Algeria People's National Armed Forces

ALAMO wrote:Those are very old and worn.
A Mach3.0 plane is a kind different from the tank, you know
Last one in Russia was removed from service... 30 years ago or something?

Algeria put there into storage last year. So those could be still in good condition

I think Alamo is trying to say that they stopped working on MiG-25s in Russia (and therefore working on upgrades and improvements) 25 years ago in Russia.

I am not sure Algeria wants Kinzhal missiles.

30 years ago or something?

A handful of MiG-25R were used until the end of 2013.

GarryB wrote:I think Alamo is trying to say that they stopped working on MiG-25s in Russia (and therefore working on upgrades and improvements) 25 years ago in Russia.

I am not sure Algeria wants Kinzhal missiles.

I think after Kinzhals success in Ukraine who wouldn't want such a system even if it's used as a deterrent?

Its ability to reach almost any target gives it the power many nuclear weapons don't possess... there are lots of things that are restricted for export for a lot of reasons... things like MANPADS and landmines and anti ship missiles.

The west are being arseholes, but handing out powerful weapons like lollies... especially when they are not being asked for, sounds a bit too brave when brave is not always called for.

ATM I would say even their cruise missiles and club family missiles would be of interest to many countries, along with their air defence systems and drones too of course... when this conflict ends they will likely continue making weapons for a while, both to restore stocks, but also meet international demand.

Depending on how this ends perhaps even Hungary and Turkey might want to get rid of their crap and buy some decent weapons... perhaps even a few joint ventures to make some new stuff even...

The Turkish had an attack helicopter that had a 20mm three barrel American gatling gun... I always thought it would be much better with the twin barrel 23mm cannon used on the current Hinds.... helicopter guns don't need massive velocity, in fact lower velocity means less recoil and potentially a higher rate of fire which delivers more rounds on target per burst. The 23x115mm Soviet gun fires about 55 shells a second which are quite heavy for its calibre, and the round it fires has a moderate muzzle velocity of about 700m/s and is rather a compact round you should be able to carry a lot of rounds for.

I would say a long term ally like Algeria wouldn't be a risk and they are a good customer for Russia.
They already use T-90, TOS, Smerch, BMPT, Iskander, TOR-M2, BUK-M2, Pantsir S1/SM, S-300, S-400, Sa-24, Kornet, krasnpol, Kasta radar, Orion EW system, Acacia-E system, Su-30m, Mig-29M2, Mi-28, Steregushchiy class ships, and improved kilo class subs. All modern and sophisticated systems and although some will be downgraded E export variants nothing to say Russia can't do a Kinzhal-E variant. During the Syrian conflict quite a few countries showed interest in Russian equipment while it was used in combat I would imagine the same is happening now, although some countries maybe be put off due to current political sanctions etc, but once the Ukraine war is over and dust has settled, that's when the sales will come flooding in, and Russia should grab the opportunity not only will it help with production costs for it's own domestic purchases, but help fill the coffers for the Russian economy as well as the possibility of new customers. The way I always see it, if a customer buys from Russia a certain system then it is a sale for Russia and a lost sale for everyone else. And as u said new joint ventures, and it could be a great opportunity for joint venture into the Su-75 checkmate. The west will still be trying to play catch up with ammo stocks, artillery and armour technically giving Russia a bit of breathing space to focus on newer systems and as u said replenish. As well as the monumental task of rebuilding Ukraine (hopefully with BRICS nations investment as well) China may well expand the one belt one initiative/silk road into Ukraine. We pretty much know that Europe will eventually go back to trading with Russia.

I would say a long term ally like Algeria wouldn't be a risk and they are a good customer for Russia.

I have every confidence in the country of Algeria, and they certainly are a good customer... rejecting MiG-29SMTs not withstanding... but who doesn't want Su-30s for the price of MiG-29SMTs?

What I am worried about is that this would make Algeria a real target for the west and it would create pressure and stress where there really does not need to be any.

Equally there are cases where the Israelis flew in to arab countries and captured SA-8 vehicles and flew them out for intel, and by paying a few locals the CIA might get hold of some new technology to make western weapons better... for no real gain.

Honestly I look forward to the day when Algeria can buy 200 Su-75 Checkmate fighters and totally dominate their airspace in a way that makes their European neighbours very jealous and probably angry that they can have a 5th gen light fighter that is affordable and capable at the same time... while Europe will still be flying 4th gen aircraft.

that's when the sales will come flooding in, and Russia should grab the opportunity not only will it help with production costs for it's own domestic purchases, but help fill the coffers for the Russian economy as well as the possibility of new customers.

Export orders are where the Russian MIC actually make money on their products because they can often earn 20-30% profit margins, which they are not allowed to do with domestic orders, and this really does provide money for tooling upgrades and R and D work to improve design and development procedures etc etc.

On another thread it was discussed that Iskander is probably rather more missile than they actually need and a smaller lighter simpler missile that does not manouver but still hits its target would be an interesting addition. They could use some Iskanders to take down the enemy air defence systems and then the cheaper basic models to hit targets once the defences were defeated.

Iskander is almost 4 tons with a flight range of 500km... a rocket that goes up and the engine burns out and then it falls down... a bit like throwing a rock... with control surfaces to allow it to steer into the target on the ground after the rocket motor has run out would either make it half the weight or even lighter, with the same range, or double or triple the flight range of the missile. Considering the air launched model and the ground launched model can evade air defences and still hit SAMs and their radar and control centres then the follow up missiles could be less capable and much cheaper and follow up that initial attack in enormous numbers.

A ground launched 4 ton cheap missile might reach 2,000km, so it could be used in the ground launched version with the air launched version that gets there first and takes out major SAM defences, while a 1 or two ton missile could be loaded four to a launcher and operate with a normal Iskander battery, where the normal Iskander missile does the SEAD prep of the enemy position and then the cheaper lighter smaller missiles clean up the targets on the cheap.

You could even have an air launched version of both cheap missiles that reach rather further and would be effective against unprotected or unaware targets...

As well as the monumental task of rebuilding Ukraine (hopefully with BRICS nations investment as well) China may well expand the one belt one initiative/silk road into Ukraine. We pretty much know that Europe will eventually go back to trading with Russia.

Well the irony is that there is a lot of trade and work in rebuilding a country, which western companies have made look bad because they **** it up and just use it to steal from the locals and their own governments with substandard materials and workmanship... it is just an extension of the corruption of the US MIC.

If you do it right not only do you transform these regions, but it encourages growth and development and pretty soon these regions will be generating tax revenue and the places come alive. Chechnia seems to be transformed... you can bet if there were areas there still broken and damaged the west would be there filming crying about how bad Putin is still punishing the Chechens etc etc. I mean all that group of nutters did was murder people going to a theatre and some primary school children and their families and Russia tries to make them out to be the bad guys.

Well enough good guys step up and take control and steer things in a much more positive direction and everyone on the ground benefits.

Weren't there jokes about how if the US could get Russia to bomb Chicago that the Russians would come in and fix everything up afterwards and the region would be transformed... it would be worth having a war to get the end of war makeover and repair.

But westerners have taken the US lead... when something breaks or is no longer useful you throw it away and get a new one... Iphones,.. old people... young people...

Agreed of most it, apart from the point on CIA stealing tech etc, if that was the worry then wouldn't Russia have refused the sale of TOR-M2, Pantsir S1 SM and S-400, the latter is far better than the western AD systems.

The point about the rejection of SMT was because Russia sold worn airframes not new which I think Algeria had every right to complain about but they did years later buy Mig-29M2

The point about the rejection of SMT was because Russia sold worn airframes not new which I think Algeria had every right to complain about but they did years later buy Mig-29M2

SMT is an upgrade, not a new aircraft build, and the aircraft they applied the upgrade were several years old but had not left the factory and had never flown... they were to be the next off the serial production line when the orders stopped, so essentially they are new as in unused.

It was just an excuse to get out of the contract so they could get Flankers instead.

Agreed of most it, apart from the point on CIA stealing tech etc, if that was the worry then wouldn't Russia have refused the sale of TOR-M2, Pantsir S1 SM and S-400, the latter is far better than the western AD systems.

The funniest thing is it is not about technology... the TOR and Pantsir are simple cheap command guided missiles... the radar and EO systems are sophisticated and expensive (relatively), but nothing the US doesn't have, and the missiles themselves are command guided... there is nothing in either system beyond Americas technology capacity.

The problem is that in the US air defence is the job of the air force and they prefer to use fighter aircraft and AWACS platforms to deal with enemy air power.

US Army air defence is mediocre because they expect their air force to take and maintain air control.

What the Ukraine conflict shows is that Soviet systems are dangerous even on their own, and devastating linked and working together... and newer systems coming on line just make things worse because SOSNA very small and reaches up high and does not need a radar, while 2S38, with its 57mm gun will be a serious threat to CAS and helicopters and low flying aircraft including drones.

Western air defence is massively underfunded and under represented on the battlefield... the Russians have a complete range of SAMs for its Army and a different set of SAMs for its Air Force/PVO and Naval forces... Igla-S and Verba for MANPADS, Kornet/SOSNA for drones, TOR, Tunguska, Buk, Viking, S-300V4... and S-500 for long range ballistic weapons which might be used against HQs and comms centres or major installations for the Army, while Igla-S and Verba and SA-13 being replaced by SOSNA, shelterised TOR and Pantsir and S-350, and S-400 and S-500 for the Air Force and air defence... and very much related missiles and gun systems for the Navy too.

Add to that all the electronics systems... sensors and radars and networking and management systems coordinating everything together for efficient and effective use... and they are only getting better with this new conflict.

In a Report from France a senior French military officer said that sending French troops to the conflict in the Ukraine would be like sending cheerleaders to a sports game. An admission that the Russian forces are formidable... that will of course be ignored in the west because it does not suit their agenda.

I would imagine that's the perfect reason (the west underfunded AD sector) for them to want to get hold of S-400 etc. but also it's rumoured S-300 and S-400 can track and take out F-35 the west would love to get there hands on these systems and more, the British went out there way to obtain T-80 tanks which at time wasn't exactly high tech, but the west has always had an obsession about obtaining Russian equipment to study for weaknesses but also in regards to AD systems where the west fully well knows that Russian systems are superior to theirs. But Russia was still willing to sell S-400, and yes it will be downgraded in some way, but kinzhal isn't has high tech as we think, based on iskander which has already been sold in E format so why not make and sell kinzhal-E Russia can make some money while pissing off the west by selling such dangerous weapons to Algeria, Iran, China, India, and maybe Turkey. (The Russians trusted them with S-400) And I think with the performance of kinzhal in Ukraine countries would be willing to pay high prices to buy such a win win for Russia

Although the source isn't always the Greatest hopefully some truth in the matter.

reports indicating that Algeria is close to acquiring the advanced aircraft. Algeria is considering transferring its aging fleet of MiG-29 fighters to Sudan while purchasing an undisclosed number of Su-57s and up to 70 Su-30 jets.

The Arab-language Defense Arabic reported over the weekend that Algiers could transfer its aging fleet of Russian Mikoyan MiG-29 (NATO reporting name Fulcrum) fighters to Sudan, and acquire an undisclosed number of Su-57s along with upwards of 70 Sukhoi Su-30 (NATO reporting Flanker C).

The Algerian Air Force received around 30 MiG-29s in the late 1990s as part of "a trilateral contract with Russia and Belarus," and the fighters were "expected to take on a significantly larger role within the Algerian Air Force. However, this vision changed when the purchase of the more advanced MiG-29SMT fighters was halted in 2006, resulting in the aircraft being returned to Russia," Defense Arabic explained.

the Su-30MKA, after acquiring 16 of the latest export models of the Flanker, but has long been mentioned as a potential buyer of the Felon – and perhaps among the few nations that might still have confidence that Russia can produce and deliver the aircraft in a timely fashion. UAC has struggled to produce the aircraft in significant numbers, even as the Kremlin claimed that the Su-57 is now in serial production.

BulgarianMilitary.com also reported that Algeria has been steadily decommissioning its older MiG-29 aircraft, while Algiers has acquired more than a dozen more advanced MiG-29M fighters along with the Su-30MKAs – making it among the most capable North African air forces.

The remainder of Algeria's older MiG-29s could head to Sudan, as the two nations forge a closer relationship but it follows a trend from Algiers to provide military assistance to its regional partners.

"If Algeria secures the Su-57 and Sudan acquires the MiG-29, the military and geopolitical dynamics in the region will shift dramatically," BulgarianMilitary.com explained, and cited military expert Alexander Goltz, who offered the analysis that the Felon could provide Algiers with "significant advantages in air operations, bolstering its status as a predominant force in North Africa

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russia-might-have-just-sold-its-su-57-felon-stealth-fighter-212892

Wouldn't put an huge amount of trust in the National interest...

Regarding keeping things secret you have to keep in mind that exported products are not the same as the types used domestically most of the time.

Sometimes, though, they can be better... the domestic Pantsir was improved with money from the UAE because that customer wanted better and was prepared to pay for it.

This made the system more expensive, but also more capable...

During the 1990s when the Cold War was over and everyone was buddies the Russians and other former Soviet states sold all sorts of things to the west... Tunguska, T-80, SA-12, and other stuff too.

There were secret parts they did not sell, but a lot of their stuff was certainly compromised... but that money earned actually enabled them to survive a period selling nothing at all.

They even sold an early model Kh-31 to the US Navy as a target drone they designated the MA-31.

It was safe to sell them to the US because the missile shell... which is 3-4 metres long is made from a single piece of titanium and the US can't make them.

The biggest American forges for making titanium parts are big enough to hold a coffee cup sized part. On Combat Approved the presenter climbed inside the forge designed to make the Kh-31 missiles... A US professional mentioned the forges he works with are coffee cup sized. I didn't have the heart to mention that the titanium forge rebuilt to create the swing wing box structure for the Tu-160 is probably bigger than most New York Apartments...

In fact it was a lack of such a forge which was used as the reason why no more Tu-160s will be made... in discussions I was having in the 1990s...

I also remember having discussions with Jonesy on a website forum for the Air Forces monthly and Air International magazines, where he said the core problem with the Soviet and Russian navy is that it went for high speed missiles that are always going to be big and huge and heavy and expensive and will never be carried in numbers as the US Harpoon and Tomahawk will be carried... That hasn't aged well either really, though to be fair the solution has been implimented but they still need to put more medium and large ships with numbers of missile tubes to actually make a difference.

Of course the promise of stealth is that one missile can sneak through and get a kill, but with speed you are accepting the air defence is present and effective and you are just trying to overwhelm its capacity to deal with threats coming in large numbers and at high speeds.

Of course Zircon means a single missile can defeat the defences and has all the advantages of stealth even though it will be detected... it is effective because there is not a lot they can do about it... other than a volley of nuclear warhead detonations in its flight path... which is going to seriously mess up the defensive radar detection capacity by ionising the air and making them blind.

The point is that they sold stuff to the west but they didn't sell the really secret stuff... they sold Kh-31 but didn't sell Granit or Vulcan or Moskit.

The Ukrainans probably let the Americans look at Tu-160s and parts from it, but that has all been upgraded and likely nothing of the originals really remains now.

In fact the US accessing the MiG-25P was probably the best thing that could have happened because the upgrade improved its performance significantly.

Would say the same about the MiG-31 being compromised and getting an upgrade too.

The Russians don't fear their secrets being found out... many secrets are revealed every time you use something.... if you can't use Su-57s or T-14s or even T-90AMs because you fear they might get captured then they aren't much use if you can't use them. Testing them in real combat is more valuable than keeping them safe and locked away.

Obviously don't hand the enemy your technology on a platter, but most of what they will find is how the Russians manage to get the job done without 2nm computer chips and billions of dollars, which makes it easier to produce in the numbers you need.

Russian and Soviet SAMs are not only widely deployed, but they are designed to be relatively cheap to mass produce so they are mass produced which means they can be used and you are not going to run out any time soon.

That is the aspect of a weapon of war the west ignores... and is suffering now for.

Just a quick snippet from main article

Russian ‘Record Breaking’ Fighter Jet That Algeria Retired A Few Years Back Roars For Revolution Anniversary


However, Tony Osborne, European Defence Editor at Aviation Week, posted a photo of the event, showing two MiG-25s flying in Algeria. “Wow, #Algeria got a couple of its MiG-25s #Foxbat flying again to help celebrate the November 1 Revolution. It was thought these had been retired, as they were the last MiG-25s operational anywhere in the world. Algerian MoD, please hold a MiG-25 spotters day,” he wrote in a post on X (formerly Twitter). Later, a couple of videos showing the aircraft in flight were also published on social media by other military bloggers.

Full article below


https://www.eurasiantimes.com/russias-record-breaking-fighter-jet-that/?amp

A MiG-25 would be a useful testbed for testing new materials and new engines for the MiG-41 project... they likely have a few aircraft and could replace parts that get hot at top speeds with new alloys for testing at high speeds and temperatures, and of course engines that run like turbojets and like ramjets could be installed and tested at mach 3+ speeds.

The top speed of the MiG-25 was engine limited so engines that run like ramjets at high speeds could allow significant increases in flight speeds.

Of course the MiG-25 had 11 ton thrust engines so it would be interesting just fitting the MiG-31s 15 ton thrust engines... would be like adding a MiG-29 engine to an Su-27 (8 tons plus 12 tons plus 12 tons)

But top flight speed is not about power to weight ratio.