they certainly will have plenty of missiles too.

Note this is not a 125mm gun, so while a APFSDS round won't obliterate an IFV... a burst of 4-5 rounds to the turret and hull could do some serious terminal damage.

"Boomerang" is redesigned for a new armored hull

As reported on April 6, 2020, the TASS news agency, modified after preliminary tests of the BTR and BMP Boomerang, will receive an enlarged hull with improved buoyancy. This will increase the armor of vehicles during water operations, TASS was told in the press service of the Military Industrial Company (VPK), which developed the Boomerang platform.

"Boomerang" has already completed preliminary tests, the results of which made some improvements. In particular, the armored hull has been expanded slightly, the displacement will increase and, accordingly, the buoyancy of a combat vehicle will increase, "the military-industrial complex said. The company added that as a result," armored vehicles capable of operating on water will be able to enhance armor protection with additional mounted elements. "

In addition to increased buoyancy, the new hull will allow for more comfortable placement of troops in full gear. "This will have a positive effect on the speed of dismounting troops from the vehicle and on the reduction of its fatigue during long marches," the VPK press service noted.

On December 3, VPK General Director Alexander Krasovitsky told TASS that the company, together with the Russian Ministry of Defense, had completed preliminary tests of prototypes of the K-16 armored personnel carrier (BTR) and K-17 infantry fighting vehicle (BMP) on the promising Boomerang wheeled chassis. According to him, the samples confirmed the specifications stated in the statement of work.

Then he said that the assembly of new prototypes had begun as part of the Boomerang experimental design work (R&D) for state testing. In addition, in the Nizhny Novgorod Military Engineering Center (part of the company’s circuit), there is already a ready-made new armored hull based on which an assembly of a full-size mock-up of a combat vehicle for ballistic tests and mine resistance tests is underway.

In December 2019, the military-industrial complex reported that the state tests of the armored personnel carrier and BMP "Boomerang" will begin in the summer of 2020.

OKR "Boomerang"

Boomerang is a promising unified wheeled armored military-industrial development platform. On its basis, the wheeled BMP K-17 was created, first shown to the public in 2015 at the Victory Parade, as well as the K-16 armored personnel carrier. In the basic version, the K-17 BMP is equipped with an Epoch combat module with a 30-mm automatic cannon with a coaxial 7.62-mm machine gun and Kornet anti-tank missiles. The K-16 armored personnel carrier is equipped with a combat module with a 12.7 mm machine gun.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3982034.html

Bulat looks like it's 1/3 the width of Kornet, or something like 50mm in diameter. What's really intriguing is if they decide to integrate Bulat with the man portable versions, to give them options in engaging targets. If Bulat is 50mm in diameter, they could probably fit 9 Bulats in a 152mm diameter tube, almost like pod rockets for manpower. A crew of 4 in a ATGM team could have one guy carrying the optical stand, 2 guys carrying 2 HEAT ATGM's each (4 total HEAT munitions), and the last guy carrying 2 tubes of 9 bulat carrying canisters, giving a total of 18 Bulats to engage soft targets.....sound's quite formidable!

Or just one in a launch canister. Every soldier could carry one. A little more expensive then the RPG-28 or so but more effective at longer range.

Mindstorm wrote:
And what should be the reason to provide Булат with a speed of 1000 m/s ?
I presume that you image that a Курганец-25's operator in mobile engagement will use it at reduced range aginst the fire of medium caliber autocannon......

Sorry my mistake, I get confused between the Bulat and the 57mm ammo.

Mindstorm wrote:Булат is a guided missile and will enjoy a substantial stand-off range against enemy IFVs on the motion, having those ready missiles (together with the 4 Корнет) allow Курганец-25's operator to dictate the terms of the battle, in particular those weapons will force enemy fighting vehicles to remain behind covers or in defilade in fixed position, becoming in this way, easy prey of concentrated indirect fire or same 57 mm rounds with programmable detonation.

I’m not so sure that the American and in some degree the European will be an easy prey.
One day the American will get the 50mm gun on there IFVs instead of there 25mm gun and that will change the distance of engagement. The European countries get the 35 & 40mm guns on there IFVs and most of all they manufacture and buying the new Spike-ER ATGM that has range of 10 km. So I’m not so sure that the Bulat will have any advantage against them.
And that’s way I prefer to have extra 4 Kornet than 8 Bulat’s missiles.
You know the say” see first shoot first hit first”, so I would like to see ISR Drone in the air, the 57mm high velocity replacing the 30mm gun on every IFV/BMP, and the Berezhok or the Epoch turret on each APC/BTR.

Thanks Mindstorm for the nice Pictures, and thanks GarryB for his adding that help me to understand.

GarryB wrote:The Bulat missile seems to be larger calibre than the 57mm grenade so it might be a 65-75mm calibre missile?

Hi Garry Look how the 5 tubes on this launcher are close to Bulat's launcher.

Mindstorm wrote:

Булат is a guided missile and will enjoy a substantial stand-off range against enemy IFVs on the motion, having those ready missiles (together with the 4 Корнет) allow Курганец-25's operator to dictate the terms of the battle, in particular those weapons will force enemy fighting vehicles to remain behind covers or in defilade in fixed position, becoming in this way, easy prey of concentrated indirect fire or same 57 mm rounds with programmable detonation.

Mindstorm Wrote:

Yes the 3БМ76 is the projectile and to the right you have its 3УБМ21 round and is integrated also in the reduced ballistic 2A94 gun to engage at stand-off distance the new generation of foreign enemy IFV together with the "Булат" and or "Корнет"

Is “reduced ballistic 2A94 gun” is a better name than AGL?
Is the 3УБМ21 round is also used in the 57mm gun used by the AU-220M?

Bulat looks like it's 1/3 the width of Kornet, or something like 50mm in diameter.

I would say it would be better to compare with the 57mm calibre grenade on the table next to it... and the Bulat looks to be a bigger calibre than that... in fact the narrow rear of the Bulat looks larger than 57mm so the body is probably 65-75mm calibre at its widest point I would guess.

As reported on April 6, 2020, the TASS news agency, modified after preliminary tests of the BTR and BMP Boomerang, will receive an enlarged hull with improved buoyancy. This will increase the armor of vehicles during water operations, TASS was told in the press service of the Military Industrial Company (VPK), which developed the Boomerang platform.

See the value of proper testing, they determined they needed to make it bigger so they are going to do so... one would expect the testing of the Armata and Kurganets and Typhoon platforms might also lead to some fundamental changes to the basic design before they put them in full production...

What's really intriguing is if they decide to integrate Bulat with the man portable versions, to give them options in engaging targets. If Bulat is 50mm in diameter, they could probably fit 9 Bulats in a 152mm diameter tube, almost like pod rockets for manpower. A crew of 4 in a ATGM team could have one guy carrying the optical stand, 2 guys carrying 2 HEAT ATGM's each (4 total HEAT munitions), and the last guy carrying 2 tubes of 9 bulat carrying canisters, giving a total of 18 Bulats to engage soft targets.....sound's quite formidable!

The problem would be that they would need to carry a launcher a bit like the Kornet launcher... which is quite a bit bigger than the one for Metis and includes a laser beam to guide the missile. These missiles would be similar to RPG-18 rockets I would suspect in terms of calibre and weight perhaps so you could probably carry 4-5 per person comfortably... in the photo above the Kornet is a 152mm missile so you could probably carry 3-4 for every Kornet you would normally carry... but keep in mind Kornet is NOT a man portable light infantry missile... you would need a light vehicle to haul around the launcher and missiles... which are about 35kgs each.  In comparison the Metis missile system has missiles that are about 14kgs each... There was talk of a new model faster Metis-M2 with a flight range of 3km... but that might just be a laser beam riding model...

One day the American will get the 50mm gun on there IFVs instead of there 25mm gun and that will change the distance of engagement.

Changing to a 50mm gun won't massively increase their effective range... they changed from a 25mm gun because the 25mm gun wont be effective at any range soon...

The European countries get the 35 & 40mm guns on there IFVs and most of all they manufacture and buying the new Spike-ER ATGM that has range of 10 km. So I’m not so sure that the Bulat will have any advantage against them.
And that’s way I prefer to have extra 4 Kornet than 8 Bulat’s missiles.

But what against?  Against an Armata division then how will Spike perform against a modern APS system and a group of vehicles which all have MBT level protection... I mean even a Boomerang division has better armour than current BMPs like the BMP-3, and that is all the vehicles... today a tank division has BMPs and BTRs and MTLBs that are barely bullet proof and not HMG proof... every Boomerang based vehicle will need a 30mm gun or better to even have a chance of being threatening...

Thanks Mindstorm for the nice Pictures, and thanks GarryB for his adding that help me to understand.

Finding this stuff out together is fun...

Hi Garry Look how the 5 tubes on this launcher are close to Bulat's launcher.

Well it will be interesting when we do find out the actual calibre of the missiles... will be interesting.

I mean in aviation rockets they have 57mm (16 and 32 tube) calibre, 80mm (7 and 20 tube) calibre, 122mm (five tube) calibre, and also a single tube 266mm calibre rocket pod range of existing types...

The more I see those new rocket pod launchers the more I like them...

Is the 3УБМ21 round is also used in the 57mm gun used by the AU-220M?

AFAIK the AU-220M uses the standard 57mm gun of the S-60 AA gun and has a large bottle shaped shell case... we have seen them firing and it does not have the same straight walled case these rounds have.

Way do we need a 57mm AGL that can shoot Low Velocity rounds and High Velocity rounds? Those rounds are used for different activities. For example I will use the Low Velocity with a bigger warhead in urban city, and the High Velocity in open area against soft targets and against short live targets. But for better use, I’ll use the 57mm high velocity rounds like the 3УБМ21 with the AU-220M turret, and the 57mm low velocity rounds like the 3ОФ91 57mm HE grenade with the Epoch turret.

It is more to do with the rounds themselves... a HE round does not really benefit from high velocity... it does benefit from being bigger and heavier with more HE mixture to make it more powerful. AP on the other hand loses velocity with large volume heavy projectiles which reduces performance.

Most vehicles will come across a range of targets from area targets like troops in the open or hard targets like an enemy vehicle or bunker or building so having a variety of ammo means it can deal more effectively with what ever it encounters.

For the original 57mm gun there was a problem... you have to fire the different rounds through the same gun at the same target... so you would fire a mix of APHE and also HE Frag, but the HE Frag benefits from being slow and heavy while velocity improves penetration for the APHE... but because they were both being fired at aircraft the level of penetration didn't need to be high so both rounds could be made with a similar speed and weight so they both hit the same point of aim.

If you want to use it against a mix of armoured ground targets and soft targets like troops or aircraft then you need a much better penetrator. Sacrificing the APHE for a small dart means you can load up a lot more propellent so instead of 1,000m/s you should be able to manage 1,400m/s with the extra propellent and lighter projectile. Such high velocity is of no value to the HE round in fact even reducing its speed to perhaps 600m/s but with more mass could greatly improve its performance on target by making a much bigger boom with more metal fragments to damage the target.

The problem now is that you can't fire them in a belt because the HE rounds will drop short and the high velocity AP rounds will fly over the target.

Obviously if the target is heavily armoured then you use only the APFSDS rounds but if it is soft you use the HE Frag rounds and aim accordingly.

This is brilliant because instead of compromised performance like with the 30mm rounds or 57mm rounds you can get much better performance for the different round types.

A gun that can fire powerful and effective heavy HE rounds is very useful on an IFV... that is why the BMP-3 has a 100mm rifled gun... those 100mm rounds look a lot like the 57mm grenade above... all projectile with a tiny stub propellent charge, but a high velocity armour penetrating round is also valuable because they are harder to stop than HEAT rounds and give rather more consistent penetration performance against a range of targets...

Look at early WWII tanks... those terrible multi turret monstrosities the Soviets built and the British talked about but never made many of needed different guns for different roles... normally a stub 76.2mm gun for HE rounds, and a 37mm or 45mm high velocity gun to penetrate armour.

They tested the T-34 with a 57mm high velocity gun at the start of WWII and it could penetrate Tigers and Panthers when they entered service but the HE projectile was not powerful enough so they went with a 76.2mm gun that had a better HE shell and an AP round that was good enough... they later replaced it with an 85mm gun with better anti armour performance but still a good HE round.

Very simply infantry support tanks had HE oriented guns or machine guns, while anti tank tanks had high velocity small calibre guns for penetrating armour and not much else. It wasn't quite so bad for the Soviets because their 45mm guns had a HE round, which the British 40mm tanks guns did not.

A high pressure "grenade launcher" make the vehicle using it much more flexible and capable against a range of targets and threats... remember in a very modern vehicle these will have modern thermals and battle management systems... when they see a set of helicopter main rotors behind a tree they can fire a burst of APFSDS penetrators through the tree at the attack helo who thought he was safe...

AJ-47 wrote:I’m not so sure that the American and in some degree the European will be an easy prey.
One day the American will get the 50mm gun on there IFVs instead of there 25mm gun and that will change the distance of engagement.

Depend on what "50mm" gun and rounds Americans will deploy, if this "50 mm" is an half way abortion like today its so called 50 mm rounds - the supershot 50 ,a '90 years old product, that is in reality nothing more than a full boresize modification of the 35 x 228 mm Oerkilon sharing even the same chase basis and the gun is practically the same of the 35 x 228 mm with merely an elongated barrel - all US light armoured vehicles will be crushingly outgunned by almost all the new domestic vehicles of the three families even without taking into account the entire missile complement - heavy and light- and the standard ECM suite, reduced radar/IR signature, and in-built soft and hard kill active protection systems.  




From 1.34.

From this document of Anthony G Williams (maybe the greater western expert in medium light to caliber guns and ammunitions) you can see that the energetic yield of super shot 50 is about 600 Kj against the 400 of the 35 x 228 mm

About the kinetic yield of a Russian 57 mm round you can read by yourself why it is not included in the chart

The chart below gives another form of comparison, based on the approximate
muzzle energies of the rounds. I am not quoting penetration figures because of the
problems in finding exactly comparable data, but other things being equal (especially
penetrator design) muzzle energy is a good indicator of relative performance in
respect of armour penetration potential. You can see that not all 40 mm rounds are
equal and that the 35 mm is unusually powerful for the calibre. The Russian 57mm is
omitted as it would be way off the scale


http://quarryhs.co.uk/CANNON2.pdf


The reason for that relatively little increase in kimetic yield over the 35 mm is that you can ask only so much from an adaptation of a 35 mm round with a bigger wharhead; the increased mass of the round in the same ammunititon chase in the same gun used for the 35 mm round with merely some modifications ,in terms of barrel's lenght and feed, limit what you can obtain from a similar product.

US designers have a very long technological way to go before coming even only near to what domestic companies are now in terms of turrett robotization, new generation of APS design, guided and unguided weapon conceiving and integration in the LAV turrett, dynamic protection and armor composition.

AJ-47 wrote:The European countries get the 35 & 40mm guns on there IFVs and most of all they manufacture and buying the new Spike-ER ATGM that has range of 10 km

Not. Europeans are attempting to integrate, with not great success, two Israeli Spike-LR (not ER that is much more bigger and heavier and requiring another level of command suite in the vehicle unavailable in an IFV) that in the best case scenario - not -lofted trajectory and in absence of air perturbation that interfere with its aerodynamic actuators that has caused often it to not surpass trials in several nations wanting to acquire it - show an engagement range a bit less that first version of Корнет, not the new iteration, but with significantly lower speed , inferior warhead penetration, incomparably greater susceptibility to ECM and APS.

Putting those half attempts Frankenstein in the same sentence with Эпоха's turrett is truly offensive of Federation's designers.

While a Puma , a Patria or a CV-90 will attempt to employ one of its two spike LR on its way at a much Greater speed would come a pair of Булат missiles, on 8 at enemy disposition, followed maybe also by a Корнет among 4.